Nobles' Club 284: De Gaulle of France

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is De Gaulle of France, whom we last played in NC 249; we last played the French under Louis XIV in NC 255. The French start with Agriculture and The Wheel.

• Traits: De Gaulle is Charismatic and Industrious. Charismatic gives every city, Monuments and Broadcast Towers +1, and decreases the exp required for units to level by 25%. Industrious gives a +50% bonus to all Wonders (World and National), and gives a +100% bonus to Forges.
  
• The UB: The Salon, an Observatory with +1 free Artist, providing +1, +4 and +3 GA . Not a bad bonus for cities facing cultural pressure, but your Great Person Pool will never be free from Great Artist pollution again..
  
• The UU: The Musketeer, a Musketman with 2 instead of 1. If you're attacking someone with Mounted units and are afraid of Pikeman sniping the strongest units in your army, bring along Musketeers as stack defenders. They can keep up with their allies on horseback. Somehow .

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Pangaea, Temperate climate, medium sealevel.

Spoiler edits :

One unworkable Fish was made workable, and the usual strategic resource swaps.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 284 De Gaulle Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

Hmm...two plains hills reachable T1, but one gives up wet Corn and the other gives up both a wet and a dry corn . Warrior is out of position to scout, too, so I'd probably just SIP in this situation. No 2 city tile, which is a shame, but I'll take double Corn and a plains cow to make up for the lost city tile hammers.

Of course that's just my take. What do the experts think ?

 

[krikav]

I think keeping the corns is important, especially the riverside one. Both the plains hills are out of reach from that corn and out of the question imho.
Settlement 1E might be an option? 2E of the lake looks like it's forested so don't need to scout that one so I guess warrior SE makes sense.
If something lovely shows up that warrants a 1E settler move, the warrior can then on T1 move SW (or further east) to see if something good warrants yet another settler move.

 

[SillyGoat]

I think keeping the corns is important, especially the riverside one. Both the plains hills are out of reach from that corn and out of the question imho.
Settlement 1E might be an option? 2E of the lake looks like it's forested so don't need to scout that one so I guess warrior SE makes sense.
If something lovely shows up that warrants a 1E settler move, the warrior can then on T1 move SW (or further east) to see if something good warrants yet another settler move.

Warrior SE to check the fog......and here's an out of the box idea that probably isn't worth doing.....settle on the wet corn if there is something tasty in the fog.

 

[Fabled]

I've been aggressively moving settlers to try and learn what makes a good capitol, but this very much looks like a settle in place start. Clearly I need to start thinking about early scout micro, I wouldn't have come up with krikav's warrior path.

I'm not sure how to best leverage charismatic / industrious. Charismatic seems... bad? You get to be slightly looser with the whip early, I guess. Industrious means there's probably a chance to actually land a wonder instead of just building fail gold, although that would mean adjusting tech priorities to unlock something worth having?

Thinking about a game plan, maybe this is a game to aim for cultural victory on the back of industrious wonders? I might try it regardless, I can't keep up with the emperor tech pace for space and I've thrown away my last several games pushing for dominion.

 

[krikav]

CHA is a pretty neat warmongerer trait. Reaching the second promotion at 4xp helps a ton with construction attacks when catapults only need to withdraw once to reach CR2.
It's also very nice with HA attacks (and also cuirstomps) when you can get either very close to combat3 with barracks+stables+vassalage with 7/8 xp. Those 7/8 xp mounted are actually pretty nice to promote flank+flank2, since they reach a third promotion after a successfull withdrawal.
Or you can get combat3 right out of the gate in some cities with barracks+stables+vass+theo. And those cannons you get to 7/8 with the dual civics too, CR3 cannons after just one promotion!
There are also alot of trickery to pull off with early great generals, where you can lift up a ton of units. Attach a GGeneral to a unit in a stack of 20 units at 3xp (regular barracks builds) and they all reach a second promotion.

 

[Fabled]

There are also alot of trickery to pull off with early great generals, where you can lift up a ton of units. Attach a GGeneral to a unit in a stack of 20 units at 3xp (regular barracks builds) and they all reach a second promotion.

I've never used a great general for any promotions other than stacking a super medic unit, that's a powerful trick!

 

[krikav]

It's not often that the stars align for that strategy to work, but it's very fun when it does!
It's all in the principle of something good now is superior to something possibly better later.

 

[konata_LS]

Good starting techs and decent traits.

One advantage of playing as De Gaulle is it's impossible to have AI Nappy as neighbour .

From T0 to T112

Spoiler :

Settings:


SIP. AH-Pottery-Mining-BW-Writing.
In the first attempt, I planned a HAs rush JC, but just 1 turns before I declared on JC, he DoW on me. I captured his capital and made peace. But I was frustrated by my attack. Maybe I chose the wrong attacking units .


So I tried this map the second time, with Axes rush. Tech remained the same: AH-Pot-Mining-BW-Writing. The only difference was attacking units (change HAs to Axes).

JC disappeared in BC 875.

DoW on JC caused -1 diplomacy penalty with Charlie. Had to gift a city to Charlie so that he wouldn't dogpile me.

On T112, 8 cities 8 workers. In need of more workers. Charlie settled very close to my capital, so I had to look for another source of Horse, on the NW.


Tech situation on T112. Converted to Buddhism made Mehmed and HC unwilling to trade tech . But if I didn't convert to Buddhism, Charlie might attack me .


Still have 10+ Axes.


Units killed:


Must take a break now. Most cities are still building Granaries. I should have chopped more forests around my capital .

A big advantage of playing as de Gaulle is the player won't have AI Nappy as neighbours. JC is troublesome enough .

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

Demigod T87

Spoiler :

SIP and went mining > BW > pottery > mysticism > hunting > AH > writing > maths > construction

My first city went on the FP to get the oasis and share the dry corn and bronze. The second went to the SE of Paris to block Charlie and get the deer and fur. Not great but there's not much on offer and the fact the resources were second ring seemed OK given charismatic monuments are a decent building. The fourth went on the PH north of Paris. It can share the cows and work a farmed FP and there are some green river tiles. Also, it stopped JC settling in my face.

I've got a great scientist and I can get a second in Paris in about 30 turns.

I've dreams of construction into engineering but I'm not sure if that's too ambitious.

I certainly feel I need to attack someone with catapults as I don't think I have enough cities for an engineering attack. I guess I'm going for Charlie. He's on my border, in a war with Shaka and fairly weak. However, his land is pretty garbage, he appears to be a useful buffer between me, Shaka and Toku and I'm worried that, despite being in a war with Shaka, he's trying to convert JC.

I've not scouted Huayna but he has gold and is clearly the tech leader. Given his love of hereditary rule, I assume he'd end up with longbows before I could really do any damage.

I'm scared of JC.

 

[konata_LS]

From T112 to the end.

Spoiler :

Settings as below. No huts.


In 820 AD, Shaka declared on Toku. In 840 AD, HC declared on me. But before he declared, I already noticed HC was plotting through the trade table; I was his only land target so I must get some units to defend my border cities. Built some War Elephant and waited for HC throw his HAs into my WE and Spears. Sent some Elepults to capture a city Huamanga from HC.


Then he made peace with Calendar .


Got Marble from Charlie. Built Taj Mahal. Attack with Cuirs. Mehmed capitulated on T207;


When I attacked HC, HC bribed Shaka and Toku (he capitulated to Shaka) in a war with me. I should have begged something from Shaka before I declared on HC .

Then Charlie declared on Shaka, mainly because Charlie was Pleased with Shaka but Furious with Toku (different religions + border tensions + declared war on his friend). HC capitulated after he lost his capital.

As a result, We Have Enough On Our Hands Right Now :


The situation became tough when Shaka got Rifling. Made peace with Shaka. Declared on Charlie and he capitulated on T234.


After Charlie's capitulation, temporarily stopped building units. Building and to finishi Steel, Rifling and MScience. Built Cannons, Rifles and Grens for the final war with Shaka & Toku.

In 1750 AD, Copper discovered near Orléans


DoW on Shaka on T259.


A large stack is necessary for a war with Shaka, because Espionage showed Shaka had 50+ Rifles and 30+ Cavs. More units were moving towards the front.


Toku disappeared in 1802AD:


In the early Axes rush, I got a CR III Axes (only 8 exp!) and I upgraded him to Grenadier. CHA Gren's combat odd against Shaka's Rifles. So nice


After losing his capital and several cities, Shaka finally capitulated on T281:


Next turn, Conquest:


Built many units, because one useful way to fight against unit-spammers is to become an unit-spammer


Killed 50+ Rifles and 30 Cavs, most from the war with Shaka:


Maybe I didn't play well, but I find this map quite challenging: no Gold or Gem nearby, quickly being boxed in, warmonger/backstabber neighbours, far away Shaka has large amount of land. But capital Copper makes the map more winnable.

No early happy resources in the capital might be an opportunity to leverage CHA's -bonus. In the late game, CHA only needs 8 exp for the awesome CRIII Cannons.
On the other hand, I didn't find much chance to leverage IND - no capital stone or marble, even no Gold for failgold from Shwedagon Paya. I got Marble only through trade. But admittedly, IND did save me some turns on Taj Mahal and Heroic Epic. Cheap forge is also nice.

All the three French leaders are quite good. Usually I enjoy playing as Louis and win Culture, and I like warring as Nappy. This NC makes me realise that playing as de Gaulle is fun as well, even without Marble nearby.

Thanks for the map .

Small note about the map:

Spoiler :

There is a barb island where the player can at least settle two or three cities. Care to create a colony?

 

[Fabled]

Emperor T56. I think part of my problem is I play sessions that are too long so I burn through all my focus and start autopiloting mistakes. Going to try and play more short sessions for this map and see what happens.

Spoiler :

Settled in place. I followed the initial scout moves Krikav pointed out and didn't see any compelling reason to move.

Teched animal husbandry > mining > pottery > bronze working > writing > math. The theory is that a faster pottery gets floodplains cottages online ASAP and lets me put hammers towards granaries, plus the extra charismatic happiness gives me more time to grow to get slavery online. Hopefully having more pop to whip away immediately after the slavery switch makes up for later chops. I'm curious what stronger players think of this tech order.

I'm a little fuzzy on the mechanics of fog busting (is it "barbs can't spawn in revealed tiles" or "barbs can't spawn in the 5x5 square of tiles centered on a unit"?), but the warrior net is enough to keep my workers uninterrupted, so whatever I'm doing is good enough for now.

Paris builds worker > warriors > settler at 4 > warriors > 3 pop whip settler at 6. Orleans and Lyons both build worker > granary.

Orleans settled north on T37 to grab the rice and grow cottages for Paris:



Lyons settled south on T46 to share a corn, secure the river, work cottages for Paris, and keep Holy Rome from pushing into my core area:



My cities feel a bit late this game, but I'm teching well and have parity with the AI so maybe that's fine.

I've met a lot of folks so I'm thinking this is a pangea. That, plus charismatic, plus such close neighbors, is pointing me towards a war game. Who am I kidding - every game is a war game! Regardless, I don't see horses or ivory yet so I'm going to have to cobble together something other than a standard push. Maybe swords + catapults is a reasonable stack? I'm going to start trying to buddy up to Rome and isolating Holy Rome, I don't want to be fighting praetorians until at least medieval tech is online. I still have time to expand and secure resources, so maybe plans will change as I see more of my map and neighbors.

My position at the moment:

 

[krikav]

Nice timing with more activity here! I got tierd of the iso game I was playing and started playing this as well!
I'm up at T100 right now so can check out your spoiler @Fabled
But a short impression about this map... It's a tough one. The strong start is needed!

 

[krikav]

@Fabled

Spoiler :

Emperor T56. I think part of my problem is I play sessions that are too long so I burn through all my focus and start autopiloting mistakes. Going to try and play more short sessions for this map and see what happens.

That happens to everyone of us I think. Easy to lose focus if you play too long, it's nice to take breaks and think about the situation and come back with fresh insights.

Settled in place. I followed the initial scout moves Krikav pointed out and didn't see any compelling reason to move.

Same here!

Teched animal husbandry > mining > pottery > bronze working > writing > math. The theory is that a faster pottery gets floodplains cottages online ASAP and lets me put hammers towards granaries, plus the extra charismatic happiness gives me more time to grow to get slavery online. Hopefully having more pop to whip away immediately after the slavery switch makes up for later chops. I'm curious what stronger players think of this tech order.

I don't like that tech order. Mining doesn't give you much here w/o bronzeworking. It would have been different if we had few forest and multiple riverside naked hills.
Going AH first is certainly an option since the cow provides some essential early hammers. But if AH I don't think mining->pottery is the correct followup. Perhaps a second city by some horses could work?
AH straight into pottery feels risky I think, but maybe that works on emperor. It's sure to give you a nice economy going.

I went mining->BW->AH, going AH after BW is abit greedy but we had TW already and alot of riverside so I figured it was OK.

I'm a little fuzzy on the mechanics of fog busting (is it "barbs can't spawn in revealed tiles" or "barbs can't spawn in the 5x5 square of tiles centered on a unit"?)

It's both. Barbs can't spawn on tiles that are "light up", and they can't spawn in any tile on the 5x5 square around any unit, including other barbs.

Paris builds worker > warriors > settler at 4 > warriors > 3 pop whip settler at 6. Orleans and Lyons both build worker > granary.

Paris build sounds reasonable. I went worker at size5 but not sure that was good. I got good overflow from the warrior (only built one) so after worker the settler was done in 4 turns.
I mined the plains hill after farming both corns, and I wanted to grow before rather than after that mine was finished since it was -2 food and would cause growth to slow down.
New cities should generally not start with building a worker. It's much better if the capital which is more developed and can carry the burden of building a worker better can provide them with workers so they can develop easier.
Alot of the time though, I like juggling tiles between capital and second city, and often times that results in a neat 1pop worker whip.
You do seem to be low on workers. That the copper is still not being improved T46, (6 turns after BW?) is indicative of that. The copper is a nice tile.

Orleans settled north on T37 to grab the rice and grow cottages for Paris:

Lyons settled south on T46 to share a corn, secure the river, work cottages for Paris, and keep Holy Rome from pushing into my core area:


My cities feel a bit late this game, but I'm teching well and have parity with the AI so maybe that's fine.

Okay position for orleans given the tech you knew at the time of settlement. Reasoning is solid, likewise with Lyons.
I went 1W of the copper with my second city. sharing the corn and the copper makes things so much easier.
First and second city can take turns either holding the copper or growing.

I really like Lyons position, thats exacly where I would have placed it if I where not in such a rush for other spots.

I settled T40 and T46 so if they are late we are late together.

I've met a lot of folks so I'm thinking this is a pangea. That, plus charismatic, plus such close neighbors, is pointing me towards a war game. Who am I kidding - every game is a war game! Regardless, I don't see horses or ivory yet so I'm going to have to cobble together something other than a standard push. Maybe swords + catapults is a reasonable stack? I'm going to start trying to buddy up to Rome and isolating Holy Rome, I don't want to be fighting praetorians until at least medieval tech is online. I still have time to expand and secure resources, so maybe plans will change as I see more of my map and neighbors.

Siege and CHA go nice together. If you don't get iron axes+catapults work nicely too, just have to make sure to bring spears to not get gibbed by chariots.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T48 :

Moved as I said in the pre-game discussion and saw no reason to move. Continued south-east. The tundra resources look nice but otherwise the south looks unappealing.
Met Julius early and decided to go mining->BW, capital is low on natural hammers and I figured I would improve both corns and then chop.

Met both Capac and Charly T6 so I felt like the map was really crowded! Put my points on Capac.

Thanks heavens for copper!
Around here I started to plan for a second city 1W of the copper. SE of the oasis is another possible location but I wanted the city center hammer, and I also wanted to keep options open to get the stone somewhat early.
But key with second city here is to share some food, and more important still, to share the copper.
The copper is a lovely 6-yield tile and as such should be worked at all times, but since it's -2F it's a burden to work it while growing.
Having two cities to share that burden is super nice as they can then take turns to hold the copper.
When capital is building settler it holds the copper and second city holds the corn and grows.
When capital wants to grow, second city holds the copper and puts hammers into a worker (to eventually 1pop whip).

T25 Julius settled just north of me, getting that northern rice (not shown in this image) in second ring.

Reaching pop4 from pop3 was super fast, only two turns.
At pop4 I was maybe abit greedy? Perhaps settler right away would have been better, but I wanted to grow abit more before the copper was online. So two turns like this first....

Then the copper wasn't ready, instead of finishing the warrior this turn, I halted growth with the worker for one turn.

Then the copper was online, and I arrange tiles to finish the warrior and reach pop5 with as little food as possible in the food bar, and with as much overflow as possible from the warrior build.

Like this. This didn't turn out even for the worker build, but that overflow in turn rolled onwards into the settler. And once I had the second worker out, and they both got the cow improved...

This was a lovely sight. The overflow and previous turn into the settler gave it 24/100, and now with the cow improved I get 19 food-hammers toward settler, and that evens out at 4 turns. Lovely!
Maybe some other micro could have done better? I roaded the copper instead of going straight for chopping for example.

Second city settled T40. I did not revolt here during transit. Wanted to get out a third worker and a second settler first. Julius is scaring the hell out of me with his nasty axes.

Now it's time for revolt. I'm going 1N of the oasis to get stone and ivory.

Lyons is working the forested plains 3 turns and then the chop finishes the monument. Shaka is plotting already.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T99 :

3pop whipped a settler for the hill, possibly drawing Julius wrath there instead if he gets nasty ideas.
I rushed for yet another settler too, with the intent of gifting him a city, but a barb city spawned in the north-west, and Charly settled in the east, so it looked like there was no spots left so I went south with that settler instead.
I improved quite a few floodplains before finally turning my attention to the desert-stone, so masonry was way to early.

This was one of the most stressfull games I have had in quite some time. Every single "end turn" was a nailbiter since I was so scared that Julius would start plotting. I was SOOO happy when I finally got a buddhist missionary from Charly I revolted right away, but that didn't give me pleased with Julius, however it DID make Capac annoyed with me instead!

Once Julius was up at pleased, it was such a relief to beg for his rice. 10 turns of not fearing Pretorians swarming in at any turn.
I started to mass up some axes quite early both to be able to defend, but also with the idea of conquering that northern barb city and gift it to someone.

Charly is the only one willing to trade with me and everyone hates him. I did not get any diplo hits for this trade though.

Capac took the northern city himself, but this city I got together with 111g. One axe died and I didn't get liberation bonus, but it was enough to get Capac up to cautious and not being his worst enemy anymore at least.
Whipping axes now and overflowing into Statue of Zeus for alot of failgold.
I got pyramids but have not revolted, want organized religion first.

IW from Julius for alpha, I might be able to get that iron. There is one in the south too, but thats really yucky, only ice.

When I'm no longer worst enemy, Capac wants to trade with me. Next turn I get monotheism from Charly for math.
I might have to convert to Judaism and buddy up with Capac and backstab Charly, capac will blaze away shortly I suspect.

Around here I start to gift away Aestethics to almost everyone for diplo points. Starting to feel like the worst period is over. Feels so good to not have died.
Quite cramped, but I got pyramids and some rivers. This should be doable.
During this revolt, I lose the ivory and don't get it back untill Zeus is built. :'(
After that, i decide to go for drama to secure the ivory and the iron with culture.

Theatres up quickly, and then I'll go for globe in capital. Trying to utilize IND abit.
Perhaps I can do some insane whipping with burocracy...?

Meditation next on the off chance that I get a scientist I could bulb Philosophy. Not sure what I should do with a GEng. Perhaps settle the guy or perhaps go litterature and hurrybuild GLib...?

Not sure if I should go for music. Mehmed has litterature and might go there.
Perhaps safer to just go CoL and CS? With this cramped empire burocracy have to pull alot of the weight I think.
I for sure want to go medieval on someone and whipping units with police state and burocracy in a globe powered capital looks great in theory.

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

Glad to see some others having a go at this one. Agreed that it’s a toughie. Got to about T115 yesterday. I’ll try to post properly.

@Fabled I’ve been fighting the urge to binge and playing short turn sets. It’s an aspect of the game I really struggle with and why I doubt I’ll ever become a deity player. I get the impression that you can never really autopilot but if I play short turn sets it can take weeks to get through a game.

@krikav

Spoiler :

I’m interested that you went pyramids. I worried that I wouldn’t have the production if I waited for medieval/cuirassiers given how little space and quality land there is, so I went construction - even without ivory. Pretty sure I didn’t know where the ivory was when I settled city number two and I ruined it with that settle. Anyway I didn’t back myself in a 4/5 city medieval attack and cuirassiers need horses!

 

[krikav]

@Mr_Trotsky

Spoiler :

I like more going for pyramids when space/quality is an issue. When things are tough you need something to do wonders for you!

I think backstabbing Toku-Shaka-peroccupied Charly with catapults would be very much doable if one could handle the pressure of having Julius/Capac looking sternly upon you constantly, twirling their moustaches. :|

I hope Julius or Capac builds MoM, that would give me enough of an excuse to go their way instead. Charly is nice!

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Sounds like this map succeeded at bringing the challenges to the table that I intended, just in a completely different and unexpected way .

 

[krikav]

Now you make me super curious @AcaMetis !