Nobles' Club 289: Willem van Oranje of the Netherlands

[Alexander IV]

To t108

Spoiler :

t100 Monarchy trade

T102 HR/OR anarchy

T108 New city!

No culture line wonders yet

Friends forever!

 

[Kernigh]

Thanks everyone for using the spoiler markup. I don't open your spoilers, but begin my game at Emperor difficulty, knowing almost nothing about the map.

Spoiler Emperor, 1160 BC T71, a Creative beginning :

Settle 4 cities: T0 Koe, T34 Vuurtoren, T53 Rijst, T66 Corneria. Research T12 Animal Husbandry (cow pasture), T20 Mining, T34 Bronze Working (chop forest, Slavery), T45 Sailing (Lighthouse), T51 Masonry (Great Lighthouse), T58 The Wheel (road), T63 Pottery (Granary, cottage), T71 Writing (Library, open borders).

Warrior moves west (onto plains hill 2W2N of Settler), finds rice stuck under jungle. Settler stays in place, settles Koe "cow" (my 1st city, 4000 BC T0). Warrior finds a west coast, follows the coast to the south, and looks for seafood. In T12, I get a Worker from Koe, and decide to race for the Great Lighthouse. The wonder would add commerce to my coastal cities.

I want to avoid the northern jungle and settle some coastal cities. Both fish need border expansions, but Willem is Creative, so I can skip Mysticism (Monument), as each settlement will annex its fish in 5 turns. I want my 2nd city on the southeastern X, to apply its 2 seafood, 5 forests, and 2 hills toward the Great Lighthouse. It needs to build 2 Work Boats and a Lighthouse before the Great Lighthouse. I will adopt Slavery before I begin the Lighthouse.

Worker completes Koe's cow pasture in T16, then begins to make farms on flood plains (because I can't make cottages). Koe makes Warriors (to watch the jungle for barbarians), until T24, when it reaches size 3 and begins a Settler. I meet Brennus in T17. Bronze Working finds copper 1W3S of Koe in T34. I settle Vuurtoren "lighthouse" (2nd, 2640 BC T34) and also adopt Slavery, so Vuurtoren suffers its 1st turn in anarchy. Brennus will adopt Slavery in T50. If I go 80% science in T35, the game would round my 12 commerce down to 11, as I would get 9 beakers and 2 gold. I go 0% science (12 gold) for 2 turns, then go 100% science (12 beakers).

Vuurtoren starts with a 3-hammer hill, then switches to a 4-hammer-1-commerce mine, and then to the fish. It completes T42 Work Boat, T45 Work Boat, T50 Lighthouse. Mistake! My slaves completed the Lighthouse 1 turn too early, before I know Masonry, so I can't overflow into the Great Lighthouse. Reload the auto-save of 2080 BC T48. Vuurtoren completes T51 Lighthouse, T63 Barracks, T71 The Great Lighthouse. (To be precise, I get the Great Lighthouse after I end my turn of 1200 BC T70.)

I settle Rijst "rice" (3rd, 1880 BC T53) and Corneria (4th, 1360 BC T66). I get lucky with a barb Archer, who might have attacked my Warrior in Corneria and razed the city. The barb instead attacks my Warrior outside Koe, with a 56.8% chance to win, but doesn't win. The barb Archer (and an earlier barb Warrior) both came from the west coast near 5W1N of Koe, where I had no vision. Corneria expands borders in T71, and now sees the west coast. I keep 3 Warriors in the northern jungle, so barbs don't spawn there. I have won all 3 combats, against a Panther, the Warrior, and the Archer.

I will settle my 5th city 3S of Koe (on the X), then I want no more cities until I can learn Iron Working and clear jungle. A city on 3S won't reach the 6S whale, but I don't want to settle on the 4S flood plains. The far side of the jungle has 2 ivory, by a hill 7N of Koe. In T71, both ivory are just outside Brennus's borders. I still expect Brennus to claim the ivory before I can move a Settler across the jungle, so I won't have ivory. I never found any horses, and I might or might not find iron, but I will have copper.
I want to research Metal Casting, so my copper can build the Colossus. My coastal cities get commerce from the Great Lighthouse, and would get more commerce from the Colossus, but only until Astronomy obsoletes the Colossus. I will need Astronomy for my unique unit (East Indiaman) and for overseas trade, because my continent probably has only Brennus.

 

[Alexander IV]

To t130

Spoiler :

t112 Brennus friendly

t123 I got GLib in Utrecht

t124 first to Music

t130 Taoism at that Northern city

Brennus stole Lit and Drama from me. He got 310 gold (Parthenon?), I took it+Hunting for Music. This let me self-tech Philo. (My first GS built an Academy in Amsterdam just before researching Music). Now towards Lib or Astro maybe. I want to finish NE in Utrecht before GAge/CS/Paci (6 turns left - 2 PH mines being worked (btw 1 of them popped copper few turns ago), clams swapped to another city, but Utrecht is still growing). Maybe it's not necessary but it's always a mess with GPP generation during GA. Feels so wrong to abandon those juicy cottages and starve.
It's a very interesting game, but enough for today I think

 

[Alexander IV]

@Pangaea @Kernigh

Spoiler :

But why didn't you settle Corneria 1E? (actually saw only 1000BC Pangaea's save, cause I met no other AI yet at t130, and there's a dotmap not a city yet) Wouldn't being on a river let you build a Dike in future?

 

[AcaMetis]

@Alexander IV

Spoiler :

That's one of the unique aspects of the Dike:

The UB: The Dike, a Levee with +1 on Water tiles as well as River tiles. As an added bonus Dikes can be build in any city that has a coast/ocean tile within it's BFC, in addition to cities that are settled alongside a river. Note that a city that merely has river and/or Lake tiles within it's BFC cannot build a Dike, even though both would benefit from it. A city must either be riverside or have coast/ocean within it's BFC to build a Dike.

(I actually can't recall exactly how it works off the top of my head, but I assume past me actually did some testing to figure it out)

 

[Alexander IV]

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

Then my Delft would have been better 1W of its location. I didn't read carefully, my bad. Thought it's like a usual levee on a river. Thanks for pointing that out!

 

[Pangaea]

I decided to have a second go of sorts, by reloading the turn before things went extra sour. Up to 1260AD now.

Spoiler :

Started over the turn before Hatty won Lib. She got it the same turn, but I got the pick, and went for the little cheaper Economics for the free GM. Brennus has Artemis, so I sent him up there, which fetched 1300. Not a lot, but it got me to Steel. Got some more money along the way too. Which actually meant I could upgrade a pack of trebs right away.

Slight pickle though. We needed Iron. The AI will gladly trade away that for a piece of fish or sheep to anybody else. To us? Not quite.

Spoiler :

He wanted 156 without the copper

Okay. Let's try this damn thing again, see if we can get anywhere this time.

Spoiler :

Upgrade units with all our gold.

Declare and invade next turn.

Not smooth sailing this time either, he has a lot of units, but we manage to hold our own better, even if cannons need to defend from time to time. Other times I smash into stack, and slowly pick off units afterwards. Feeling a little surrounded here... but I'm glad those are mostly HAs. Plenty of samurais all over too, but cannons can sort of deal with those in the open too.

Spoiler :

The usual BS of everybody going Mercantilism, which meant the economy went into tailspin. I absolutely hate that crap. Yeah, I'm sure it's nice for the AI who don't have to care about an economy, particularly Brennus in Rep, but for me it's always a huge problem when this happens.

Spoiler :

Later I wondered about taking an anarchy hit and going Mercantilism myself, despite having Free Market, but in the end I didn't. With SPI I definitely would have, tho.

It has taken many turns of bombarding, withstanding counters and collateral, and slowly withering down his units in the open, and getting rid of city defenders. But finally we are ready to take his blasted capital.

Spoiler :

I've taken a fair few cities off him, from two fronts, and will FINALLY secure our own iron up north (the previous super extortionate deal has been cancelled after a whipping frenzy). However, Toku isn't interested in capping yet. Not sure I quite want to either, because then Brennus won't be friendly any more, due to being pleased with Toku himself.

The AIs are as usual flying away. For now I still have Steel on them, but that won't last long once one of them get it. Brennus especially is well ahead. All of them are really, even Toku has been catching up despite being bogged down in a war. Don't know how they do it, but they always do it

Current tech situation

Spoiler :

Can get my hands on Democracy from Zara, but that doesn't really do anything for me. Unless I have to go to our most hated civic, that is. Only Brennus has flipped so far, but it already hurts a lot in Amsterdam.

Brennus is plotting btw. Whoever he comes after, possibly Hatty, will have a very tough time.

Is it possible to salvage this game? Save attached if somebody wants to take a look.

 

[Alexander IV]

Spoiler To t148 :

Couldn't stop thinking of the game the whole day. Lib? Astro? Or even Engineering and DoW celts when I got iron now?
After some consideration decided not to ruin my Friendship Economy. Astro - Brennus got Compass and Machinery, so no point to self tech this line at all. Then - Lib. And while getting there trade Astro prerequisites from Brennus.

So, I research CoL, then half of Compass to trade for the rest + 50 gold, but next turn there is no gold already. Ok, research half of MC to get both for my CoL. And next turn - this pleasant moment of friendship:

That was t135, and this is t136:

Iron in Rotterdam pops up, very good!
CoL for MC+30 gold.
Here's t138 - Brennus' culture bomb, I don't have Marble any more. But no big deal, we rearrange our old deals later, and my copper+clam is enough to pay for everything he's got to trade.

Next turns I'm preparing for GAge - nothing special, just grow and fill the granaries. Tried to get a GP in every city with GPP generated, but as usual Maastricht just wasted 3 or 4 good citizens for nothing. Well maybe someday...

1 turn before GAge NE-city Utrecht gives a 2nd GS (1st is an academy).

So, GAge (started by Music GA) (tt138-145).

Selftech CS and Paper and 1bulb Edu (+3 turns teching).
3rd GS from Hague - he will 1bulb Lib after self teching Calendar at t148.
Then GM in Amsterdam - Bibracte trade mission, 900 gold (just in time after spending last money on 3 turns Edu teching).
4th GS from Utrecht again, not used.
Switching out of Paci. Monarchy/Bureau/Caste/OR.

T148:

A bit tired to make new decisions today. I still can put some beakers in Machinery and then Optics and Lib Astro - F9 says Notre Dame is the latest wonder in New World, I doubt they beat me to Lib if I delay it a bit. But GAge is so cool, I could grow once more while building Taj...

 

[soundjata]

Deity T148

Spoiler :

Proceeded with @Snowbird plan (knowing all about the "ivory trade" possibility )
So elepult Celtia

Very easy configuration at start : barbs are a non issue.
By turn 60 we reach this situation : emphasis on production first (AH > BW > workers and settlers) then on commerce (cottages).

Spoiler :

Next we OB with Brennus, get sailing and +2 traderoutes, build a single library in the cap, research Math and wait for it to chop > cities 5 and 6.

Spoiler :

After Math comes Masonry/Construction and we chop for failgold into mids, which was totally in retrospect.

10 turns later we start assembling units and do #the trade# with Celtia : Copper <> Elephants + Wine
Took a couple of turns for missionaries to invade then Brennus kindly asked us to join his religion, we did oblige and now the dude is pleased.
Means of production will be mostly Whip as you can see : forests went into ~150 failgold

Spoiler :

T101 we're onto Vienne, having built 13 catapults, 11 elephants and 3 axes

Spoiler :

Vienne is taken T104, Bibracte T110.
We don't know how much he's got or how close to longbows he is because he spent so many EP on us...

Spoiler :

9 turns later we took 3 more cities : Gergovia, Camulodunum and Durocortorum.
We sign peace for Monarchy, Currency and Iron Working.
We start researching Machinery for no particular reason except it's on the way to Astro and Engineering.

Spoiler :

Second war was delayed (too much) as we try growing the cities a little.
Brennus accepts to open borders but no foreign traderoutes are granted He trades us wine again
Second dow T139 with a bunch of extra catapults, elephants and crossbows.
Brennus spent his EP doing nasty stuff. Now we know he's a weakling (we have 1.3 times his power)

Spoiler :

He built many +2 hill defense Garlic Warriors but only 2 of his smallest cities were on hills
T148 we sign peace for the second time, getting Optics, Feudalism and Alphabet in the process.
Celtia is now a one city civilization named Bagacum

Spoiler :

We meet Hapsetsut because of Optics although we can't see any unit from her.
We delete around 20 units at this stage (to decrease expenses) and keep 9 good Elephants and 11 good Catapults for Bagacum.

Spoiler units built / units killed :

Now another game begins.
I started 4 caravels (too many?)
I researched COL and intend to build Courthouses and the Forbidden City.
Priority #1 is meeting all AIs.
Priority #2 is Astro probably?
For the moment I am reluctant on researching Calendar. Research at 100% costs is 223 for 339 .

Spoiler Financial Advisor :

Long term, I would like to build a commerce and production power island including universal suffrage and émancipation. Target SOL.
I've been lean on GP production : Only 1 GS so far (late Academy). Population is low.

Spoiler :

There is also a Great general in reserve : boost one of the caravels?
I'm planning to abuse failgold on national (marble) wonders. and specialize a few cities somewhat...

Suggestions welcome

 

[Pangaea]

Brennus accepts to open borders but no foreign traderoutes are granted

Peaceturns would have to build up first. That (possible) 150% modifier is what boosts the trade routes.

Great stuff with the wars though. Shows that it's probably the best move. Slower to Astro ofc, but probably worth it.

 

[Alexander IV]

Spoiler Still t148 :

Spoiler At first I was like :

My plan for now is to take Nationalism and build Taj in OR, and 1bulb PP and Astro after, but there's one concern. The AIs from the other continent are about to appear, actually I'm surprised they are not here yet. I don't have that much experience with iso religion, and can't figure out, should I get out of Buddhism or should I stay in it. I think if I switch out of religion but still stay in OR, will it make any sense? I will loose 25/% hammers, will have to pay high upkeep for the civic, but we'll remain friends with Brennus (+11? must be enough?) and I won't be worst enemy of any hinduist or judaist heathens, especially if Izzy, Sal or Justinian are in the game. And will be able to open borders to get the trade routes after Astro. Looks like they don't have Astro and there's no threat for some time, but it won't last long and they don't need Astro to start plotting. So I don't know how to manage this better - switch out next turn, switch out when meet someone, switch out when first caravels ready or just build what I have to build and hope for the best. 25% of Taj with marble - how many turns OR saves? (And btw does OR % apply to building wealth?) Not sure if worth it. Besides wealth, I started on aqueducts and harbours, because my growth is slow. This can wait, of course.

As for me, I would choose at least build Taj with OR, then GAge with paci and only then switch out. But switching out next turn (this turn I'm getting Lib) feels like teching archery - a waste, but can save your life.

I cannot continue now, just wanted to buy map from Brennus. It's for only 5 gold, I doubt it reveals anything interesting, but there's a chance to see a coloured tile or two.

Spoiler But then :

The map I got for 5(!!!) gold. Lol. Nevermind. No archery this game.

Spoiler Btw :

I hadn't paid attention that Brennus got Swedagon Paya. He can switch to FR any turn and it is -12 to our relations. Well now it's +19, at least he won't start plotting immediately.

@soundjata @Pangaea

Spoiler :

What did you do to my dear friend Brennus I wonder?!

 

[konata_LS]

@Kernigh

Spoiler :

Going for GLH is creative indeed! It's fun to see different approaches of the same map

@Pangaea

Spoiler :

NC games are not competitive games. Nothing wrong when reloading or replaying a NC map, especially for people who just move up in difficulties . I did similar thing with NC284 (first attempt failed; game won in the second attempt).

Your situation looks much better at #27 FM is nice with intercontinental TR.
Maybe you'll have some chance to backstab Brennus? He has some nice cities.

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

Five players adopts five different strategies/paths in this map <-- Another great success in your map creation .

 

[konata_LS]

Monarch from T201 to T274.

Spoiler :

It's the first time I play semi-isolation and Engineering attacks at Monarch. So I watched some Engineering rush and semi-iso LP videos to find inspiration.

Going for Cuirs. Then got Communism and adopted SP-Caste.
Built some UUs and attack Hatty with Cuirs. She capitulated in 1625AD:


The real trouble was Suleiman: he had 15+ cities and Rifling, but he had no MT. A tough fight. He finally capitulated after losing half of his land and most of his units:


Built many sieges but lost all my catapults during the previous wars . Only 2 or 3 trebs survived and I upgraded them to Cannons.


Killed 20+ Rifles and some Grens


Cyrus converted to self-founded Taoism in 1780AD, ending the Confu lovefest in Zara's continent.


Tech situation on T274:


The situation looks a little tricky now. Toku is the most backward, and his land area is the largest among the remaining rivals. But Toku has a DP with Cyrus. OTOH, Zara is quite advanced, but he only has 8 cites.


Must taka a break now. Not sure which AI will be my next targer .

 

[AcaMetis]

@Alexander IV

Spoiler :

I think if I switch out of religion but still stay in OR, will it make any sense? I will loose 25/% hammers, will have to pay high upkeep for the civic, but we'll remain friends with Brennus (+11? must be enough?)

OR without a well spread (or at least spread to key locations) state religion is only worth it if you have to build missionaries quickly. This could be considered a unique situation for it, since you're semi-iso with Brennus "OR for life" the Menace, but...

and I won't be worst enemy of any hinduist or judaist heathens, especially if Izzy, Sal or Justinian are in the game. And will be able to open borders to get the trade routes after Astro

One thing you can do in this situation is gift newly met AIs 10 gold. Since Fair Trade diplo is dependant on how much you've "given" an AI relative to how long you've known them a gift of 10 gold upon first contact will immediately give you +4 Fair Trade, which should be enough to get to Caution and open borders. The bonus will degrade to nothing very quickly, but once open borders are signed AIs are very reluctant to break it, so even if you're not liked you'll have your trade routes. Whether that's worth the cost of staying in Brennus' good graces depends, though.

(And btw does OR % apply to building wealth?)

It does not. Wealth only benefits from unconditional bonuses to output, like a Forge or Factory. OR boosts your hammers when building buildings, not when building units or wealth. That's not to say you can't pull some shenanigans to get more overflow out of OR, but for one that wouldn't translate into Wealth and for another you'd have to constantly eat Anarchy if you're not SPI, so as Willem that's definitely not something you need to worry about.

I hadn't paid attention that Brennus got Swedagon Paya. He can switch to FR any turn and it is -12 to our relations. Well now it's +19, at least he won't start plotting immediately.

+7 should still be enough to at least get him up to Pleased, and Brennus doesn't plot at Pleased. So even if he does go FR (very unlikely, he's a zealot and OR is his favorite civic besides) he shouldn't start plotting on you.

You might think "hey, that's something to consider RE: Me wanting to swap out of his religion/OR", but keep in mind that if he swaps out he can't ask you to run his religion/civic, since he's not running it himself. If you're the one switching out he will ask you to switch back, and refusing will give you diplo penalties that might be enough to get you below Pleased.

@konata_LS

Spoiler :

Five players adopts five different strategies/paths in this map <-- Another great success in your map creation .

And to think this map was a hastily arranged map after like six iso maps failed to impress. This NC map making deal really is more Zen and Civ IV RNG interpretation than anything that I could explain as making logical sense, and yet it works.

 

[Alexander IV]

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

Thank you for detailed answer! As for a demand from Brennus it was a precious note - was very careless of me not to consider it at all... And this could be 2 turns of anarchy just for nothing - because of course I wouldn't dare...

Spoiler "OR for life" :

I was thinking of some strong AI like Justinian with both hinduist and judaist shrines, somewhere near Optics or Astro, having no heathen enemies on its landmass but with a SoD in his capital waiting for some bloody buddhist face to appear... (I saw at least one GG message, so a SoD is possible.)
But messing with Brennus to please Ramsy or Hatty is not the right way to success. Now we can just guess but he may be the strongest techer of the rest AIs with shrines and wonders, but he's not near a threat like Brennus. He may even be a vassal of some warmonger. Like say Toku or someone else not very good in teching. (Otherwise why they have not come for me to this point) And warmongers mostly don't care much about religion. I am going to buy new maps every turn to stay tuned, but for now I stick to general plan - Buddhism, OR, Taj.

Spoiler "The bonus will degrade to nothing very quickly" :

That's true, and this is why I considered getting out of religion. I thought maybe it would be more profitable to trade techs with New World. That's because they seem to be less advanced. I'm warrying I would feed Brennus too much, what if I could trade with somebody else, who's not his worst enemy of course. Well Ramsy will trade techs at cautious anyway. And "less advanced" is not for long.

Spoiler "pull some shenanigans" :

Sounds like additional world of micromanagement.

Spoiler "if he swaps out he can't ask you" :

That's definitely an important thing to keep in mind!

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Worst case scenario, Brennus can be bribed to war at cautious against cautious. If he drops below pleased and can start plotting war you can send him someone else's way, and if an overseas AI feels the need to bring the inquisition you can send Brennus over to axe some questions in turn.

It might not be the best move to make, having Brennus spam units he can't use on anyone but you might end poorly and making him a target of a stronger AI likewise sounds sketchy at best, but if it keeps you alive for a few turns longer that's time to try and pull a win out of something.

 

[Alexander IV]

@AcaMetis

Spoiler :

Some turns ago for whatever reason he moved his big stack from West to East. That's the 1st time from Paper I bought his map, not sure when he met Egypt. There's a good chance that even switching to Taoism won't make me any immediate harm now. Because I think despite lovely OR he may have something on his hands right now. Besides I have techs to bribe him if needed, and I'm calm, I am calm. =)

Spoiler A spoiler in a spoiler :

I liked very much Dirk1302's approach to a similar map in a thread I linked before. I've never done anything like Communism - Democracy - Military (Rifling will do here). I have 25 villages. My commerse is better than production. Kremlin is great. I have a chance to get it. Kremlin is production without sacrificing population in slavery or nationalism. That's my long term plan (but of course I reconsider every turn). I think I would pay even OR without religion to prolong my peaceful development towards these goals.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I am unsure why @soundjata is the only one that

Spoiler :

settled on top of one of the jungle gems. It is the only available source of happiness for a long time. Also, the only one that went for early construction? Creative colosseums are great value. Finally, why are people worried about over-expansion when the leader is financial there are foreign trade routes? Semi-isolation is not isolation.

 

[soundjata]

@AcaMetis

Spoiler A spoiler in a spoiler :

I liked very much Dirk1302's approach to a similar map in a thread I linked before. I've never done anything like Communism - Democracy - Military (Rifling will do here). I have 25 villages. My commerse is better than production. Kremlin is great. I have a chance to get it. Kremlin is production without sacrificing population in slavery or nationalism. That's my long term plan (but of course I reconsider every turn). I think I would pay even OR without religion to prolong my peaceful development towards these goals.

Does Rushbuy get enhanced by OR ?

 

[Pangaea]

I am unsure why @soundjata is the only one that

I did as well, but not very early, and in fairness wanted to settle 1N of it.

Does Rushbuy get enhanced by OR ?

No, pretty sure it doesn't. Kremlin does help, but the formula always confuses/escapes me. Same with whipping.