Nobles' Club 285: Mansa Musa of Mali

[NothingBesideRemains]

Are you doing the whip trick right. I'm really tired right now but that feels counterproductive.

Edit: I think the idea is whip structure with OR with plenty of overflow -> immediately switch out of OR, take structure out of build list -> regrow with whatever -> 4 turns afterwards put structure back into build list -> following turn switch back into OR.

That way you get the OR bonus on the overflow part of the whip twice. However, building is 5 turns delayed. I wonder if its even worth it for, what, 10 extra hammers?

This type of trick (whipping with multipliers, then removing those multipliers before "releasing" the whipped build(s)) works best when it lines up with what you would be doing anyway.

ex: when planning a switch from OR to Theo, line up your whips for that same turn. 29 raw hammers from a 'perfect'whip overflow become 37 hammers if the whip is done with +25% OR bonus, which is normally eliminated, but if you switch out of OR after whipping, the negation doesnt happen.

If you have no other multipliers in this example, and your next build is a building, result is the same either way: 37 hammers go into the next turn's net production (excluding same-turn production which loses the OR bonus, which might be only 1 or 2 in zero-production city).

Where this gives an actual net bonus is any of the following:

(1) next build doesnt get the multiplier naturally (like whipping a building with OR then building a unit)

(2) you have additional multipliers that 'compound' (with a 25% forge bonus alone, 37 'raw' hammers * 1.25 = 2 hammers more than 29 *1.5 (call this "compounding"). This sounds small, but if you do this in your capital with bureau and forge, then 37 raw hammers * 1.75 = 70ish hammers, vs 29* 2.0 = 60. Or if you also have resource bonus on the next build, like GL, then 37 raw hammers * 2.75 = 107, vs 29 * 3 = 90. Or in the extreme, if you also have factory and coal plant and ironworks, 37 * 4.25 = 155 vs 29 * 4.0 = 116.

(3) you cancel the bonus after whipping, then bring it back when production finishes. In the above examples, if you had the Christo Redendor, you could go *back* into OR immediately the next turn. So with just a forge, you get 37 raw hammers, which becomes * 1.5 the next turn = 58 vs 29 * 1.5 = 44 without these shenanigans. Without Christo Redentor, you are correct youd need to wait 5 turns, which might be okay. An example would be switching to Nationalism for 5 turns of drafting (as spritual leader) then switching back to Bureau and OR which gives 53 raw hammers * 1.75 = 90 hammers vs 29 * 1.75 = 53 hammers.

(4) if the multiplier being negated is a resource bonus. ex: imagine whipping a castle with stone, then removing stone through a trade. Creates 58 raw hammers into the next build, which could then have its own multipliers. If your next build was GL, and you had marble, burea, forge, and OR, that gives overflow of 58 * 300% = 170, vs 29 * 300% = 87.


You can throw all that together as well as removing the. replacing resources, including coal and iron for power + ironworks bonuses, communism's 10%, getting up something like 150 raw hammers of overflow turning into something like 750 net hammers in next turn.

Realistically, this is mostly relevant just when pulling out resources, or in how you line up whips with civic changes.

 

[AcaMetis]

ex: when planning a switch from OR to Theo, line up your whips for that same turn. 29 raw hammers from a 'perfect'whip overflow become 37 hammers if the whip is done with +25% OR bonus, which is normally eliminated, but if you switch out of OR after whipping, the negation doesnt happen.

Since OR only boosts hammers on buildings in cities with your state religion couldn't you also pull off this trick by swapping out of your state religion, instead of OR itself?

Spoiler :

Not that I think it would be a good idea to do on this map, religious zealot on your border and all, but in theory...

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

Since OR only boosts hammers on buildings in cities with your state religion couldn't you also pull off this trick by swapping out of your state religion, instead of OR itself?

Spoiler :

Not that I think it would be a good idea to do on this map, religious zealot on your border and all, but in theory...

Yes this would work. The principle is that, to avoid stacking bonuses, the end of turn 'true, raw' overflow = listed overflow / multipliers *which apply to the queue when you press end turn*. Because the slavery bonuses act as 'additional hammers' *at the point in time you press whip*, the whip bonuses can be 'a', and the end of turn multipliers negated can be 'b'. Could even work against you, ie: whipping in vassalage then switching to Burea before end of turn.

In theory I guess you could even expand on this - whip with OR as buddhist, then switch into hindu. Then next turn, convert the city with a hindu missionary.

 

[civac]

Yeah, the example of whipping a building ten switching out of OR and making a follow up unit is reasonable.

I have only used these overflow tricks with wonder pre-builds where there effect can be quite spectacular.

 

[soundjata]

Weekend incoming... No child at home...

Spoiler :

Mansa Musa

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

T 238 culture

Spoiler :

I took an embarrassing tumble while running and spent a bit of time on the couch with my leg raised. As I was playing on a laptop with the touchpad I decided to go culture because I couldn’t face moving units around the map. I hadn’t really played the early game with this in mind so it wasn’t a perfect setup. In particular I should have bulbed philosophy rather than building an academy to get the religion. I missed both the philosophy and divine right religions so I only had Christianity for a long time. As I didn’t have stone, building the cathedrals required some pretty ugly seven or eight pop whips.

I won lib and took printing press. I teched nationalism and built the Taj and teched up to economics. I wanted the great merchant to fund the culture slider and I needed guilds for grocers and banking for mercantilism anyway.

I turned the slider on at economics - sorry @Jellybug

I eventually got confucianism from Wang. I’d flipped Isabelle’s copper by then, so it was relatively quick to switch to slavery, spread the religion and whip the temples and then the confu academies. I can’t remember how many turns it shaved off but it was a big help. I was disappointed that Isabelle made no effort to spread her minority religion.

I got a measure of revenge when I flipped Barcelona three turns after she finally built the Christian shrine.

That was the highlight of the last hundred odd turns. The advantage of neighbours that won’t open borders to allow religious spread from other AIs is that they won't let their armies through either. Consequently, although it was quite a slow culture victory, it was a pretty relaxed one. It wasn't entirely peaceful as I declared on both Napo and Wang for diplo but I never did any fighting.

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

That's an interesting way of thinking about BW v AH - comparing hammers from chops with hammers and food hammers from the improved cow and what you could do with the worker turns rather than chop. The comparison is complicated by the fact that you would also have gotten your worker faster as I grew to size two and whipped but I would have gotten a small amount of additional commerce from working an extra flood plain and perhaps finished my warrior first. I also find it hard to put a value on the fact that you saved forests. I suspect it depends on what you do with that early production boost from BW. As you said, if you do what Krikav did, it's clear BW first wins; if you do what I did, going AH and being able to put three chops into the Great Library or failgold is probably better.

@dontworryabouttsunami

Spoiler :

Nice win and even better Grim Fandango reference!