Nobles' Club 289: Willem van Oranje of the Netherlands

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Willem of The Netherlands, whom we last played in NC 250. The Dutch start with Agriculture and Fishing.

• Traits: Willem is Creative and Financial. Creative gives every city +2 for free, and gives a +100% bonus to Libraries, Theatres, and Colosseums. Financial adds +1 to any tile that already produces at least 2.
  
• The UB: The Dike, a Levee with +1 on Water tiles as well as River tiles. As an added bonus Dikes can be build in any city that has a coast/ocean tile within it's BFC, in addition to cities that are settled alongside a river. Note that a city that merely has river and/or Lake tiles within it's BFC cannot build a Dike, even though both would benefit from it. A city must either be riverside or have coast/ocean within it's BFC to build a Dike.
  
• The UU: The East Indiaman, a Galleon with 4 cargo space instead of 3, 6 instead of 4, and the ability to explore rival territory. The last ability allows the unit to go trough rival culture without Open Borders, and not be expelled from rival borders when a DoW occurs. Note that while an EIM can enter rival territory even while transporting units without the Can Explore Rival Territory ability they cannot enter a rival city without OB regardless, so the only units they can transport into closed borders territory are those with the CERT tag themselves (Spies and Great Spies, though since the ships are forbidden from entering port the spies will, presumably, have to row themselves to shore the hard way).

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Fractal, Temperate Climate, Medium sealevel.

Spoiler edits :

Some questionably placed sea resources were moved to your shores, and one AI lacking a nearby early strategic resource was given one.

Spoiler isolated? :

Semi-isolated, although additional pre-Optics first contact is not impossible.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 289 Willem Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

To move out into the darkness onto that PH 2E1S, or to SIP? Honestly I think SIP is the better (or, at least, safer) option: No guarantee that there's food out in the darkness to the east, SIP is a good enough spot for a capital, and it saves one turn of movement. The warrior is unfortunately out of position to do anything meaningful T0, so all told I'd go with the safe option and just SIP.

Do any experts have other ideas, or is plan SIP the correct choice ?

 

[Pangaea]

You have ignored the most obvious choice: the blue circle!

We're already on a PH, so chasing the other one seems unwise when we can't know what is over there. Maybe we are lucky and there is food 2S of our current location. Otherwise, a green cow isn't horrible, at least when combined with 3 FPs. We have at least 6 nice cottage tiles, which is okay. Can't whip the capital much, but then I don't like to whip it overly hard anyway.

The warrior can't show much, but maybe NW is least bad, before swinging back down. I don't want to go north here, into the jungle. Better to check out the south. Or maybe just go SE right away and check out the other FPs, if there are more further east.

Willem is a very strong leader, and was my crutch when starting out. FIN for a better economy, and CRE for easy border pops. Hard to go wrong with Willem.

I dropped out of this place around when the demigod difficulty was coined or created, so perhaps I ought to try that here? Deity sure is a tough ask, although more tolerable with a strong leader, and possibly a strong capital. I still tend to think the main difficulty with Deity is their enormous production bonuses across the board, but the extra settler is certainly good too, which they don't have at demigod.

Depending on what is revealed upon settling, probably with SIP, straight AH makes sense I think. Then maybe BW after that. Or possible cottages just to get those up and running asap. Chopping out a settler would be nice, but can't really whip here anyway, so BW isn't as important as usual perhaps?

 

[Pangaea]

Btw, on demigod, we have Deity tech costs?

 

[AcaMetis]

Demigod is Deity, but AIs only get their Immortal starting units, so yes

 

[Kernigh]

I played a game where I spied on Willem van Oranje, as he built the Dike in every coastal city. I saw his hammers: 1 on each water tile, as if Willem had the Moai Statues in every city! Willem can't build any Dike until he learns Steam Power, so the question is whether he can survive long enough to learn it.

I'm thinking about the rivers in this start. The east and south rivers might connect a road. I'm not sure, but the connection might use a chain of river tiles. Our Settler is on the east river, 1 tile south is on the south river, and these 2 river tiles are adjacent, so the game might connect them. While I don't know Sailing, the tiles might need to be inside my borders, but that will happen after I settle my capital city on either plains hill.

A city on the hill 2E1S might have 6 flood plains, might be too unhealthy to grow? That hill has no Fresh Water for health. I know that flood plains and jungles are unhealthy. I had a game (at or around Prince difficulty) where my jungle city didn't grow until I connected a road to my health resources. I don't want to be stuck with an unhealthy capital and a 3rd-ring cow.

 

[Pangaea]

Started on this, and here is an update at only T43, on Demigod difficulty.

Spoiler :

Like written above, I decided to SIP. We're already on a PH, so it didn't make great sense to move. It's also riverside, which allows for a Dike if the game goes that far. Sadly no extra food, but what can you do. at least we have three FPs.

Early tech choices are a little awkward, AH aside. Ultimately I decided to not only skimp on BW, but also Mining. Instead I went for Pottery after AH, and after that Writing, which was just completed. Looks like we are decidedly semi-isolated, alone with Brennus. He founded Hinduism, which could be good given the local.. err.. dangers. With OB, hopefully it will spread soon-ish and we can start to hang out round the campfire.

Rather unusual for me, I opted to start on a settler at only size 2. Only one powertile here, so little reason to keep growing first. The worker didn't have a whole lot to do, but he farmed a FP, and roaded a little. I was going to found that city along the river, but in the last moment decided to split up the food, and thereby put that second city north of the river. Otherwise it would have been hard to work that (jungled) gems, as there is very little food here. Maybe the third city will go on the southern river. No point heading into the jungle here, although those elephants sure are tempting. They're basically in Celtic culture from the get-go, though, so I have to hope Brennus is willing to share. Shame about all gems being jungled, but what can you do. Guess I have to self-tech IW as well here, as Brennus probably doesn't to trade that unless friendly. And I really don't like the 'tactic' of gifting cities for diplo purposes.

With no horses, it would be nice to know if we have copper, just in case Brennus decided to split our skulls open. It is tempting to go for sailing now, for trade routes without 20 workerturns or something dedicated to roads, but the safer choice is probably to go for BW, and maybe even IW after that. Alpha seems a little pointless when Brennus won't trade anything half-decent anyway. Probably only stuff like Alpha itself and Monarchy. Those are "safe" because they don't unlock units or buildings. Therefore the AI will always trade them. I'll need to think about this, but with the map fogbusted with only three warriors, Sailing is indeed tempting. If Brennus comes, I'm dead anyway. And there won't be a fist warning either.

So then... a new settler is in the works, but will probably be a little late due to no chops or whips, and only one power tile. I've made a second worker already, though, and two cottages, so that is nice. Early dotmaps in the below overview map. Though I haven't decided on sequence, and there may be amendments.

Spoiler :

 

[Pangaea]

1000BC.

Spoiler :

View on Deity super bonuses hasn't exactly changed upon seeing Brennus flying out of the gates here. Slower to city 2 ofc, but other than that he's off the chart. 1000BC now, and he's got 8 cities vs my five. I went Writing earlier and open borders with him, and got a random Hindu spread (he also founded Judaism). Later he sent 2 missionaries, which was great to see. Don't think my play has been stellar here, but I do have five cities, the last settled on top of the western gems. Wanted it 1N, but he already had a city nearby, and figured it was best to avoid undue border pressure. I gave away the copper we thankfully located in exchange for Ivory. But I'm thinking it's too late to have a stab at elepulting him. I'm not set up for that. Since he hasn't declared yet, and is pleased now, may as well get him to friendly and do the usual isolation thing of hurrying to Optics and Astro. At least Willem has a nice UU for that. Perhaps that was the intention with the map for all I know.

Wonders seem to be going a little late, and I don't see a lighthouse yet for Brennus, so I'm trying a very late GLH. Got three workers chopping, and think I'll postpone until Math in 6-7 turns. If I dare. May not get it, but would be fantastic if I do. Depends where the AIs are located on the other continent(s) and if they are in a nice position to snag it. I hope they don't, but 1000BC is already late. However, Oracle hasn't gone yet, though I do suspect Brennus is working on it. He has a fairly big build in his capital, and the Pyramids are already gone, so it ain't that. Could be Artemis or something though.

Overview map in 1000BC.

Spoiler :

Half-decent cottage development, but cities haven't been able to work them all. For once my workers have been well ahead of the 'curve'. With that gems city, the land is blocked off, so I can settle in peace further south. It is hopefully worth it.

Looks like Brennus has a lot of land to the north, so I supect he'll get 12-15 cities here. I don't have view on everything yet.

 

[konata_LS]

Won't have time to play civ 4 today. Will try this map tomorrow.

Jugding from the starting place, SIP and researching AH seem obvious. Then Mining-BW maybe...? there are so many forests to chop.

Some general thoughts about the map type:

Spoiler :

As the "map details" tell us it's a semi-isolation, I guess what we should do will depend on our neighbour, in such case? If the only neighbour is a peaceful AI like Asoka or Frederick, just convert to his religion/gift a city then we should be safe. But if we're semi-isolated with Shaka or Alex, the war is the only option.

AIs like Pacal and Huayna Capac are a little complicated to deal with in semi-iso. They can plot at Pleased, but it's also quite easy to get them to Friendly through shared religion + HR. Besides, both of them are often too busy building wonders and neglect military.

 

[Alexander IV]

What a nice leader to play with!
To t69

Spoiler Deity NH NE :

After a pasture and a FP farm built a mine on a river PH to help Utrecht get workboats faster. AH - mining - BW (but no slavery until 3 cities settled - forgot to switch on the settler's way to Hague) Quite early revealed (oh, creative) there will be no barb threats, if galleys only. And after BW immediately IW having no wheel or pottery, because I decided to steal all those gems from my neighbour. And without IW it would be a disaster. Now I think these 3 cities can pay for themselves with gems (btw 2 settlers from cap 1 from Utrecht) like no wheel + pottery could. So next Writing, then libs and scientists, after that pottery (anyway no happies besides gems for all these river cottages) and monarchy somehow. Maybe trading with Brennus after I give him Brennusville, Mono for his fav civic. He puts his espionage points on me, so if we are in semi-iso, better become good friends.
But what next? Nothing but copper and those elephants near Buddhist holy city. I don't think I can steal the elephants and rush Construction - I've just put 2 cities in the jungle and they will slow me down for some time. Even if it is possible then how I am going to recover? Well maybe I need to wait for open borders, see what Brennus got and decide after that.

 

[Snowbird]

About resources and other spoily stuff.

Spoiler :

Seems pretty good for loaned elepult (trade for phants, push for construction) especially with phants being relatively close to border. That is assuming the start has enough resources to trade for them.

Unluckily I've looked through spoilers which beats the point of planning early game. With the knowledge I would probably cottage, settle a few good sites good and let Celts deal with jungle. Early library and bulb maths too.

 

[Pangaea]

Played to around 1AD. Some AIs revealed. Beware. Is @krikav playing this one?

Spoiler :

Tried to get the GLH as mentioned in the 1000BC update, but it was unfortunately lost in T80. I got 41 failgold out of it, but am glad I hadn't chopped all the forests yet. They are useful for other things too. Oddly enough, three wonders went in the very same turn: GLH, Mahabodhi and Artemis (Brennus got that one). Small tangent, but at this point Brennus had still not researched IW! You can tell by the iron tile not having the extra hammer. Think he went for a fairly early Monarchy->Feudalism instead.

I tagged krikav above, because he wrote somewhere that to get the three GS in decent time, you need to have started to run two scientists from three cities by turn 90, so you get the last one by T140. That will allow an academy and two GS for double-bulbing Astro. Academy was late for me here, only in T102, but I figured it's a long game and may still be worth it. It's a good buro capital. The others will sadly be a bit late. Not because I started to run them too late vs that target, but because we're teching too fast.

In T114 we have Optics, and I upgrade two triremes to caravels. The second GS is still 8 turns away.

Spoiler :

I did admittedly beeline fairly hard, but I'm thinking that's a pretty decent Optics date.

Spoiler :

Amsterdam did suffer a little due to skipping Monarchy and not having a temple and stuff like that, but it still had a happy cap of 9, which I figured would suffice. Naturally we then lack some basics before the Astro bulb is opened up, which I hope to get from AI trades.

First AI I meet is the suspected Egypt (a horde of great prophets were born, which made me suspicious). Sadly she lacked Alpha. Next AI up is the beloved Toku... Ouch! But he has alpha! And lacks a tiny tech. I gift him, he's pleased and open borders, and I was able to get Alpha for Compass

Spoiler :

A few trades later, and after self-teching the cheap basics to keep "We fear.." a little at bay, I'm able to tech Astro while waiting for the GS. I can't wait for a double-bulb, it's way too long.

The Ottomans have also been found, and he too lacked Alpha. Looks like many of them were (semi) isolated, which has slowed down their tech rate considerably. I've yet to find the last three, but this is the tech trade overview in T120.

Spoiler :

Will need a good handful of turns to self-tech into Astro, but it should still be a pretty early date, and with great trade routes upcoming. Hopefully more happies too, so I change some deals around.

With many lacking Feudalism for the time being, it's tempting to go for a very early overseas war here, without waiting for Cuirs or something like that. However, I won't be ready for that for quite a while, no army yet, and things can change quickly in 500 years or whatever. Perhaps the stronger move would have been to use Brennus' elephants to elepults him a long time ago, we really don't have much land here in the south, but by now he's friendly and has longbows so it makes more sense to go overseas. Suleiman looks like a nice target currently, and not too far away.

 

[Pangaea]

Continuing on Demigod to ~500AD.

Spoiler :

All AIs have been found, just so you have been warned.

250AD I use the GS to bulb Astro. Still a couple turns left, tho. In 300AD we therefore have Astro, with great trade routes and more resource trading options. Would love to get my hands on all the GPT on offer, but I had to prioritise getting more health and happy instead. Health is actually the bigger issue, so getting Corn was great. Unfortunately Toku is back to Cautious so doesn't want to trade any of his stuff, which is a lot. In the below overview the last two AIs weren't located yet.

Spoiler :

In 300AD I find them, and turns out there is a large Confucian bloc. Zara appears to be the most advanced, though Brennus is giving him a run for his money, with Engineering already. I have to wait until Brennus has completed Notre Dame before he wants to trade it though, despite our friendly relations. Suleiman has a large empire at 12 cities, with still more room to expand, and he's quickly catching up in techs. Won't be able to attack him I think. Toku looks more feasible. He's getting along okay with the other Confucians, but is still backwards, as per usual. Nobody are plotting, but Toku got a sizeable stack of catas, chariots and spears near Zara's border.

Spoiler :

Not so bad now, but once those are Samurais and Knights, it's a different matter.

However, Toku is the top name on my chopping block for the time being. He's close, has a lot of land, and a lot of resources, which I really need. He may get longbows ofc, I assume he's teching Feudalism now, but as long as I get my hands on double-promo Trebs, it should be okay provided he doesn't get Castles.

Spoiler :

This is before I got Engineering from Brennus. You can see he just completed Notre Dame. Thanks, buddy! Had to throw in CS in the deal, which has to mean he was teching it himself.

The local map isn't very interesting, not much I can do citywise, but I've started to build some elephants, got a few unique boats, and will now start on trebs too. But first double-change civics for Buro+Theo. The general outlay of the map is shown in the minimap below btw.

Spoiler :

 

[konata_LS]

From T0 to T201

Spoiler :

Again, one of the advantages of playing as Willem is I won't have him as opponent. AI WvO often makes me feel like a moron . In one of the recent NC games (can't indicate which one, to avoid spoiling AIs) at Monarch level, AI Willem got 800BC (yes, 800BC, not AD) Philo when I was dawdling towards Maths ; he also got Steel while I didn't even know Chemistry .

Settings as below, no huts.


SIP. AH-Mining-BW-TW-Pot.

Maybe I played too cowardly . After BW, I didn't Axe rush Brennus. Instead, I sent a settler to grab Ivory. Brennus founded Buddhism. When my scouting warrior noticed Brennus' worker finished a suspicious flat grassland mine, I gifted a city to Brennus. After IW, I realised I had no Iron. But around that time it's too late for Axe rush. So I had to stay at peace with 6 cities until Astro .

I wanted to get Monarchy from Brennus. But the problem was, I waited until 1AD in hope of getting Alpha through trade, but Brennus refused to tech Alphabet even in 200AD. I couldn't wait longer, so I had to self-tech Alpha, Myst, Poly and PH, then got Monarchy from him .


Optics contacts showed there were lovefests everywhere. Hatty and Sully Jewish; Zara's continent was a happy Confu family. AIs were happily teching, trading, and wonder-spamming. Other continents didn't like me due to religious difference .

The only good event is Toku DoW Zara in 760AD:


Lucky discovery of Gem:


It was impossible to stay with 6 cities for an Artillery attack. So I built Elepults and trebs to attack Brennus. He disappeared on T199. Captured Parthenon and Buddhist shrine which generated a pathetic +9 per turn. Adopted FR because it was needless to please Brennus anymore.


Tech situation on T201:


Not sure what to tech next. It seems GP-Chemistry-Steel is a good option. But none of AIs has Nationalism and the former Celtic land had Marbles. An GAge from Taj Mahal looks quite tempting for a 10+ cities empire. Besideds, Nationalism also leads to MT. Building some Cuirs is not a bad idea, maybe?...

The recovery after wars would be also an urgency. Most of my cities except the capital were heavily whipped; some cities were even down to size 2. Some improvements has been pillaged during the war and need to be rebuilt. Once again, many forests need to be chopped because I didn't build enough workers .

 

[konata_LS]

@Kernigh

Spoiler :

You mentioned a good point. Health is often an issue in Continents or Semi-isolation, because the health resources on one continent is sometimes limited, and getting more resources through trade is available only after Astronomy.

@Pangaea

Spoiler :

Your situation looks really good! You got Astro 300 years earlier than I did . It seems you're going for some Engineering-based attacks.

Your write-up makes me realise I forgot to adopt Bureau after CS.

 

[Pangaea]

@konata_LS: Sadly things went badly

Spoiler :

Rage quit yesterday. Can restart from the auto save as that was actually the last point of any action, but don't think I want to. Would have to go back and redo some things, but unlike a few others I don't like that. The save feels ruined to me then. Sorry

But here are a few pictures at least. Don't think I can fathom to keep going. Probably no real way back anyway.

Spoiler :

T150 and I'm finally ready to invade Toku. As suspected he was teching feudalism earlier, so got longbows now, and this very turn he also got his blasted Samurais due to Machinery.

We thus landed with 19 units, took away culture that first turn, and took the city the next. Healed up a bit with more reinforcements on the way, and then marched on his capital which was just two turns away inland. Other cities nearby looked crap, and he has HE in the capital. Keep in mind I also brought Zara into the war on T0, and there has been loads of action. Thought Zara invaded and that is what is causing the war weariness, but maybe Toku actually invaded him. I don't see wounded units near Toku's city further SW.

Spoiler :

Anyway, I'm still getting whittled down here. Demigod is still essentially Deity. And Toku is bringing 1-2 new ministacks every turn. Units (including shock maces) withstood one assault on the hill outside Kyoto (attacked from 4 different stacks or something like that, plus the city), but were badly injured. Most others lost the next turn, and I was down to trebs defending. Yeah... no good.

I had already teched virtually all of Lib, but was trying to get to Steel. Suddenly I see that Hatty can tech Lib as well. I knew I should then just grab Chemistry for example (Brennus is already building Taj Mahal), but was already feeling kinda crap about the whole thing, so teched into Chemistry for one more turn. Boom, Hatty picks Nationalism. This image was a couple turns before I suppose since I didn't have Gunpowder yet. Or maybe I got it from Zara Cyrus that turn.

Spoiler :

As you can see, Toku is horribly behind in tech, but Deity AIs don't GAF about that. 1-turn units everywhere and laugh at the human that must abide with an actual production process and supply chain, plus costs.

Suppose I should have sat back and teched up more, instead of chomping at the bit and going for a renaissance era war, despite Toku being kind of a caveman. Or done as my gut feeling told me way back, and attacked Brennus with his own elephants, before he took off like this. It's the same old story on Deity. One blunder and the game is in reality lost. I have too little land to come back I think, whip counters are through the roof, and the one city I hold in Japan is basically worthless.

At least it was fun to get to Optics and Astro so soon. 300AD Astro is good I think, particularly in view of botching the first GS on an Academy. Would have been faster if I could double-bulb Astro instead.

 

[Alexander IV]

Played to t83 yesterday, only after these turns I could sleep.

Spoiler t83 :

I was scared when I saw stack forming in Durnovaria. Some more units were running around too. Two-whipped the settler and ran settled Brennusville. Cautious (because of border tensions)! After that I get Writing, open borders and here comes buddhism. I convert immediately, and only now he's Pleased. He's got Elephants to trade, I think he wont gift me that, so I cancel our old crab for cow trade and beg for the cow. And he gives me it! And elephants after for gem+crab.
I felt I was very close to an early endgame. =)

But now we can have a nice trading partner with his +4 fair trade, +2 shared religion (up to +8 with his holy city) and up to +4 for fav civic, which is easy to get, and a good civic by itself. What's not good here is that he's got 8 spy points on me - he must have ScotlandYard already. I don't know whats he teching now or what he's got already (except IW and Mono). So I'm not sure where to go next. Got some beakers in Alpha - would allow me to see what he has. Alpha can be traded but maybe better not to rely on AI here. Like I have to choose between techs I need now and techs I could trade to him. To get him to friendly I need Mono, so maybe just tech prerequisites first. PH is nice for temples and monarchy. Later I could put 100% into espionage to see what's my only trading partner's doing. And I still need to scout his territory and manage my workerturns.

I'm now reading a thread which could be useful for this game, but it contains a spoiler for those who don't look at map settings!

Spoiler :

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/early-game-deity-training-semi-isolated-jungle.331780/

 

[Pangaea]

Sigh... should I really bother? Bought peace with CoL. Feels bad man.

Spoiler :

At least my dudes are mostly alive, and I can cheese Lib. Save feels stained, tho.

 

[Alexander IV]

To t93

Spoiler Alpha :

Decided to get Alpha (t93) because had nothing to grow on but warriors. Got some cottages but still not a single scientist - whipped pop into granaries everywhere. But I got food to grow, got research to grow on now. I'd like to put two more cities but not sure I can afford it now. Still don't have a plan. Going myst poly now, then have to decide what I can tech for a Monarchy trade. (IIRC Monarchy AI trade is always available no matter iso or not)
Brennus already in HR/OR, he's got wine to trade, but I have nothing to give him. Must be researching Theo?

 

[Alexander IV]

T95

Spoiler North Celtia :

How unfair! This could solve so many problems! My 2 warriors scouting through Celtic territory will be there in a few turns and I just started on a settler in Hague (its already under happy cap and the bad tiles are FP cottages so I didnt want to run scientists instead there). I do think I must get this spot if I can