Nobles' Club 289: Willem van Oranje of the Netherlands

I am unsure why @soundjata is the only one that
Spoiler :

settled on top of one of the jungle gems. It is the only available source of happiness for a long time. Also, the only one that went for early construction? Creative colosseums are great value. Finally, why are people worried about over-expansion when the leader is financial there are foreign trade routes? Semi-isolation is not isolation.

Late to the party, but did do the above.

Spoiler T115 1AD: :


Seeing how the land could be backfilled, I went AH, The Wheel, Pottery, Mining, BW to accelerate commerce.

My plan had been to share religion with Brennus and gift a city to reach Friendly for tech trades. Didn't really want to eliminate him if it delayed Astro for conquering rest of the map. However, I guess he just has a very high friendship bar: +12 and only pleased, so he only traded Monarchy to me. Oops. However, don't really need anything essential from him other than Calendar/Aesthetics on the way to Astro.

Screenshot (455).png


Reached Civil Service at 250 BC without worrying about optics bulbs. Looking for early lib for Astro.

 
Those are some funky-looking roads.
Spoiler :
Seeing as you play without the BUG mod, he's probably not friendly due to the hidden modifier of "first impression". Could be -2 there, and therefore +9 combined. Usually +10 is enough for friendly. Which you will get shortly anyway from religion, or OB (max +2), or OR (heh).
 
And now we have the trifecta
Spoiler :
of early religions founded by Mr. nice neighbour :w00t:
 
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50 turns later (T198)
Spoiler :
100% Peaceful turnset except the annexion of Bagacum.
Population went from 100 to 225.
Research went Astronomy > Education (use a bulb) > Constitution > Democracy > Banking > Chemistry > Corporation pretty much.
Everything else was traded for. Trade partners are so nice: no WFYABTA in sight...
Used the available great prophet for a first golden age > Pacifism > Generate a couple of GP > Another golden age.
In that period I was worse enemy of several due to religion.
I used OR quite a lot to build infra (courthouses, forges)
Nobody was plotting though.
Zara stole my SOL and my Kremlin as I switched to Universal Suffrage, Emancipation and Free religion.
Diplomacy solved.
After Democracy and Banking, save gold and rushbuy Banks and other commerce multipliers.
After Steam power, save again (around 1700 gold / turn) and rushbuy Dikes.
Store gold into Hermitage, National and Heroic epic (still undecided where to put those)
Next we can research Assembly line in 3 turns, rushbuy Factories and swarm something something...
I'm not sure about plan details though :lol:
There is still room for growth on the cottage front:

We are researching at 2000 :science: / turn. No army whatsoever.
Zara is plotting but not on us. Probably on poor Tokugawa the caveman.
Zara is a juicy target because of Kremlin, but it does not look practical in terms of logistics.

Our glorious starting location:

Thoughts? :spear:
 

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From T274 to the end
Spoiler :

Settings as below,, no trival village:


Sent Cannons, Grens, Rifles and Cavs to attack Zara. He capitulated on T288:


Then DoW Toku. Who cares about the DP between Toku and Cyrus. Just spam units and zerg them all :ar15:.
We have enough on our hands right now :ar15:


Domination on T309


Willem's UB suits water-heavy maps. I like Dikes because it helps me in unit-spamming. :ar15:


Killed 50+ Grens and 30+ Rifles :ar15:


IMHO, semi-isolation maps may be a little tough for people who've just moved up in a new difficulty. But for people who want to try semi-iso for the first time at a difficulty level they're used to, this NC is a good one to start. The strong traits and starting techs of the leader helps much in the early game; the nice neighbour (Brennus does not plot at pleased) also makes this game more playable.


Thanks for the map. :)

PS: I wonder if ...
Spoiler :

... if Ragnar would do slightly better than Willem in this map :think:

Considering the number of AIs' coastal cities (and several AIs have coastal capitals), Amphibious Berserkers are quite good. And they can be built with Copper. If playing as Ragnar in this map, it would be possible to try some early naval invasion with Berserkers :D. For Renaissance and later eras, upgrading Berserkers to Amphibious Rifles/Grens and send them in the 6 :move: (circumnavigation bonus + Trading Post) galleons would be fun :viking:.
 
Spoiler :

@konata_LS
Spoiler :
And to think this map was a hastily arranged map after like six iso maps failed to impress. This NC map making deal really is more Zen and Civ IV RNG interpretation than anything that I could explain as making logical sense, and yet it works.

Personal preference varies. Some players (for example krikav and Lain) like isolation maps; others might prefer to avoid iso. I have no special interest or resentment towards iso maps. One or two iso games would be fine for me. But I don't play frequently iso maps, because one of my weaknesses is the diplomacy during the early game. I still remember a DoW from AI Justinian in an old game at Noble, around 300BC (very early date for Noble AIs), because I settled on his face and didn't convert to his religion. In another game I was sandwiched between Hindu Mehmed (or Charlie, can't remember) and Jewish Sury - Sury declared on me around 1AD because I convert to Hinduism. So the diplomacy before 1AD - sometimes before 500AD - is often what worries me the most. In iso games, the diplomacy becomes a concern only many turns after the early phase, thus iso cannot provide me with challenges or opportunities to overcome my weakness.
 
Spoiler :
I had planned on an Iso game since it's been a while since the last, and Willem is as good a leader as any for one's first dip into Iso between his strong traits and unique stuff that's very strong on water heavy maps. The lack of SPI does complicate later diplo, but that's not the greatest concern if you can leverage CRE and FIN to get to that point early enough to pull stunts a less economically inclined leader couldn't manage. Unfortunately none of the iso maps I got I deemed good enough (long story short: All of them were some combination of tiny, starved for food/happiness and/or poor land), so I ended up with this semi-iso map instead. It had at least some happy (albeit happy covered in jungle and/or foreign culture), and enough quality space available to make a peaceful game viable. Though I did note Brennus' lack of Copper, and thus the option to trample him with his own elephants :goodjob:.

Seems like it worked, too. So that's another success for the Civ IV RNG :king:.
 
About rushbuy...
No, pretty sure it doesn't. Kremlin does help, but the formula always confuses/escapes me. Same with whipping.

I had always assumed that rushbuy was influenced by production buildings but tests indicates that it's not...

Apparently rushbuy cost is a flat 3X :hammers: cost for a normal building and a flat 4.5X for wonders.
With Kremlin it's 2X / 3X (what a wonder :cool:)

Consequence for my game
Spoiler :
Making Factories and Coalplants in every city is not necessary if production comes mainly from rushbuy.

Maybe if I build one of each in the capitol, on top of Heroic, that will be one less city to rushbuy from :crazyeye:
 
About rushbuy...


I had always assumed that rushbuy was influenced by production buildings but tests indicates that it's not...

Apparently rushbuy cost is a flat 3X :hammers: cost for a normal building and a flat 4.5X for wonders.
With Kremlin it's 2X / 3X (what a wonder :cool:)

Consequence for my game
Spoiler :
Making Factories and Coalplants in every city is not necessary if production comes mainly from rushbuy.

Maybe if I build one of each in the capitol, on top of Heroic, that will be one less city to rushbuy from :crazyeye:

Yeah, rushbuy for some reason doesn't care about forges and factories :(.

One of the reasons I consider it so bad...a 3:1 ratio is completely awful compared to a 1:3 food:hammers ratio you can approximately get with granary, forge, factory, and power. One is basically 10 times as efficient yield-wise as the other.
 
Continued this one at demigod, which to me has pretty much played exactly as Deity, perhaps with some exceptions in the early game, because they don't expand quite as quickly. Past 1600AD.
Spoiler :
Jesus, this has been brutal! :sad:

Earlier I had been able to overcome Tokugawa, who was pretty backwards, but was in the process of catching up during the war. I moved on to declare on Zara. I did have Steel and Cannons, but otherwise it was tech parity, at least early on. Shouldn't have split up forces by landing 6cannons+6killers next to a city. They got countered, then quickly slaughtered by a group of cavalry. Amazing how quickly they can tear through cannons. Wiped out entirely. They were on the horse tile, and my thinking was to take that city, then perhaps move SW for the other one. Very optimistic!
NC 289 T203 stack wiped out.jpg


Until now we had paid out the nose in maintenance, mainly colonial, so it felt incredible to finally get Communism. No chance for a golden age any time soon, so I did a quadruple civic change, which meant 3 turns of anarchy. Hurts a lot ofc, but felt it had to be done. And a couple of Japanese cities were still in revolt, which softened the blow a little. Went Rep-Nationhood-Caste-State property -- but kept Theo for some XP in our starting land, and OR kinda felt wasted anyway at this point.

Struggled a bit when moving inlands towards Lalibela too, because there was no protection, and I mostly had grenadiers at the time. Cavalry tear right through those too. Once again we got hit hard. Later took Lalibela, but then had to sit tight for a while.
NC 289 T206 more death.jpg


I'm drafting like crazy, but mostly back home, because the new cities don't have 10% culture yet. Therefore it takes a long time for them to reach the frontlines. That's why I had to basically sit tight in Lalibela for a while, tho with some drafted units for reinforcements from a few former Japanese cities too. Then almost all cannons are gone, and I had 21, so I need to start producing those. Hurts to not be able to whip in moments like that. However, we were transitioning the Japanese heartland to a hammer economy, and some of these cities were really quite nice. Built Heroic Epic over there as well. During this time, I see that Zara can tech Assembly Line. Oh joy. Brennus already has it, and Hatty is teching up very fast, despite probably being in culture mode. Again, I've no idea how they do it, but it always happens. Era super bonuses and all that crap.

Suddenly we spot Brennus moving through our land with a stack of artillery (aye, that too). Looks like he will DOW Zara or Cyrus. A frigate on the 'wrong' side of Japan also spot a stack of boats heading towards Cyrus, so he must be the target, but my frigate keeps moving so can't keep watch. Some turns later he declares on Cyrus, and Cyrus bribes in Brennus. Right about here I was feeling **** about the game, because it felt like it was firmly slipping out of control, the AIs were going way too fast, and I was bogged down in a war, not really getting too much progress. So Brennus getting into a war with Suleiman was great.

The war against Zara is a long slog, but around turn 220 he capitulates. Took around 20 turns. And I thought a cease-fire with Cyrus for 10 turns may prove problematic :lol: Turns out Zara was only 4 turns from infantry himself. Phew! We did this trade once he had become my vassal:
NC 289 T220 Zara trade.jpg


I quite desperately needed both, and didn't want to put gold into techs everybody had. One step closer to infantry too.

Unfortunately Cyrus already has that, which is going to prove problematic.
NC 289 T220 Cyrus with AL.jpg


Brennus got his ministack virtually wiped out, only a cavalry limped back alive. Thankfully cultural borders are kind here (I gave back the captured cities to Zara). Tons of infantry inside, so once again we get low on cannon count. Takes a long time before fights are 'gimmes' too, because infantry are sooooo tough.
NC 289 T222 attack.jpg


We do take the city, though, which felt good. Until we spot what's in store further up the road:
NC 289 T223 next infantry stack.jpg


Oh dear... an AI landing? A rare sight, but not a pleasant one. These cities are defended by warriors! :eek:
NC 289 T227 Cyrus invasion force.jpg


Had no choice but to draft mercilessly again, altho these cities were already over the red line. A cavalry or two got produced as well, and I paid 310 gold or thereabouts for a warrior->rifleman upgrade. Got 4-5 rifles in the city before he could attack. The cavalry managed to win the fight and damage a few of his trebs. Think he would have taken the city had he attacked with all he had, but thankfully he did not. A GG was born in the capital, and I sent him down to the city to promotion heal. That helped for the next turn's attack, as some of the rifles got city guardian II. Suicided a bunch of boats too, to take out his armada of ship of the line and frigates. Sadly they weren't in position to try that before he landed. That would have been nice.

Turn 231, and we've finally put enough into Artillery to make the AL trade with Zara possible. I set him on Electricity, which he promptly traded with somebody.

It's now 1615AD, and Cyrus has finally capitulated. I only managed to take that one city (edit: oops, plus one more),but had upgraded some rifles to infantry, plus some cannons to artillery (which he promptly wiped out with infantry as they became top defenders, argh!). Maybe those upgrades meant we had enough power, or maybe it was some kills we made here and there. Zara also invaded and looked set to take a city, so he was a little worn down by then.

Hatty sits on a mountain of gold, and here is the tech situation currently. Brennus has already built Apollo, but no parts yet. Hatty has two cities at ~20000 culture.
NC 289 T233 techs.jpg


A bunch of infantry have been killed. But it cost us many cannons and a host of other units. It's downright infuriating to keep losing fights, one after the other, at 85-90%. Sickening how this can happen tbh. It simply feels terribly unfair when that happens. You expect to lose one like that here and there, certainly, but not a long string like that. Anyway, the bastards still died in the end.
NC 289 T233 kills.jpg


Although the scoreboard looks more uplifting now, the tech situation does not. Hatty has destroyers, machine guns and ofc infantry. Brennus has everything too. Am not sure how to proceed here. And there is a good chance Suleiman builds the UN soon-ish too. Think he has the tech by now.

Maybe I can travel back to our starting continent and try to deal with Brennus. At least supply will be a little easier there. Hmm, or perhaps not. Production is much higher in former Japan tbh, including the HE city 1-turning artillery (or near enough). But there is a long way to Suleiman's land too, with my boats far away and on the 'wrong' side of Japan. Will take time, and I'm feeling a bit jaded with this game now. End-game warfare like this is brutal, and taxing on the game too. It becomes laggy much quicker than usual.

Probably nobody will check it out, but I've attached the save game.
 

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  • NC 289 Willem AD-1615-Cyrus capped.CivBeyondSwordSave
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Spoiler :
... none of the iso maps I got I deemed good enough (long story short: All of them were some combination of tiny, starved for food/happiness and/or poor land...

I understand the thought process but
Spoiler :

if not Willem, then who? Which leaders are better-suited for "tiny, starved for food/happiness and/or poor land" isolation starts? I can only think of the American leaders.
 
Continued this one at demigod, which to me has pretty much played exactly as Deity, perhaps with some exceptions in the early game, because they don't expand quite as quickly. Past 1600AD.
Spoiler :
Jesus, this has been brutal! :sad:

Earlier I had been able to overcome Tokugawa, who was pretty backwards, but was in the process of catching up during the war. I moved on to declare on Zara. I did have Steel and Cannons, but otherwise it was tech parity, at least early on. Shouldn't have split up forces by landing 6cannons+6killers next to a city. They got countered, then quickly slaughtered by a group of cavalry. Amazing how quickly they can tear through cannons. Wiped out entirely. They were on the horse tile, and my thinking was to take that city, then perhaps move SW for the other one. Very optimistic!
View attachment 614470

Until now we had paid out the nose in maintenance, mainly colonial, so it felt incredible to finally get Communism. No chance for a golden age any time soon, so I did a quadruple civic change, which meant 3 turns of anarchy. Hurts a lot ofc, but felt it had to be done. And a couple of Japanese cities were still in revolt, which softened the blow a little. Went Rep-Nationhood-Caste-State property -- but kept Theo for some XP in our starting land, and OR kinda felt wasted anyway at this point.

Struggled a bit when moving inlands towards Lalibela too, because there was no protection, and I mostly had grenadiers at the time. Cavalry tear right through those too. Once again we got hit hard. Later took Lalibela, but then had to sit tight for a while.
View attachment 614471

I'm drafting like crazy, but mostly back home, because the new cities don't have 10% culture yet. Therefore it takes a long time for them to reach the frontlines. That's why I had to basically sit tight in Lalibela for a while, tho with some drafted units for reinforcements from a few former Japanese cities too. Then almost all cannons are gone, and I had 21, so I need to start producing those. Hurts to not be able to whip in moments like that. However, we were transitioning the Japanese heartland to a hammer economy, and some of these cities were really quite nice. Built Heroic Epic over there as well. During this time, I see that Zara can tech Assembly Line. Oh joy. Brennus already has it, and Hatty is teching up very fast, despite probably being in culture mode. Again, I've no idea how they do it, but it always happens. Era super bonuses and all that crap.

Suddenly we spot Brennus moving through our land with a stack of artillery (aye, that too). Looks like he will DOW Zara or Cyrus. A frigate on the 'wrong' side of Japan also spot a stack of boats heading towards Cyrus, so he must be the target, but my frigate keeps moving so can't keep watch. Some turns later he declares on Cyrus, and Cyrus bribes in Brennus. Right about here I was feeling **** about the game, because it felt like it was firmly slipping out of control, the AIs were going way too fast, and I was bogged down in a war, not really getting too much progress. So Brennus getting into a war with Suleiman was great.

The war against Zara is a long slog, but around turn 220 he capitulates. Took around 20 turns. And I thought a cease-fire with Cyrus for 10 turns may prove problematic :lol: Turns out Zara was only 4 turns from infantry himself. Phew! We did this trade once he had become my vassal:
View attachment 614474

I quite desperately needed both, and didn't want to put gold into techs everybody had. One step closer to infantry too.

Unfortunately Cyrus already has that, which is going to prove problematic.
View attachment 614475

Brennus got his ministack virtually wiped out, only a cavalry limped back alive. Thankfully cultural borders are kind here (I gave back the captured cities to Zara). Tons of infantry inside, so once again we get low on cannon count. Takes a long time before fights are 'gimmes' too, because infantry are sooooo tough.
View attachment 614476

We do take the city, though, which felt good. Until we spot what's in store further up the road:
View attachment 614477

Oh dear... an AI landing? A rare sight, but not a pleasant one. These cities are defended by warriors! :eek:
View attachment 614478

Had no choice but to draft mercilessly again, altho these cities were already over the red line. A cavalry or two got produced as well, and I paid 310 gold or thereabouts for a warrior->rifleman upgrade. Got 4-5 rifles in the city before he could attack. The cavalry managed to win the fight and damage a few of his trebs. Think he would have taken the city had he attacked with all he had, but thankfully he did not. A GG was born in the capital, and I sent him down to the city to promotion heal. That helped for the next turn's attack, as some of the rifles got city guardian II. Suicided a bunch of boats too, to take out his armada of ship of the line and frigates. Sadly they weren't in position to try that before he landed. That would have been nice.

Turn 231, and we've finally put enough into Artillery to make the AL trade with Zara possible. I set him on Electricity, which he promptly traded with somebody.

It's now 1615AD, and Cyrus has finally capitulated. I only managed to take that one city (edit: oops, plus one more),but had upgraded some rifles to infantry, plus some cannons to artillery (which he promptly wiped out with infantry as they became top defenders, argh!). Maybe those upgrades meant we had enough power, or maybe it was some kills we made here and there. Zara also invaded and looked set to take a city, so he was a little worn down by then.

Hatty sits on a mountain of gold, and here is the tech situation currently. Brennus has already built Apollo, but no parts yet. Hatty has two cities at ~20000 culture.
View attachment 614479

A bunch of infantry have been killed. But it cost us many cannons and a host of other units. It's downright infuriating to keep losing fights, one after the other, at 85-90%. Sickening how this can happen tbh. It simply feels terribly unfair when that happens. You expect to lose one like that here and there, certainly, but not a long string like that. Anyway, the bastards still died in the end.
View attachment 614480

Although the scoreboard looks more uplifting now, the tech situation does not. Hatty has destroyers, machine guns and ofc infantry. Brennus has everything too. Am not sure how to proceed here. And there is a good chance Suleiman builds the UN soon-ish too. Think he has the tech by now.

Maybe I can travel back to our starting continent and try to deal with Brennus. At least supply will be a little easier there. Hmm, or perhaps not. Production is much higher in former Japan tbh, including the HE city 1-turning artillery (or near enough). But there is a long way to Suleiman's land too, with my boats far away and on the 'wrong' side of Japan. Will take time, and I'm feeling a bit jaded with this game now. End-game warfare like this is brutal, and taxing on the game too. It becomes laggy much quicker than usual.

Probably nobody will check it out, but I've attached the save game.

I think you are in a good position
Spoiler :
Half the AI capped, half the job done :bounce:
The two most powerful AIs are at war...
You need scouting : does Hatty have a big stack? Are the 3 island cities easy picking?
How does the Suleiman / Brennus front perform? There could be a good opportunity soon to backstab Brennus !

Maybe you should Tech up while moving the army.
Build wealth everywhere except Kyoto and Amsterdam (Factory + Coal Plant).
Next weapons of choice would be tanks and nukes. Both require uranium and I wonder why you can't trade for that...
Could it be that AI never trade for this resource :confused:
Otherwise Manhatan Project would be ~8 turns in Kyoto :devil:
 
Spoiler :
if not Willem, then who? Which leaders are better-suited for "tiny, starved for food/happiness and/or poor land" isolation starts? I can only think of the American leaders.
Good point, but I thought that even with Willem those maps would be too difficult for a NC game. Iso maps are difficult as is, and iso maps where you've got a grand total of two food resources and zero happy resources on your island even more so.
 
I think you are in a good position
Spoiler :
Half the AI capped, half the job done :bounce:
The two most powerful AIs are at war...
You need scouting : does Hatty have a big stack? Are the 3 island cities easy picking?
How does the Suleiman / Brennus front perform? There could be a good opportunity soon to backstab Brennus !

Maybe you should Tech up while moving the army.
Build wealth everywhere except Kyoto and Amsterdam (Factory + Coal Plant).
Next weapons of choice would be tanks and nukes. Both require uranium and I wonder why you can't trade for that...
Could it be that AI never trade for this resource :confused:
Otherwise Manhatan Project would be ~8 turns in Kyoto :devil:
Spoiler :
Thanks, those are good points. I'll send some airships around next turn and see what's up. Don't think there has been much action between Brennus and Suleiman yet, but some. Apart from that landing by Cyrus, the AI is usually crap at wars across continents, so I kinda doubt there has been big action. I'm seeing some war weariness, though, so probably not just boats.

Brennus is very advanced ofc, but intuitively I still kinda like that option, as I can use my own land as well, and cultural borders are pretty close in some places. Will take time to get the whole army back there, though, that's for certain.

I made mistakes with starting too many dikes. Have never built them before and kinda liked the idea of growing more of the cities onto diked-up coast tiles. You make a good point about building Wealth almost everywhere while teching up. Perhaps that is my best choice now. I'll need to get something on my vassals so I can trade for what they have too. I know GNP numbers are 'polluted' by EP and suchlike, which the AIs always love at this point in the game, but we're so far behind on GNP it's crazy. I think the AIs are building lots of Research at this stage of the game, when they don't build units and wonders, so that is probably part of it too. It all builds up to make it very hard to catch up on Deity.

About uranium, I don't think anybody technically have access to it yet. I see that Brennus has three sources, so should normally be able to trade (I think they will trade uranium and even oil, but it's crazy expensive). However, nobody has Fission yet, which is needed to enable the resource. Until then, we can only mine it for better/different yield, but not actually build nukes and suchlike. Or so it looks from the Civopedia. I don't often play this late in the game, apart from space games, so have little experience nukes, and tanks for that matter. Speaking of tanks, I probably need to get out some anti-tank units too. Brennus and the others are bound to have tanks any moment. Some probably do tbh, as I think you only need Combustion for Oil (and Industrialism).
 
My game reaches Caravels and I meet all AI civs. I begin to read the spoilers of other players.

Spoiler (Caravel!) Emperor, 1390 AD T199, ruining a good start :

In 1160 BC T71, I open borders with Brennus and get his trade routes, though my map has no city of his. He has a city on the west coast, 4 tiles north of the gem; I know Sailing and have a coastal trade route to this city.

Civ4ScreenShot0038.JPG


I fail to notice in T71 that Brennus has already connected ivory. The 2 ivory on my map are outside his borders, but he has 2 other ivory. I meet Brennus in 950 BC T77. He refuses to give his spare ivory because, "We just don't like you enough." I give a fish (for nothing), but get no diplomatic boost, because Brennus soon connects his own fish. My Warrior maps Brennus's civ, and some empty land to his north; my Warrior survives a barb Archer but dies to a barb Warrior. Brennus has better land than me; he has horse, iron, and ivory; I fear that his War Elephants would crush my Axemen in a war.

Brennus's missionary spreads Buddhism to Koe in T83, and I immediately convert to Buddhism, 1 turn before I settle Koper "copper" (my 5th city, 775 BC T84). Someone finishes the Oracle after I end my turn T86. I enter the classical era with Metal Casting in T87, then learn Mathematics in T95. Brennus annexes the last ivory, but I run a Settler across the jungle, and settle Six North (my 6th city, 400 BC T99).

Civ4ScreenShot0039.JPG


The new city is exactly 6 tiles north of my capital, and will steal the ivory in its 1st ring. (This ivory is in the 3rd ring of Brennus's Vienne.) Brennus misses his chance to declare war, steal my Workers near Six North, and deny ivory. Six North builds Granary, Library, Walls.

I fail the Colossus before I begin it. I would have begun the Colossus in T100 (which is 13 turns after I got Metal Casting), but someone completes the Colossus after I end T99, so I never get any gold for failing it. (I later get 165 gold for failing the Pyramids.) The Colossus needs a Forge in a coastal city. Vuurtoren completes my 1st Forge, but has no forests. I wait until I learn Math (to boost forest chops), then chop forests at Koper to complete my 2nd Forge in T100. This is too slow. Koper had wasted hammers on a Granary before its Forge.

I learn Alphabet in 300 BC T103 and expect to trade techs with Brennus, but he refuses, "We don't want to start trading away this technology just yet." Brennus has Hunting, Iron Working, and the techs before Monarchy. I decide to run for Monarchy, because my cities are unhappy. I research Mysticism, Polytheism, and Monarchy, then revolt in 50 BC T113 to adopt Organized Religion and Hereditary Rule (after 1 turn of anarchy). Because I don't know Hunting, I can quickly build Warriors (not Spearmen), who happify my cities.

I learn Iron Working in T119, and discover that I don't have iron. I also don't have horse, but do have ivory by Six North. I now want to use my ivory to build War Elephants to conquer Brennus's land and resources. Also in T119, Brennus and I race Settlers toward the gem on the west coast. In T120, Brennus's Settler is on the gem, but I have a road to the gem, so I move my Settler to the gem and immediately settle Gold Medal (my 7th city, 125 AD T120). I win the race by half a turn!

Civ4ScreenShot0040.JPG


The gem under Gold Medal becomes my 1st happy resource. The city will reach a fish and a rice, and needed Iron Working to remove the jungle from the rice. I research Currency for its trade route, then Construction, Horseback Riding, and Hunting, so I can attack Brennus with War Elephants and Catapults. After I end my turn 325 AD T128, I get my national Moai Statues in Corneria, adding hammers to its water tiles.

Civ4ScreenShot0041.JPG


Brennus becomes Friendly, because I had adopted his religion (Buddhism) and his favorite civic (Organized Religion). Friendly Brennus can trade techs, and I want his Code of Laws, so I give my 2 techs (Metal Casting, Alphabet) for his 4 techs (Code of Laws, Meditation, Priesthood, Archery).

Civ4ScreenShot0042.JPG


I research Machinery, Compass, then Optics in 800 AD T150. I find T151 Suleiman, T152 Hatshepsut, T161 Tokugawa, T163 Zara Yaqob, T164 Cyrus. In T169, "Your maps prove that the world is round! You receive a +1 ship movement bonus."

840 AD T152 is the big turn, as I convert to no state religion, then declare war on Brennus. My western stack of 5 War Elephants and 2 Catapults departs Gold Medal and captures a Worker. My eastern stack of 4 War Elephants and 6 Catapults departs Six North. This war is risky, because Brennus has the larger civ (he has 9 cities; I have 7), a tech advantage (Feudalism for Longbows, and later Guilds for Knights), and a resource advantage (horse and iron). Brennus began the war with a small army and too few War Elephants; I unplugged his last ivory in T170. My western army conquers Tolosa in 1000 AD T160.

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My eastern army gets stuck outside Vienne. Brennus surprises me with a stack of 1 Knight, 3 War Elephants, and 3 Catapults, who retake Tolosa in 1330 AD T173. He also slays most my units by Vienne. I reply by conquering Camulodunum in 1150 AD T175, on the west coast north of Tolosa. Brennus retakes Camulodunum in 1300 AD T190, then reconnects ivory.

I had researched Machinery, Compass, Optics, Engineering, Aesthetics, Literature; built the Heroic Epic in Corneria; built Trebuchets and more War Elephants; and acquired 2 Great Generals, who promoted 2 Spearmen to Medic III. As Brennus retakes Camulodunum, I move the western army of El Cid toward Tolosa, and the eastern army of Auitzotl toward Vienne. Brennus sacrifices Catapults to slay Auitzotl and most of my eastern army. El Cid's army takes Tolosa in 1350 AD T195, but Brennus also slays El Cid and retakes Tolosa in 1380 AD T198. I have lost all my conquests.

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My stats in T199 show big losses: 29 of 36 War Elephants, 16 of 17 Catapults, and 8 of 15 Trebuchets; but only 1 of 24 Axemen. So why do I have so many Axemen? My cities became unhappy, and I have Hereditary Rule, so I built more Axemen to happify my angry citizens. This was a mistake, because I wasted too many hammers on Axemen. It would be cheaper to build Archers; but I also have Slavery, so it might be better to whip away my angry citizens to build more War Elephants and siege units to attack Brennus, while keeping fewer defending units in cities where Brennus can't reach. My other mistake was to advance north from Tolosa to Camulodunum. Tolosa wasn't safe, because Brennus can easily attack Tolosa from Bibracte, his capital and Buddhist holy city.

I will rewind the game from T199 to T151 by loading an old save. I have the option to stay at peace, but I might redo this war.
 
@Kernigh
Spoiler :
In your play, building a city that gets Elephants was correct.
A couple of strategic decisions you missed:
1. Identify sooner that the way to winning the game goes through Elepulting Mr. nice neighbour Brennus.
2. From this point streamline your play much more : don't build too many cities, focus on science (good thing that Willem bleeds :commerce:), and most importantly beeline your tech path !
The detour to sailing is justifiable but you missed several precious turns going for Alphabet / Metal Casting / ... before Construction.

Hope this helped. Nice humour by the way :lol: Keep it up!

 
Going back to my game in the 1600s:
Spoiler :
Brennus had landed some SAM infantry near Ankara, and presumably had company of infantry and siege, but I only saw the three SAMs. Otherwise probably only boats fought. Would have been great with a proper bloody war between them, but they fairly soon sign peace. Meanwhile Suleiman has a big force of infantry near Hatty's border. Well, in his own cities really, but Hatty's massive culture are engulfing them. He also builds the UN in 1625AD. I become the opponent and is selected as secretary general off the back of my vassals+Brennus. Looking over the votes, I can potentially win UN with Brennus' vote, which I can get by going OR. I'm still short, and oddly enough keep going further away, because Brennus starves down his cities. Maybe he's going culture too or something, or maybe he lost some trades and cities starved. In any case, his vote count kept going down. He already had Emancipation so it wasn't due to whipping.
NC 289 T236 UN votes.jpg


1665AD and we get Industrialism in trade from vassal Cyrus. That enables Tanks. But I really don't have real production capacity on the home continent. Therefore I decide to go with Universal Suffrage, and buy them. It's expensive, but with the slider off we can buy some every two turns (not cold ofc, it's crazy expensive). Two turns later, still before I have declared on Brennus (army needs to get back home first), the tech screen scares me: He has Fission in the "won't trade" column. Which means he can build the Manhattan project and launch nukes. Not great :D

Suleiman's stack near Egypt keeps growing, and he has now started plotting. No prizes for who the target will be.
NC 289 T246 Suli stack.jpg


Our army has been shipped back, we have produced some tanks, so am ready. The main army will land on the hill outside Duro-something. While tanks plus other stuff will invade from the south.
NC 289 T247 landing stack.jpg


I even had upgraded a ship of the line to Destroyer. Knew Brennus had some of those nearby, but figured I'd lose some boats and then the rest would get back safe. He can't attack them all. Well...
NC 289 T248 boat massacre.jpg


Suppose he had already upgraded to a thousand destroyers, huh? Damn AI. Probably cost him a bag of chips :cry:

Suleiman declares on Egypt, and he has a million units. Just from the three stacks in view, I'm counting 72 units. Mostly tanks and infantry, but also marines and artillery. Egypt is hosed.

First order of business as UN secretary general is to call for peace, like the UN does. Usually the world ignores it, particularly the big powers with English accent, but in this game peace is actually re-established. Woot! Egypt would not have withstood that assault for long I suspect, although Hatty is no walkover either. These are the two most advanced civs now. Egypt didn't have tanks yet, but soon did.

Unfortunately this hadn't dawned on me yet, but it turned out that practically 100% of our siege units were sent on the land invasion, and I had nothing in the south. Infantry and tanks are nice and all, but they struggle to take 80% cultural cities. Brennus also keeps attacking us, and there isn't much good defensive terrain here. The few hills help, but we still get hit pretty hard, though we do also take the city there.
NC 289 T253 defensive action.jpg


As per usual, the AI will have a thousand destroyers, and controlling the seas is impossible. As a result many cities get besieged and lose the seafood. Cities are starting to starve down hard, including the capital (which was size 20 at the time). It's not due to happiness, but health and lack of tiles.

I struggled so long and so hard to make headway against Brennus. Flatland everywhere, and he has railroads everywhere, so anything is dangerous. He shows up with a fresh big stack every turn it seems. However, we did slowly wither him down it turned out. I'm scouting with airships, and attacking where it feels at least semi-safe (damn SAMs!!). Finally we are ready to take on Bibracte, full of wonders. I attack it with artillery, fighters and bombers (these too sadly suck, and easily get shot down in droves). Next turn we can attack it and I'm sure Brennus will then finally be willing to capitulate. He's willing to give us Bagacum (gee, thanks man!!!!) so should be close.

Next turn when we are going to attack... oooh look, 25 units in there. I wonder where they came from. However, he's willing to capitulate anyway, so I take it. Ultimately very frustrating due to all the bloodshed and struggles, and all other cities I captured being completely surrounded in culture and therefore starving down too, but what can you do. These Deity bonuses are crazy, and I didn't truly have enough attackers to take Bibracte that turn anyway. Perhaps not even the next one.

Due to starvation and whatnot, it still wasn't possible to win UN. Suleiman's cities are huge, 21-26 (!). Instead I bribe him onto war with Egypt. For science... No, really, I wanted to see what happened, how quickly he would overpower her. From counts in the military overview screen, Egypt has 31 Mechanized Infantry. No walkover as I said, but then Sulaiman has this, amongst others (notice the number next to the infantry...)
NC 289 T261 Suli stack.jpg


Very soon after this, and Suleiman has mechanized infantry too, definitely giving him the edge. Timing can be so important, and what may have otherwise proved a possible fight for Hatty due to better units/tech, turned into tech parity, where Suleiman would quite easily overwhelm her.

Oh look, then this happens. Yeah, she's having a bad day :lol:
NC 289 T273 Hatty nuked.jpg


She had actually held up surprisingly well, and defended several huge attacks where I was sure cities would fall. Eventually Byblos fell, but not until Suleiman invaded with 30-40 mechanised infantry on that front.

I keep voting for diplo win although I know it won't go through, but gotta do something.

Actually, let's do something for real. I wanted to reduce this stack a little:
NC 289 T283 Suli stack.jpg


Hatty has gotten nuked twice already, which you can probably tell from the above fallout. But sadly I learn the hard way that it isn't possible to attack the above stack. It's in friendly territory. The upcoming UN vote has us 1 vote short, which may turn favourable by natural growth and possibly unnatural decline for Egypt. But whatever, we have all these things sitting around :mischief:
NC 289 T283 Suli nuked.jpg


I'm terribly sorry for those workers bums, that probably got burned. If they survived, they can pick up bacon and fried corn.

Looks like Suleiman got a little upset as well.
NC 289 T283 Suli a little upset.jpg


That's also one hell of a war weariness. In only one turn :eek::eek:
 
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Continuing (attachments).
Spoiler :
For some dumb reason, Cyrus is terribly upset that we have nuked his very good friend -- who he is at war with himself. Your other good friend, Brennus, also nuked your lad Suleiman, six times, but whatever.

I've never seen war anger this high before, not even close. Holy **** :lol: I'm running a 80%:culture: slider just trying to keep up.
NC 289 T284 12 war anger.jpg


Egypt, and in particular the Ottoman empire, looks pretty messed up now. Suleiman's score has also taken a slight dip.
NC 289 T284 nuclear wasteland.jpg


As hinted at before, I could not nuke Suli's stack in Egypt (unless I had declared on Egypt too), nor one tile away. Suppose nukes have a 3x3 tile impact. However, I was able to NE of Konya, near the aluminium, which also struck the big stack he had inside that city. Thought maybe Hatty would snipe the city, but Suleiman managed to reinforce it I see.

With that, the peace-loving UN secretary general wins a diplomatic victory :gandhi:
NC 289 T285 UN win.jpg


Suleiman's massive military power, at over 7 million (!) barely took a dip during the hectic hostilities with Egypt. Seems to have taken a 'correction' by our involvement, tho:
NC 289 T285 power graph.jpg


Same with our own power for that matter, but that's surely due to 22 nukes no longer existing. Stored away somewhere I reckon.

Losses during our wars were pretty high as well, particularly in tanks and cannons. I lost a lot of units in the two wars against Tokugawa and Brennus. The first Japanese war was a total failure, while Brennus was really hard to overcome.
NC 289 T285 unit losses.jpg


Units killed are somewhat inflated by the nukes, mainly in mechanised infantry, that I never faced in actual war. Well, apart from in the one city that I sniped (defended by 5-7 of them).
NC 289 T285 unit kills.jpg


This is what the 'battlefield' looks like currently. Not pleasant. Cities lost some pop :shifty::eek:
NC 289 T285 nuclear wasteland.jpg

 

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Spoiler :
Which leaders are better-suited for "tiny, starved for food/happiness and/or poor land" isolation starts? I can only think of the American leaders.
Apart from American ones, maybe Hannibal? CHA makes the lack of :)- resources less painful.


@Kernigh
Spoiler :

Yes, as you've identified, whipping cities to produce more units would have made the war with Brennus more successful.

An alternative is to temporarily befriend Brennus, to reach Astro as soon as possible then attack the most backward AI, like @ Pangaea did.


@Pangaea
Spoiler :

Congrats on your win:clap:! Semi-isolation is challenging, but you've got your first victory at Demi-god :woohoo:

Securing your victory at UN with nukes spiced up the game :nuke:. But the war wearness with ICBM is much higher than Cannons or Cavs attacks. :eek:

Unfortunately Civ 4 has no potato as :food: resource. If BTS added potato to the :food: resources, Suleiman's workers would be able to pick up Fish and Chips, apart from bacon and fried corn. :D
 
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