Nobles' Club 285: Mansa Musa of Mali

[soundjata]

The same trick can be done in an even more extreme form with Burocracy, where you can whip with a 1.75 multipler, and then get insane overflow.

You mean by switching out of OR and Bureau altogether ?

 

[krikav]

You mean by switching out of OR and Bureau altogether ?

Yep!

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

Yep!

I had done some testing on this; having ironworks in your capital with factory and coal plant, while in communism + OR / Bureau, whipping a cathedral, then trading away coal and stone, can get you 200 'clean' overflow hammers (the max on a cathedral given the 50% multipliers from an unpowered factory and forge). Next turn, 200 hammers comes in at something like 750 with a multiplying resource into Statue of Liberty / eiffel tower / Kremlin, or like 550 into 3 gorges dam. Theoretical max requires next turn switch back into the same civics, meaning you'd need CR already, which could be possible for a 3GD.

Definately not practical in full, but always good to watch for proper whips into failgold (even switching out of fascism, make sure to same-turn whip units with good overflow for the extra 25% there).

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler T155-T179 :

Spain falls in a slow line drive from NW to SW. I receive Corporation and 1 civ out of Emancipation for my troubles.

Drafting is so nice at 3 cities per turn. In the 24 turn span from Rifles, I've gone from 15 Cannons to 21 Cannons and 46 Rifles while fighting a war:

I had to defy the Apostolic Palace once though, which gives -5 unhappiness per city. Culture slider at 20% is keeping citizens barely happy post capitulation.

*Begins Bernie Sanders voice*

I am once again asking for your advice: to Tech or not to Tech?

*Ends Bernie Sanders voice*

Tech situation: I am maintaining a choke-hold on Replaceable parts and Steel, with low incentive to trade for the rest since Communism is gone and Isabella is about to get Physics. I still have the Great Library running.

With this ring-world, pushing forward to the Ottoman Empire and Korea should be feasible with the current rifles and steel army (3rd power, 60% of top power). One way to go is to bump up the cultural slider to maybe 60% and get another ~20 drafted rifles. However, Railroads is ~12 turns away and Assembly Line is ~15 turns away at sustainable tech. Do I go for either?

What's funding my research:

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

I don't see a reason to sit on (and pay for) an entire army while trying to tech, especially if you don't need more tech to get more land/vassals.

 

[krikav]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Mixing in advice with my own general thought about the map here.. I'm in a somewhat similar situation.

Spoiler :

Running the culture slider is often very costly and painful with cottage heavy empires and financial leaders so I would want to get away from that situation asap.

With that many rifles, I don't think there is much reason to continue to draft from a army standpoint. But from a perspective to bump up power rating and making subsequent captiulations easier, then it might still be good.
If there is some opportunity to goad the other AIs against each other and stab them in the back, that would be a lovely opportunity to continue pushing forward.
I have still not checked my game, but my rough idea is to just roll over everyone in a clockwise direction.
Joao can peace vassal at pleased, so it's a high chance you can get him into the fold w/o firing a single shot before you bring in Wang.

If the cannons/rifles are starting to get strong, I don't think there is much reason to go for AL. Don't think there will be any need for infantry nor any time for industrialising your empire.

Railroad might help alot to get fresh units toward the front though, and a few machineguns to keep you safe against enemy grenadiers couldn't hurt.
Could build a few xbows and promote them with combat and formation to upgrade to good machineguns too.
If you ever get MilSci, some combat+charge maces upgraded first to grenadiers and then machineguns (don't think they upgrade direcly to machineguns) would keep a doomstack of rifles/cannons safe even against artillery.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler :

I don't see a reason to sit on (and pay for) an entire army while trying to tech, especially if you don't need more tech to get more land/vassals.

Spoiler :

Absolutely - I agree to march forward regardless. I think the question I was going for was "do I need to completely abandon tech to get an even bigger army?

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

It all depends on whether you'll need that tech to win the game, and I'm thinking the answer to that is "no". Even if Brennus gets Rifling and Steel he'll only be at tech parity with you, you can still punch through that with enough numbers. Worst case I think you could cap sully, send him and Izzy to grab AL/Artillery, broker techs between them and gift them outdated units to upgrade and fight your wars for you.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Joao can peace vassal at pleased, so it's a high chance you can get him into the fold w/o firing a single shot before you bring in Wang.

If the cannons/rifles are starting to get strong, I don't think there is much reason to go for AL. Don't think there will be any need for infantry nor any time for industrialising your empire.

Spoiler :

It all depends on whether you'll need that tech to win the game, and I'm thinking the answer to that is "no". Even if Brennus gets Rifling and Steel he'll only be at tech parity with you, you can still punch through that with enough numbers. Worst case I think you could cap sully, send him and Izzy to grab AL/Artillery, broker techs between them and gift them outdated units to upgrade and fight your wars for you.

@AcaMetis and @krikav, you were both completely right!

Spoiler T180-T202 :

Suleiman capitulated after losing 6 cities, just as he was beginning to mobilize with Cavalry.

Taking control of his key cities led to some modern wonders, and kicked off my modernized espionage at +160 EP per turn. Look at his settled GP though!

With the Ottomans in the fold, Joao re-joined the Buddhist Bloc as a vassal, just like @krikav predicted. He brings the hit singles, which combined with the end of Apostolic heresy meant the culture slider could go back down to 0% easily. This also allowed my 2nd army intended for Portugal to take the railroads south.

The other 3 members remain deadlocked in their centuries long war, and are nowhere near tech parity. I chose to shift allied members off military tech just in case.

With a few city adjustments and civic swaps between members, the economy also naturally re-aligned itself. Buddhist Wall Street in 10 turns.

All in all, probably one of the cheapest conquest sequences to guarantee victory I have ever played. Total sacrifices: 14 cannons and 6 Rifles.

Corresponding kill count:

 

[krikav]

@CarpoolKaraoke

 

[konata_LS]

@krikav

Spoiler :

Lib Steel
Giving Nappy tribute was worth it, for +1 relationship boost and for 10 turns peace treaty, though it certainly hurt your economy. I did similar thing in my game. Not long after meeting, Brennus demanded Philosophy from me, and I gave him, because I realised he could reach me through Joao's coast.

Using SPI for more overflow is genius!

@soundjata

Spoiler :

It seems you're going to do an Engineering rush. It's a pleasure to see different approaches in the same map. Look forward to seeing how your military actions will proceed.

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Buddhist shrine for 40+ , what a nice prize of war!

In my game I captured Izzy's shrine but it gave only around 15 per turn . Maybe because: 1) Deity AIs expands fast and have more cities to spread religions than Monarch AIs; 2) in my game Izzy and Sully founded different religions and they didn't open border, so Izzy could only spread her religion to Joao and me.

 

[Andriy Fadyeyenko]

First De Gaulle and now Mansa Musa. Why oh why do we go through the leaders that I just played? epehands

 

[krikav]

I like playing leaders multiple times when I do play them.
Often I check which leaders are upcomming in NC:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/nobles-club-bullpen-sixth-cycle.666505/#post-16003217

And if I don't have any other games going, I usually play a game or two with the leader whe are about to play.
Sometimes I dig up a old NC game, and sometimes I just roll a random map.

I think a dash of repetition is very good to really learn how to leverage the different traits and civ specific stuff.

But if you really can't stand repetition, you can probably use that list to see which civs you should stay clear of awhile.
Alexander -> Mao -> Julius are up next.

 

[Andriy Fadyeyenko]

Well, I haven't played any of those three in years, so I guess I'm good.

Also -

Spoiler :

125 BC inted by Suleiman, who didn't get Spain's religion so there was literally no way to appease him. Feels civ4 man.

Besides that, this is also a very... interesting... start, due to the shortage of food but the absolute fudgton of commerce.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T179 :

By a strange stroke of coincidence, I managed to grab barcelona also on T179 at which turn I decided to capitulate Bella.
Was bombarding it heavily for multiple turns with a battery of cannons, but I had too little support units to take the city earlier since she was filling it up all the time.


Started the GA with the music artist and ran a trade mission with the economics merchant to upgrade a bunch of the CR3 catapults and trebs.
I started the war at T163 when I had enough troops shuffled toward the east, and had managed to upgrade a few elephants to cuirs (mainly to protect the cannons in the stack against conquistadors.)
The cannons where absolutely brutal, getting 95-99% odds against pretty much everything except conqs in hilled cities.
The skirmishers that where still keeping up could finish severely wounded units at 98% odds too!
T167 Brennus declares on Joao.

Bella holds a vote to stop fighting her, I have to defy.
Bad play on my part not paying attention to when the votes are cast. It's good practice to take a ceasefire once they votes loom.

Brennus was at WFYABTA limit, but I guess he forgot about the last trade. I wish he had before I almost completed RP though.
The whale was helpful though, had a boat standing on that spot for ages waiting for the tech to come in.

Bella wants even more action! And to really spice up things, after I vote "Yes" I also give Brennus lib+chem to start a war against Sully.

No peace!

She was offering Toledo, but I got Zaragoza instead, that helps Murica and the Barb city where I now have Moai more. Toledo would have been crushed by culture too.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T179 Situation :

Power graph isn't as impressive as @CarpoolKaraoke 's but I only got rifling recently. Will start to supplement the army with some draftees now and I will likely run 100% gold as long as I have anything left in my empire that isn't an rifleman.

I got the christian shine in a previous city too, 15gpt or something around that. Also, Madrid had spiral minaret which is nice with all the Buddhist temples I have built.

Current army is still cannon heavy. I built some maces which are doing perfecly fine too.

44 conqs down. She was nice all the time and just holed up in cities, no real counterattack. <3

Almost all losses against Bella where unlucky rolls at the upper 90 percentaces. I feel sad for the 2 skrimishers who had almost 30 xp and have been with me since I started harassing Joao ages ago.

Will gather up, heal abit and then marsh toward Sully. Looks like there is a nice vector of attack in the south, getting a T1 access to a city and then his capital isn't far away.
If I leave some cannons in Madrid, they can work together with drafted rifles comming in from the north and attacking Sullys northern cities.
All cities will get to finish the rifle they where working on, and then they will spam cavalry except for Djenne who will continue to build CR3 cannons.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

@krikav

Spoiler :

Looks like those super siege units paid off! Cavalry is probably the right move, and it makes trading off Chemistry less costly.

It's a pity that Wang Kon capitulated and is helping Brennus tech. It looks like the pair are heading towards Rifling, which will be a bit more annoying with Korea's Protective trait. Then again, you already have 21 cities so it doesn't really matter if you need to sacrifice a few more units.

Hypothetically, would this move have saved Wang Kon from capitulation?

1. Declare war on Korea on request, gain diplomacy points.
2. Wait for availability to talk.
3. Gift mid tier military tech in "peace talks" to help him survive longer?

 

[krikav]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Hypothetically, yes!
I use that trick from time to time, key techs to gift are engineering, gunpowder and rifling, all those 3 can beef up a struggling AI significantly.
A good thing is that you can gift as much as you like in a peacedeal, without having to get punished by "you traded with our worst enemy", so sometimes I just give Monty or some other warmongerer all techs I have available to keep them going and continue to pose a challenge for some other AI like Capac.

Here however, I don't think I even had engineering by the time he folded to Brennus.
Scrolled through the screenshots briefly and it seems I was asked to join the war T129 and at T135...? He was already a vassal.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T201 :

I was confident that Sully would have all his units far away fighting Nappy so I went in rather quick.
I had two workers that where sprinting in to scout him out, but then Brennus asked me to stop trading with Sully and since I figured he would be a goner soon anyway I just agreed.
That turned out to be a huge mistake.

Two forward stacks rushing for Konya and Gizantrep.

Seems like sneaky Sully was anticipating my attack though, because he came at me like a wrecking ball.
Only dumb luck

Probably lost 30 units or so in total here.
Luckily most of the cannons where in the two forward stacks though, which even more luckily got spared.

I continued to strike Sully way past him being willing to capitulate, until I felt that I had enough of his cities and that I would get his offshore holdings.

Enjoy fighting Brennus Sully!

The next turn, Brennus goes into Diyarbakir. I could have attacked his main stack there, but instead I try to evade up toward the west. The idea is to have Brennus kill of Sully which enables me to start drafting all Sullys forward cities, and it would also get me more land area faster.

I also trade whatever I can with Sully, but he doesn't get rifling though.
Got communism from Bella and swapped to state property, but with alot of courthouses already and with versailles in one of Bellas city, the economic boost wasn't what I had hoped for.

Moving forward here, hope the conquest of Wonsan drops wangs culture of the tile north of the wine, then that part of the stack can sprint toward Izmir and take it.
Sully still ahve one city in the east but Brennus is chipping away at it.

 

[krikav]

Spoiler T222 :

The plan sort of worked... But Sully had survivour skills and found an exile.

In the end though, drafting more units was probably not necessery. I did manage to kill most of Brennus units inside of Sullys old cities, and wang was still fooling around with longbows.

Brennus managed to replenish his stack quite abit. The cannons where very happy about that!

Napoleon didn't dare become a vassal because he was afraid of Brennus. But once joined the team, Nappy had no more hesitation!

This infantry is one of the two surviving skirmishers from the very start.

I absolutely adore the doughnut shape of the map!

GG