Nobles' Club 285: Mansa Musa of Mali

[konata_LS]

FIN is a strong trait. SPI's flexibility is also nice. With so many riverside tiles, the starting place would become a strong CE capital .

Spoiler From T0 to T205 :

Settings as below, no tribal village


SIP. Move the warrior around the tundra Silver and found Deer. Hunting-AH-Agri-Pot-BW.

Under panick after BW and AH, because there was no Copper, no Ivory neither Horse. And I saw Izzy's border just at the south of my capital. Decided to self-tech IW, because that Silver mine made IW affordable. If there was no Iron, at least I could prepare some attacks like Muskets + trebs to capture Iron. Luckily, after IW, the only Iron was near the flood plains around my capital. Immediately sent a Settler to secure Iron.

Found the only Horse nearby at SE, near some jungles. Chopped a Settler to claim Horse. Whipped/chopped like crazy and peacefully expanded to 9 cities. Also captured a barb city, so 10 cities before Renaissance.

Izzy founded Judaism and converted Joao and me. Suleiman and WK Hindu. The Buddists remained unknown until many turns later.

On T151, WK started plotting. I wondered who was his target.

Some turns later, I met Brennus who became WK's master. It turned out that WK was not plotting, but he was fighting against and capitulated to Brennus.

On T184, I didn't know why WK broken free from Brennus.


WK peaceful vassal to Suleiman, and Brennus DoW on Suleiman & WK . At the same time, Nappy started plotting. Several turns later, in 1350AD, Nappy backstabbed "his brother of the faith" Brennus .


Generated some GMerchants, pre-built HAs, and upgraded them to Cuirs after MT and GP. Attack with Cuirs. Joao capitulated on T195 :


Then I attacked Izzy. The diplomacy screen was chaotic. Everyone was busy warring.


Since I was at war with Izzy, it became needless to please Izzy and to stay in Judaism. Adopted Free Religion to improve the diplomacy situation.

Izzy capitulated on T205 :


The real problem was Suleiman, who had 13 cities and a vassal WK. He would be a tough target .


Tech situation on T205.


Must take a break now. Not sure if I should research Replaceable Parts-Rifling and Cavs, or go to Chemistry and Cannons.

One thing is certain: the luckiest thing of this map is Nappy is not my neighbour .

 

[krikav]

Haha, I'm having so much fun with this map.

Spoiler T79 :

I moved warrior NW and moved up on the north-western plains hill. Thought about settling on the marble after that, but was worried I would ruin seafood. Also figured that I some early oracle gambit could be in play and since riverside marble is such a nice tile I decided against it.
Wanted to grow to pop2 and 1pop whip out a worker. With BW first getting the worker out before BW doesn't make much sense anyway.
Action started at T11 and most of my plans went out of the window.

Was worried when BW was in and Joao had copper but I didn't.
At some point and archer attacked and after that I could get peace, but I decided to just continue to choke him off, preventing him to build up an army of axes to send my way.

After BW I went fishing, then hunt->archery.
Got good early commerce with the early second city and the crabs. Also chopped the silk early to get that 2F3C tile.

Built mines rather early too to build up an army. I wasn't sure about the barracks, but I think I like it.
Continued with agri->AH->Pottery after that.

Ceasefire to teleport my units into position, then redeclare and steal more workers.
I just took the settler but didn't try to guard it, and the barb warrior killed it. But setting Joao back a settler and worker is still nice, want to keep him beind now that he is furious.

The strong skirmishers where super nice to have against barbs too.
Joaos archer there turned 100% degrees and attacked the barb archer, good guy! Tried to get a woody2 warrior and attacked and lost at 87% after that. T_T

Tried to play the same trick again here. was going to get a ceasefire to steal that worker. But I was greedy and pillaged the cows, the skirmisher standing 1E of lisabon was not teleported to the sheep, but instead to the tile SE of the sheep, so I couldn't get the worker. Grrrrr.

Joao does NOT like me!

I have stolen/killed 6 workers and one settler. Then I lost one of them to barbs.
I looooove skirmishers!

HBR is in, I got 128 beakers into alpha but Bella don't want to trade, Maybe next turn.
Timbuktu can get a GSci in 10 turns, but I want to grow abit first.
Bella will likely trade ivory once she bumps up to pleased and by then it's probably time to mop up Joao.
Think I'll settle 1N of the gold even though the sheep isn't in culture. Gao probably needs that sheep itself, and a city 1N of the gold can get it's own source of food so I think I'll go for that.
With abit of luck, Bella will start to spam missionaries, but if not I'm going myst->mason after I try to get alpha in a trade.
After that, save up cash and wait for a math bulb I think.

 

[krikav]

@jnebbe

Spoiler :

As you have already noted, that second city is really sub par.
I think that was the main reason for your troubles.

The capital spot I choose was also rather slow. The thing with floodplains is that you can't really afford to do whips down to say... pop2. You need to stay rather high to work all the tiles as the food is so spread out over many tiles.
Accepting growing into 1-2 unhappines is often preferable.

Kumbe Saleh, I don't get the placement at all there. You had the sheep in culture already. Why not reach further and possibly get the deer as well?
You wanted to have the option of helping to mature some plains-cottages?

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Me: "Oh hey, J man. He'll provide a decent challenge with his city spam and an opportunity to leverage SPI, given that his favorite civic is HR"

Krivak: *DoW DoW DoW DoW DoW*

Me:

 

[civac]

Spoiler :

Shouldn't have given krikav skirmishers to play with.

 

[sampsa]

Sampsa is always right and we resorted to SOSilk

I did at least initially prefer 1NW though, but on silk seems decent too.

 

[krikav]

What makes on the silk an perfecly good option is that it's +commerce, and that makes you reach BW faster.

There are few other options for early production.
No strong agriculture resource, no fast seafood, no piggies reachable by a civ starting with agri/hunting.
So even though on silk looks like it's less production, it packs a decent punch on that arena too.

Settlement on silk and starting to tech agri is where I think it breaks down.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

What makes on the silk an perfecly good option is that it's +commerce, and that makes you reach BW faster.

There are few other options for early production.
No strong agriculture resource, no fast seafood, no piggies reachable by a civ starting with agri/hunting.
So even though on silk looks like it's less production, it packs a decent punch on that arena too.

Settlement on silk and starting to tech agri is where I think it breaks down.

I think settling on silk and teching agriculture is great actually:

Spoiler T60 Expansion :

If we peer into the fog after moving warrior 1 NW, we can surmise that the chances of getting another resource are pretty low for the plains hill. If cow ends up being our only resource, getting a 20% boost in research is big for timing.

The timing for Agriculture --> AH works really well:
T5 meet Joao/Isabella, find wheat in NW.
T16 finish worker.Timbuktu works flood plains. Find Corn to SW right next to Isabella.
T21 worker finish mine. Discover AH.
T24 city works mine, finishes warrior + grows to size 2.
T25 worker finishes pasture. City starts settler (11 turns w/no chop)
T27 worker finishes road on silk forest --> saves 1 turn in future for settler to reach corn/fish city.
T28 worker invests 5/7 turns into farming floodplain
T33 Bronze working, worker uses city road to get back on silk forest and start chopping for overflow to 2nd worker.

No Bronze/No Horse confirmed, but 2-silk start means you can go Hunting --> Archery --> Pottery. There's a small grace period after reaching 2 cities before barbarians attack. However, with Spain and Portugal so close, you can leave nestled Djenne empty while fog-busting with only 2 warriors. This also allows the opportunity to rush settlers to claim land. Check out this barbarian archer ruining Spain's day and not mine:

Building City #4 on T60 while denying Isabella. It's nice that everyone is Buddhist and unable to declare war.

Spoiler T106 :

After writing, it's fairly standard to Aesthetics (trade for Alpha, Math, Iron Working, Masonry), followed by Literature + COL (trade for Monarchy, Metal Casting, Calendar, Currency). I skip Music gamble because Mansa is spiritual and the capital is strong.

I needed to grab 3 more spots and a few swords to take this barbarian city, which cost me an opportunity at Parthenon failgold. However, it was more than worth it: +93 gold, and 3(!) workers.

On T106, I finish the Great Library and an Academy in the capital. Tech is super nice at 8 cities and 200 BPT before Civil Service (anticipated T111). Joao has 7 cities.

Isabella already has Civil Service, but that's ok:

#2 GNP:

 

[krikav]

Well, I can't argue with those results @CarpoolKaraoke !

 

[soundjata]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

any reason you neglected exploration? 1 scout = 15

 

[krikav]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

any reason you neglected exploration? 1 scout = 15

I'm 100% guilty as charged as well...

Spoiler :

Have had OB with Bella for ages. Had a worker run down there to check out abit briefly, but yeah, just building a scout and exploring the world would have been really good.
Up at 1AD now... Will get that scout done.

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

That scout might cost 1pt too, though. At least if you see from that there probably isn't any more AI:s to meet, I tend to value scouting very low, especially on deity. Paper isn't that far off anyway.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

any reason you neglected exploration? 1 scout = 15

Spoiler Reasons :

Honestly, still internally debating if this is worth it. Current stance: I've met 3 Buddhists neighbors already at WFYABTA of 5, 10, 15. If the non-Buddhists don't know I exist, they can't declare war or fear my technology becoming too advanced.

 

[soundjata]

Spoiler :

One day or another we shall have a feud with the Buddhist block.
Wouldn't it be nice if someone else started the war?

If this is a pangea style map, i wish to find some war dog to stir up

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it generally better to meet the other AIs, since it allows you to bribe them into wars (slowing down the tech pace and ruining their diplomacy) or bribe them out of wars (prevent a successful warmonger from collecting 2-3 vassals and becoming an unstoppable powerhouse)? Sure, WFYABTA limits and potential DoWs, but if these other AIs aren't in Buddhism (and thus easy to trade with/unlikely to plot war) shouldn't you be able to stop them from getting to you by negotiating a stop trade? I don't think Isabella would take much convincing to stop trading with a heathen, if she ever did to begin with.

 

[jnebbe]

@jnebbe
Kumbe Saleh, I don't get the placement at all there. You had the sheep in culture already. Why not reach further and possibly get the deer as well?

Good question

 

[krikav]

@AcaMetis I guess it depends.
But here...

Spoiler :

Bella+Sully will love me eventually anyway, religious nutball and lover of HR.
So I'll get any trade I choose from them so I'm not worried about WFYABTA limits really.

I would prefer to know every other AI I can, to get a better picture of whats going on, and to possibly manipulate them and trade with them or start to collect diplo points with them.

But there are many isolation games where I put some effort into NOT meeting AIs just to combat that dredded WFYABTA-limit.

Me not scouting is only a result of tunnel vision due to warfare, and generally focusing on other things. But squeezing in a 15h scout to get alot more info, that I should really have done.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler :

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it generally better to meet the other AIs, since it allows you to bribe them into wars (slowing down the tech pace and ruining their diplomacy) or bribe them out of wars (prevent a successful warmonger from collecting 2-3 vassals and becoming an unstoppable powerhouse)? Sure, WFYABTA limits and potential DoWs, but if these other AIs aren't in Buddhism (and thus easy to trade with/unlikely to plot war) shouldn't you be able to stop them from getting to you by negotiating a stop trade? I don't think Isabella would take much convincing to stop trading with a heathen, if she ever did to begin with.

@soundjata

Spoiler :

I've felt that bribing an AI into a war without starting it yourself is just really expensive. I'd much rather start bribing once I'm ready for war. I'd like to hear people's opinions on condition for war based on the current situation at T106:

Econ is good, production is poor in most cities. Joao is teching Machinery, Isabella has Feud/Civil Service. I can get horse or elephant from Isabella, but only have iron myself. It doesn't look like the population or resource situation is ideal for a medieval war.

So in the Renaissance, will it be mounted or foot soldiers? I could trade resources expensively once or twice for Curaissiers, but maybe Joao goes to Engineering after Machinery, making liberalism for Steel a viable play around T150? That's only 45 more turns to go, so maybe 30 more turns before I send out the scout.

Target: Probably Isabella. The Mahabodhi is directly south of my city (2nd city of Isabella). If I win that city, I fund the entire army.

The real question I haven't decided in a 45 turn window is 1) Where to build the National Epic in time, and where else to build the Globe Theatre for drafting.

Options for National Epic:
1. Visigoth - Moderate production, 4 food resources, late acquisition.
2. Timbuktu - Budget National Epic to pair with Great Library in capital.
3. Djenne - (Fish/Corn), but no production, would need to whip some random 2-pop items for a total of 125 hammers for National Epic.

Options for Globe Theatre:
1. Pick from the list above after committing one city to National Epic?

 

[krikav]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Regarding National epic... I'm looking at my 1AD situation and GLib is still available, (Sully wants to give 5g for litterature so he is close).
I'm whipping one more catapult in that fish+corn city, and after that I'll whip missionaries. If I get GLib in that city, thats where I'll eventually build natepic too.

Visigoth is the same location in my game. Not certain I'll get it (still barbarian). I did a caste artist push toward it from my gold city, so it should have flipped already imho, but Bella is closing in with some units toward it and I'm far away, so who knows.

But if I fail GLib in fish/corn, and if I do get that barb city, I'll probably place it there.
But I bulbed philo, so natepic isn't that huge of a factor in my game.

I'm far away from globe. I have production and don't have drama, so will likely not get it in any forseeable future, but if I would get it, I would place it in fish/corn, since I'm stacking alot of whips there for production.
Continuing that process with either more missionaries (or perhaps better in your case swords) is good while in HR. You get a unit to counteract the whip unhappines every time so you can do it forever.
I like that way of getting globe up, but it takes some time.

With games like this, when you end up with good econ and alot of cottages, I like drafting.
The rifles are rubbish, but you can usually get them so early it doesn't matter and they get better as you start rolling.

Your Kumbe Sale (My Djenne) is a pretty OK production city. Will be superb once workshops come into play.
Thinking about Moai here as well to sugercoat it, but thats likely dumb since it takes time away from spamming units.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T115 :

Got Alpha from Bella for HBR with another turn into it.
Getting more stuff right away. Sully/Bella will be friendly soon enough and any trading is fair game.
Bella is pleased now and I trade for her ivory.
Next turn, I get IW from Sully for Alpha and see that my source of iron is out in the desert.
I only have time to think about settling it before Bella plops down a city right on the iron.

Manage to steal two more workers from Joao with the guerilla2 skirmisher. And after I get enough xp for a GGeneral I make peace for real. Now he gets some time to develop the cities before I trample in.

I saw Sully had math for trade so I try to rush through aestethics to get it from him. That was probably dumb since he has cultural flavour... He finishes aestethics the turn after this. :| Should have gone compass or CoL.
With both AIs knowing math, I forgo the plan to bulb it and instead set aim to bulb philo.

I get math+poly for CoL (had some beakers into Math) T99 and then I bulb Philo and found Tao in Gao!
I 1-turn priesthood and T100 I trade away aestethics+CoL with bella for Monarchy+Monotheism and then I swap to hr+caste+paci, stock up on points in Djenne and spawn a GSci in Fish/Corn city while Nani works up to 100 culture with artists.

T108 I have 100 culture in nanni and swap to slavery+OR and releases the overflow I had stocked for heroic. I then start to build 5xp catapults here.

Academy T109 then a barb city.

T115 I finish CS and Sully builds MoM.
Sully has some good stuff!

Sully pays 5g for litterature. Bella is 3 turns away from CS herself. Should probably get calendar+currency and then sell or gift the rest of litterature+cs.

Should be ready to attack Joao any turn. Perhaps a few more elephants would be in order.

And the frustrating barb city... I engulfed it in culture T108 so it have had 7 turns to revolt and that still haven't happend.
Anyone know the odds for this? My experience tells me that they flip "right away" after you get culture on the center tile.
Will probably whip an elephant in Nani to be able to snipe it if Bella wears the archers down, but it's so frustrating when I was planning on doing it neatly. :|