Nobles' Club 281: Sitting Bull of the Native Americans

[konata_LS]

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

Your comparison between SB and WvO / Gandhi seems insightful and well founded. In this map, I completely ignored AC and kept trading with his worst enemy (GK) because Dog Soldiers were not afraid of Praets. When playing as a leader other than SB, before getting longbows, I never dare to irritate AC like I did in this NC.

The 3- cc and gold mines certainly are of great help for the early development, and also for the post-war recovery. Without the two gold mines, I would surely have been on strike. TBH, after meeting the neighbours, I think this map is much more generous than I imagined, because there is only one warmonger nearby . I initially thought such a PH stone capital would be circled by AIs like Shaka, Khan and Monty .

 

[krikav]

Regarding the AI Sitting bull himself, he spams units like there is no tomorrow too. I remember a map where he and Ragnar where sharing a somewhat small island that they splitted roughly in half, and those guys where in a bloody feud for the entire game, keeping them both in the stoneage and neither of them making any progress at all. Dogs+Totempole+Protective... it's just hilarious.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Your comparison between SB and WvO / Gandhi seems insightful and well founded. In this map, I completely ignored AC and kept trading with his worst enemy (GK) because Dog Soldiers were not afraid of Praets. When playing as a leader other than SB, before getting longbows, I never dare to irritate AC like I did in this NC.

The 3- cc and gold mines certainly are of great help for the early development, and also for the post-war recovery. Without the two gold mines, I would surely have been on strike. TBH, after meeting the neighbours, I think this map is much more generous than I imagined, because there is only one warmonger nearby . I initially thought such a PH stone capital would be circled by AIs like Shaka, Khan and Monty .

That's Sitting Bull in a nutshell. Other leaders have strong enough economies to make due without the trades or SPI to pull diplo shenanigans, Sitting Bull has the power to make those trades and not die in the process. Also the power to leave behind City Garrison III/Drill I Archers as defenders when you're doing an early rush, and with PRO (and especially Stone up top) you've got dirt cheap Walls too. Most leaders would worry about stray units sniping cities back when doing an early rush. Sitting Bull only worries about the RNG rolling quintuple snake eyes...which, admittedly, is at least one line in Civ IV.txt .

The other leaders on the map have their own dangers, IMP to steal your land and the like, but indeed no leader is as aggressive on this board as Genghis...and his Keshiks aren't as effective against PRO archers (let stand Totem Pole PRO archers) since they lack innate immunity to First Strike. I tend to leave AIs completely random unless I'm going with a very specific gimmick, and this time was no exception. I think the game realized that even if it rolled Toku, Monty and Shaka you still wouldn't die in all likelihood, so it tried to choke you out of land with a bunch of IMP leaders instead .

Regarding the AI Sitting bull himself, he spams units like there is no tomorrow too. I remember a map where he and Ragnar where sharing a somewhat small island that they splitted roughly in half, and those guys where in a bloody feud for the entire game, keeping them both in the stoneage and neither of them making any progress at all. Dogs+Totempole+Protective... it's just hilarious.

Like I said, Sitting Bull does not die. AI Sitting Bull also frequently does not win because he's too focussed on his "unkillable" gimmick and even with good land his massive armies tend to drain his already limited economy too badly, but hey, he doesn't die.

 

[konata_LS]

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

Yes, the leaders in this map are interesting. They have different peaceweight and aggressiveness. Personnally, I think this is one of your "successes" of map creation, because, like the discussion about AH and BW in the previous pages, you've also created a "crossroad" of diplomacy and let the players to make choice.

For example, GK is the most aggressive neighbour in this map, but the good side is he can be bribed into war at Cautious, and he is famous for his slow tech pace. If the player manages to keep GK at Cautious or above, it would not be difficult to bribe him to attack someone else. OTOH, befriending AC also has pros and cons: unlike GK and Vicky, AC doesn't plot at pleased; unfortunately, AC can only be bribed into war at Friendly. Same dilemma about Vicky: she can backstab at pleased, but she can also be bribed at Pleased; she's a decent trading partner, but if she grows too strong, she would become a runaway AI. Thus, in terms of early tech path and diplomacy, you provided the players with a series of trade-offs instead of "one and only possibility".

Maybe you didn't realise it, but with these AIs, you've also added a hidden option to the early wars: HA is certainly good (for Prince and below, chariots are enough), but Elepults is also possible, because Suleiman has extra Ivory and is willing to trade strategic resources at Cautious, as long as the players can afford it. Elepults against GK's keshiks would be fun, though I was unable to try it in my game (my economy after HAs rush couldn't afford another war).

@krikav
As you have noticed, AI Sitting Bull is often disliked by low peaceweight leaders. But SB's highly-promoted archers and Dog soldiers make him much less vulnerable than Gandhi or Hatty, and his resist capitulation is the highest among AIs. So SB is a good candidate to keep warmongers busy: bribe Monty or Shaka to attack SB, and they would be fighting each other for many years, without capitulation .

 

[AcaMetis]

@konata_LS

Spoiler :

That would be why I've learned to keep the AIs as random draws, as much as possible. I couldn't set up a situation like that if I tried, but more often than not the RNG is more than happy to do it for me .

 

[dorhin]

Deity NH/NE

Until 425 BC

Spoiler :

I played the beginning rather fast and didn't take pictures, sorry about that. It was so far a really entertaining, tough game (at least for me)

I settled on the stone, went worker first and teched mining->BW
(I realized just now that there was quite a discussion going on whether AH or BW would be the better choice. My reasoning for going for BW was mainly that there were forests everywhere and only one AH-ressource, which could also be farmed and I was afraid that my worker would have nothing to do at some point. I didn't do any math about it however, BW just seemed like the obvious choice to me).

Before I could settle my second city, Genghis settled NW of the rice, leaving me with no good option to claim the northern gold. I was debating whether I should settle aggressively towards him, but decided that it would be a better choice not to go right in the face of a warmonger. I was still hoping to play a somewhat peaceful game at that point, at least in the beginning.
My second city went on the hill 3 east of the capital, allowing me to work the farmed banana, gold and claiming some forests.

After BW, I teched Animal Husbandry -> The Wheel.

Before I could plant my third city, Genghis settled right in my face (3N2E of capital). This settled the further progress of the game, I had to go for a Horse Archer rush. I do not remember when exactly, but soon after settling in my face, Genghis also showed the red fist. His worst enemy was Victoria but she was not a land target, so I figured he would probably attack me.
The problem was that Genghis settled in a way that would give him the horses north of my capital in the second ring. If I would have settled W or SW of the horses I would have lost them once he got a border pop, as I didn't have mysticism and didn't want to count on a religions spreading to this city. I thus had to go for a city claiming the horse and the corn far in the east, which didn't have any forests to chop.

Further thech path was HBR>Hunting->Archery, which I reached 1200 BC.
I had prechopped most of the forests and was thus able to get a few HAs out quickly. In 1000BC, Genghis declared war on me, threatening my second city (poverty Point). His stack was not too big and I had 1 archer and 2 Dog Soldiers in that city, so I just decided to take his lightly defended in-my-face city Ning Hsia with my HAs.

Genghis initial attack failed and he retreated, with his remaining units. I got a bit cocky (and just plain stupid) and pushed north too fast with my HAs, so he actually was able to take the city back in 900 BC. My HAs wer able to capture Turfan however, which was only very lightly defended. My economy was in shatters and I lost money at 0% research, so I first traded HBR to saladin for pottery + writing and afterwards, after putting some turns into it, was able to trade HBR for alphabet to Augustus.
I was able to bribe Brennus into the war with Genghis for HBR+Alpha and he even gave me Iron working in addition

Genghis kept sending troops and troops to defend Ning Hsia, which for one made it impossible for me to take it back, but it also meant that his core land was not very well defended and made it easier for me to progress.

By 575Bc I had taken two more cities and claimed the only source of metal available to Genghis. At that point he had Keshiks, however, which also caused me quite some losses. On the image, my mouse is hovered over his capital, so he had almost no units in it at that point. He even attacked a chariot that I offered to him with his spear, allowing me to take his capital without too many losses.

By 475BC, Genghis had killed the few units I had fortified in the forest west of Ning Hsia to keep him busy and I was afraid he would go for my capital. I thus quickly conquered 2 more of his cities in the north and made peace.

Augustus is currently the scariest neighbor, he has longbows already and pretortians. I didn't pay too much attention on my neighbors until now, but I think I have to gift him a city to make him like me (he doesn't plot at pleased). The only spot available seems to be the one in the far north (red circle).

The overall tech speed is rather low (due to the jungle?), only Saladin and Augustus are somewaht advanced.

I have not decided yet which religious block to join, jewish civilizations are stronger I think but Brennus is right at my border and would not appreciate it too much if I change into a different religion than budhism.

The aim is now to catch up in tech, maybe go for construction and finish off Genghis.

 

[Jellybug]

Giving this a go on Immortal difficulty

Spoiler 1040AD :

Did a three city horse archer attack on Mongolia. Trimmed him down from 7 cities to just three. I took two cities, then ceasefire, then picked off his next settler party and a bunch of roaming chariots to reaggro and take the capital. Left him alive, for better or worse, just because I didn't know where his final city was, and because I had bad luck on the last city and ran out of steam. I wasn't sure whether to take the fight to Vicky afterward, because she didn't have monarchy yet and I could probably have done real damage. That said, I didn't have any friends and I was down to +7 at 0% research and I thought it would be better if I didn't piss off the entire buddhist bloc, so I instead decided to sit on my cities, backfill a bit, and recover. It's going smoothly so far.

Mongolia randomly declared so I've just been keeping him at bay. Will sweep him with upgraded cuirs, then continue to Rome. I actually bribed Turkey in on the "war" because philosophy was no longer a valuable chip to me, and that was all it cost. Four turns away from not regretting it. Rome is plotting meanwhile. Demanded paper just now. I was like lol you need this ten turn treaty more than I do

 

[Jellybug]

Neeew Record

Spoiler Domination 1520 AD :

Tried on Imm. When my rice got jungled over on turn 1, I had a bad feeling. But instead, this normalized score took the top spot on my hall of fame. Will be interesting to read others' experiences on this map. Thank you all for your knowledge and willingness to share it.

Settled on stone, with a mind to pyramids/ construction, but popped horses and audibled to three city HA. Found the land not cramped exactly, but not suitable for rapid expansion due to the huge western jungle, the distance required to travel, and the looming presence of Mongolia threatening to punish any overextension. Settled horses second even with gold nearby because I didn't want to mess around with missing out. The rush went well. Attacked turn 86 with 10 gallopy bois. One thing interesting and abnormal, during/ before the rush I went currency before alpha because i thought i'd get beat to it alpha anyway. I wonder if it was the right play. It delayed iron working, but I wasn't getting calendar any time soon, and didn't need metal. Wound up trading math and HBR for alpha and still managed to broker alpha for IW later. And it really helped ease the pain of acquiring four new cities so quickly

Tech seemed a bit slow this game, eh? Conspicuous absence of Mansa, Willem, Zara, or Darius.

I could have done a better job building marble wonders, but by the time i had currency, I needed code of laws and civil service and i just couldn't be bothered about aesthetics or music right then. I noticed Suleiman had a head start on literature so i didn't worry about it. Instead focused on spreading religion, getting up infrastructure/ building wealth.

Nobody seemed to have any money this game, which prevented me from leveraging my tech advantage. I didn't sell nearly as much tech bc nobody had more than 50 gold at a time. Weird. Wound up kind of squandering code of laws because nobody ever offered me anything good. Founded confucianism and taoism.


The key decision this game was whether to go for more blood with my HA's. I concluded that, although it was definitely possible to take out/ cripple at least one more civ before feudalism, i was worried about getting backstabbed, especially with a snake like Vicki on my shoulder. I could have attacked her and her pyramids of course, but by then, she was tight with Saladin and the Buddhist bloc, and also still tight with with Rome. So I thought it would be better to lay off, solidify my standing on one flank, and use my dogs against Caesar if I have to, which I thankfully didn't.

Honestly I think I crushed this one. All wars fought on my terms, made the right diplo decisions. Waged early war without falling behind in tech. Maybe a little lucky Vicki didn't plot, but I did get her pleased and strategically beg, especially before I declared war. Very nice to have the AP on my side for once. Overall, always could be improved but I'm pleased (maybe even friendly...)

 

[krikav]

Nice going @Jellybug !

 

[Jellybug]

Thank you, @krikav. Interesting debate in the thread about

Spoiler First tech :

BW vs AH. My rice vanished into the jungle within the first five turns, so I went AH. I think it was definitely slower, but I did find the horses and claim them in time, so there's that.

 

[Jellybug]

Also, I forgot to poison anybody's water so I didn't roleplay very well

 

[konata_LS]

@Jellybug

Spoiler :

Congrats on your win! Well played

AH first might delay the founding of your second city, but AH lets you know "where" you should place your second city. I think that's the main reason for those who went AH first.

Your religious choice looked wise, since most of your neighbours were Buddhists. Begging to Vicky also prevented her from backstabbing you. AC hated GK much more than he disliked you, I guess that's why AC didn't declare on you.

SB's PHI trait is nice for earlier GScientists and for generating more GMerchants.
(But yes, you should have poisoned AIs' water over and over again to act like AI SB .)

 

[earthy]

Been a while since I've played, but this one looked too fun to pass up. Gave it a go on immortal.

Spoiler :

i went Mining-BW-AH-Myst(for the gold near Khan)-TW-Pottery-HBR. Horse rushed Genghis like I suspect a lot of people did. Captured his last city in 450AD, and was up to 11 or 12. For some reason mids was just sitting there up for grabs, so I chopped it in his capital with all the forest he left for me. Got an early calendar trade and built the Mausoleum in his capital as well. Bulbed Philo with the first scientist, and after that I was just chaining golden ages. With the Taj, I had 6 golden ages in a row(+- 72 consecutive turns). I was going to finish the map off with a cavalry attack since I was very far ahead, but I felt like having a bit more fun with it so I went for kremlin & rushbuy tanks. Ended up with an 1804AD domination win.

 

[krikav]

@earthy Lovely way to come back, Immortal Kremlinpowered rushbuying of tanks is sweet! No screenshot?

 

[earthy]

@krikav I didn't really take any as I was going because I didn't expect to post, but here's a few I took just now.

Spoiler :

recovering post-Genghis. I do regret how long it took Mesa Verde to get set up with both fish in the second ring and no forest to chop the monument.

start of the second golden age while building taj for #3. didn't get a screenshot of the first one with the big civic switch, so I included the log. slow starving my golden age food out of the double seafood spots.

building kremlin while pushing for democracy because that emancipation anger is real. Genghis' capital made a great production spot,

and some tank madness

 

[krikav]

Aaah, thats nice! An ocean of moneybags!
Emancipation can be quite nice in these games where you mass cottages, that they speed up toward villages/towns adds upp to quite abit of beakers or cash, so there is something in addition to the anger management.

Thumbs up for super stravation golden age too.