Nobles' Club 290: Ramesses II of Egypt

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by AcaMetis, Nov 22, 2021.

  1. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Emperor

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    The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

    Our next leader is Ramesses II of Egypt, whom we last played in NC 260; we last played the Egyptians under Hatshepsut in NC 274. The Egyptians start with Agriculture and The Wheel.
    • Traits: Ramesses II is Industrious and Spiritual. Industrious gives a +50% :hammers: bonus to all Wonders (World and National), and gives a +100% :hammers: bonus to Forges. Spiritual allows you to swap state religion/civics without suffering Anarchy, and gives a +100%:hammers: bonus to all Temples.
    • The UB: The Obelisk, a Monument with 2 Priest slots. Getting very early Great Prophets is more for the AI than the player, since the former should be left to the task of founding and spreading religions while the player builds up their empire and bulbs their way through the tech tree. But if you're looking to rush someone who hasn't build a Shrine yet early, or you want literally any Great Person for a Golden Age, or you actually do want a Great Prophet to pull some manner of clever scheme, the Obelisk will allow you to get out the required Great Person that much easier, and earlier.
    • The UU: The War Chariot, a Chariot with 5:strength: and innate immunity to First Strike. A straight upgrade over the basic chariot, particularly against archers, these guys stand a chance at winning fights that regular chariots don't.
    And the start:

    Spoiler map details :
    Inland Sea, Tropical climate, medium sealevel, +1 AI to balance the board.
    Spoiler edits :
    A few strategic resource swaps were done.
    The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 290 Ramesses II Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
    Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
    In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.
    Spoiler what is demigod :
    The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.
    Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :
    You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
    Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

    1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
    2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
    3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
    4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
    5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
    6. Exit the worldbuilder.
    7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
    If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.
    Spoiler huts and events :
    Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
     

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  2. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Emperor

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    Two plains hills you can jump on T0, and not a single reason to do so as far as I can see :drool:. I mean, sure, it'll be a long time before the capitol can use that much food so there's an argument to be made for being more aggressive in sharing it, but I'm not sure if that's worth moving away from SIP in this instance.

    Would any experts like to chime in :)?
     
  3. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Unless you refer to a building that doesn't exist in Civ 4, it's called capital and not capitol.

    War Chariots are great! Haha. Also, that is one hell of a capital woodwise. Shouldn't be a problem to move partly away from that, though it would have been an easier call I suppose if the PHs were on the east side instead. It looks like we are crammed up against the north edge of the map, judging by the snow-covered trees and clean map cutoff. The only warrior move that makes sense is SW, though he probably won't reveal a whole lot there either.

    Although it's not perfect given the food elsewhere, and killing a forest (which we do by SIP anyway), moving onto the PH 2W still looks tempting. Will enable a bit quicker rushing for those who wish to try out that (presumably horse is nearby-ish), or a quicker start on wonders for those who want to get cracking on those. The worker will be out 2 turns quicker than by SIP. And we still have two sources of food in wet corn and hill sheep (let's be nice and still call it a source of food). Who knows... maybe one of those green naked tiles will give us BFC horses? :yumyum:
     
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  4. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Emperor

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    Spellcheck doesn't yell at me if I use the wrong one, so I end up using both interchangeably :mischief:.
     
  5. soundjata

    soundjata Be like water

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    @AcaMetis is right on time as I just completed NC289 :o
     
  6. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    Oh boy, here I go war charioting again…
     
  7. Nick723

    Nick723 Warlord

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    Looks a stellar start!

    Unrelated to the map itself, but if anyone would like to learn more about the leader himself, I recommend the following podcast:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p09tvhv8

    They’ve done quite a few Civ IV leaders, and it’s generally a good fun but informative listen.

    Did you know for example that Ozymandias (as in Shelleys poem and the quote for ‘Construction’ tech) is the Greek name for Rameses?
     
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  8. soundjata

    soundjata Be like water

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    "Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!'

    Work on TGW, Pyramids, War chariots, or build 12 cities ?

    We have good bread and can make the capital a cereal killer!

    Settling in place does not look good to me, too close to the edge of the map hence inefficient fogbusting by capital culture.
    Maybe settle 1S and allow another city 2N?

    Acametis is a good map-maker so Horse and Stone nearby is a given
    Spoiler :
    :groucho:
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021
  9. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Emperor

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    A city right on the edge of the map loses like half it's tiles to the void, though. It's true that 1S would be better for fog busting, but I don't know if I'd put a city right on the edge of the map just for that.
     
  10. soundjata

    soundjata Be like water

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    I quite disagree, A city with 2 food tiles is worthwhile, especially this close to the capital, even if it has few workable tiles (GP farm/whip machine)
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2021
  11. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Do you want to move there and waste a turn though? May as well take a chance on a PH then perhaps?
     
  12. soundjata

    soundjata Be like water

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    wasting a turn moving away from map edge is ok in my book :goodjob:
     
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  13. konata_LS

    konata_LS Warlord

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    Finally got some time to play civ :rockon:. Was busy with real life.

    Judging from the starting screenshot, to settle on the forest PH looks tempting. Sheep and Corn provide enough :food: to the capital. Wheat and the eastern corn can be given to another city - potentially a NE city in the future? OTOH, early :commerce: might be an issue, because the river is short around the starting place, and I haven't seen any gold or silver near the settler :think:.

    Monarch from T0 to T136
    Spoiler :

    Settings as below, no tribal village:


    Move the warrior to the forest PH then decided to settle there. AH-Mining-BW. Settled the second city near the Horse. Chopped 10+ UUs. :ar15:
    Who cares about PRO. Who cares about AI with Copper. Fear my War chariots :ar15:

    As a result, WK disappeared on T68. :devil:

    Stayed at peace since then, because there is so much land to expand. Got some failgod from MoM. But Mids was built before I could start it :blush:.

    Religious situation looked subtle. Suleiman founded Hindu and Judaism; he converted Zara and Mao. Charlie Buddism. Darius founded Confu. Zara founded Christianity but he didn't convert yet.Since I was sandwiched between Charlie and Sully, I decided to stay at no religion for a while. But some turns later Sully asked me to convert to Judaism and I agreed, since SPI leaders could just say yes then switch back 5 turns later if Charlie became unhappy.

    The diplomacy screen was, eh, how to say... a little weird. Inland Sea is a whole landmass, but until 425AD, Darius and Mao didn't know each other :dubious: . What happened to these AIs? :crazyeye:


    Another weird thing is, I've only met 6 AIs in 425AD, as shown in the screenshot below (5 AIs + dead WK). Is the last AI already dead to the barbs? :confused:


    IND cheap forges were nice, but no one was willing to trade MC to me :sad:


    Darius started plotting around 500AD. I wondered who would be his target :think:. Maybe Sully or Mao (he finally met Mao during T132 and T136)? As Darius was Pleased with Zara and Charlie .


     
  14. konata_LS

    konata_LS Warlord

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    Spoiler :

    The accuracy and high quality of @ AcaMetis 's map creation are always trustworthy.

    The situation has become a little weird in my game: until 500AD I've only met 6 AIs. Sometimes in an Inland sea map (like NC283) I meet the far away AIs in 1AD or 100AD, but it's quite rare to wait until 500AD and still not know all the opponents. I've checked all the AIs' city names and haven't see anything strange. For example Charlie is the AI who has the most cities in my game, and all his cities are named after Holy Roman or captured barb city; he doesn't have some cities called "Tenochtitlan" or "Bibracte".


    Given this weird situation, would you mind opening one of the WB saves and confirming that we have 7 opponents, please? No need to spoil the last AI's name, just confirm that the number of AIs is 7.
    If you confirm that, then it means I need better scouting to find that mysterious AI. Maybe I've already missed some good trade opportunities due to my bad scouting.
     
  15. AcaMetis

    AcaMetis Emperor

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    Spoiler :
    You can actually check this on the victory screen, it'll say how many rivals you have left to murder/vassal for a Conquest victory and how many of said AIs you've not met yet. It is also possible that an AI outright died to early barbs, Inland Sea is brutal when it comes to barbarians, but you would have gotten a message like "The Korean Civilization has been destroyed!" even if you never met the AI in question.

    In this case, though...perhaps invest in some scouting ;).
     
  16. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    T1. Naturally warning about settling decision.
    Spoiler :
    Actually found it really hard to decide about where to settle. SIP is kinda safe, but also too close to the map edge for comfort, and way too much food. Moved the warrior SW, which didn't reveal a whole lot. After more pondering, moved the settler SW too, thinking about settling 1S like mentioned by soundjata, but then moved him onto the naked PH. I then see another PH that is riverside. That one is mighty tempting, but it's hard to tell what tiles are what. Kinda looks like FP, but also sort of looks like plains tiles there or elsewhere. I sometimes struggle with fog gazing between plains and grasslands, because the transition can look similar.

    The warrior first moves SW again, and spots a pig. Very nice, but too far away. Settling on the riverside PH would cancel out the PH advantage on the worker, and the farm will be done in the same turn as SIP. Under doubt, I decide to settle where I am, and not 'waste' another turn moving.
    Spoiler :
    Unfortunately I don't think this was a good decision :sad: Yes, moving to the farm will waste another turn for the worker, but two FPs would have been very nice for a capital that is now kinda food starved. The riverside green tiles west probably swayed me, altho one is jungled currently. But I kinda wish I had dared to go onto the riverside PH. Would have grabbed another desert tile and missed the two western riverside greens, but gained two juicy FPs. Plus whatever is hidden over thataway. I'll try to continue from this position, though, on demigod (with archery for barbs). At least there is a kickass city NE now, with about 9 food sources :lol:

    NC 290 T1 PH settle.jpg

    edit: oh dear, I hope not some nearby AI will grab all that food in about 10 turns :nono:
     
  17. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Continued on Demigod. T67 now.
    Spoiler :
    Starting warrior went counterclockwise and ended up on a hill in the east after a while. Then got surrounded by three lions.
    Spoiler :
    NC 290 T22 lions.jpg

    Thankfully only one went towards him that turn and then attacked, otherwise he would have been done for.

    I settled the second city briefly before researching AH (after first going BW). Fortunately horses happened to be nearby, although in the outer ring.
    Spoiler :
    NC 290 T36 AH.jpg

    Only two AIs had found me early on, presumably the ones next door, and after a while more Mao popped up. They appear to be far away, although Suleiman isn't that far, but WC rushing doesn't seem to be on here, or at least I haven't geared the game towards that. Instead I settled the third city on top of stone (desert quarries take forever). Gonna try for Mids!

    Then the usual barb troubles when trying to hold them off with only warriors. Very lucky here really. Losing that counter would have been bad.
    Spoiler :
    NC 290 T51 close barb fight.jpg

    There were sooooo many archers coming from the west. I doubled up and tried to deal with them, but it really wasn't easy. Originally I intended to only put a chop into the Great Wall for failgold, but then I thought better of it and completed it with another chop or two. The barb archer that was about to farm one of my guys got kicked out and could ruin our FP farm.

    Seems like I forgot to take more pictures after that, but I used four workers to chop like madhatters into Mids. In T67 it has just been erected and we have gone into Representation. The extra happiness gap will be great, especially once we manage to limp to Writing. Wang is already on Alpha here, but I'll have nothing to get it with for a long while. The economy is completely hosed with zero commerce. Now with Mids secure, I'll have to get cottages everywhere feasible. The new city that will claim marble will need the whole river cottaged, and I got half a mind to change the capital over there. Certainly better than Thebes in my game.

    With Great Wall + Mids in the same city I'll have to cross my fingers for a GEngineer. Otherwise I could probably get some mileage out of a GSpy too, and steal some techs. But that's not something I can pull off quickly. For starters I need alpha first.

    Overview in T67, with some city spots I have in mind. Ofc they may be revised, but it's a start, and seems like it may be possible to REX to the west a fair bit -- unless Wang is just outside view and will do so himself soon. The Deity bonuses will start to really kick in now. I'll try to grab the ivory with the next city, hopefully before Suleiman does.
    Spoiler :
    NC 290 T67 map.jpg
     
  18. konata_LS

    konata_LS Warlord

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    @AcaMetis
    Spoiler :

    Oh I didn't know people can see the number of rivals at VC. I also didn't know that the player will get informed if an unknown civilization is destroyed. Thanks for telling me that useful information!:thanx:

    The VC of my T0 autosave does show that there are 7 AIs in this game:


    .. which means I need scout more. A scouting chariot is going across Zara's land. Hopefully that chariot would find the mysterious AI. Maybe that unknown AI has been slowed down by barbs and has very limited land. :think:


    @Fish Man
    Spoiler :

    WC can usually take down 1 or 2 AIs, even they're PRO :high5:.

    IMHO, one of the potential "risks" with WC in Inland sea is the distance or maintenance fee of the captured cities. Unlike Pangaea maps, the neighbours are farther in Inland sea. Some captured cities may be very expensive.


    @Pangaea
    Spoiler :

    Egypt with the Pyramids - you're managing your empire like a real Pharaoh :egypt:. Mids are cool, especially with SPI leaders :goodjob:.

    Agree about that Ivory spot - Ivory is important for early happiness and potentially Elepults if there are some war opportunities in the Classical era. Building missionaries might distract Sully from expansion for a while.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2021
  19. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    @konata_LS
    Spoiler :
    Thanks, yeah it's amusing to build Pyramids as the Egyptians :) Suleiman actually doesn't have Writing yet so we don't have open borders yet, but I'm sure he'll get there soon enough, so then I hope he will send some missionaries my way. Hope I can nab that ivory spot, though, but I also worry he has a settler on the way, or near enough. Deity AIs (or demigod in this example) tend to expand like crazy once they get 3-4 cities.
     
  20. Andriy Fadyeyenko

    Andriy Fadyeyenko Chieftain

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    If a grassland cow is a source of food, then so is a grassland hill sheep ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021

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