Nobles' Club 292: Suleiman of the Ottomans

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Suleiman of the Ottomans, whom we last played in NC 216; we last played the Ottomans under Mehmed II in NC 282. The Ottomans start with Agriculture and The Wheel.

• Traits: Suleiman is Imperialistic and Philosophical. Imperialistic adds +100% to Great General generation and +50% bonus to Settler production (note that the settler bonus doesn't apply to excess directly converted to ). Philosophical gives all cities +100% generation and a +100% bonus to Universities.
  
• The UB: The Hamman, an Aqueduct with +2. Too expensive to make wide use of early game, when is still relatively abundant and (at best) two extra citizens cannot cover for the cost of building a Hamman, but in the late game this is an excellent building to simultaneously fight back against factory/coal plant unhealthiness and Emancipation unhappiness.
  
• The UU: The Janissary, a Musketman with +25% vs. Archery, Melee and Mounted units. Base muskets are generally ignored in favor of units that have either a higher base , or in the case of siege-based warfare, a lower cost to get more bodies on the field. Janissaries are given the same treatment, though they're a pretty solid all-in-one resourceless stack defender package. For reference a Janissary on defence is not as good against Mounted as a Pike (though Janissaries are resourceless and not threatened by Maces/Crossbows, Pikes require Iron and can only defend against Mounted), much better against Melee than a Mace (Melee units tend to get bonuses vs. Melee units, but Janissaries are Gunpowder units, so their bonus applies while the Mace's bonus does not) and mercilessly play a funeral dirge for the concept of offensive Archery units.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Inland Sea, Temperate climate, Medium Sealevel, +1 AI to balance the field.

Spoiler edits :

A few strategic resource swaps were done to give AIs nearby strategic resources, and two AIs were swapped to give you a less volatile neighbour to...work with.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 292 Suleiman Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

Tempting as it is to SIP, I...vaguely recall another NC teaching me that settling against the edge of the world is a bad idea, so in this case I'm actually eyeing the grass hill 2S. There seem to be floodplains in that area, which would be good for early commerce, it should have enough food with the one wet corn (plus floodplains plus anything else that might or might not be hiding in the shadows), and thanks to the lake capital/capitol (I'd swear I'll learn the proper term eventually, but...that'd be a lie ) culture should do a good job fogbusting the initial spawning area. One could also settle the plains tile 2S1W, but given a choice between a hill and no hill I'd rather take the hill. Barbarian paranoia, you see...

What do the experts think ? Is there something obvious I've missed, not for the first time ?

 

[Pangaea]

Hmm, up against the map edge again, huh? Tricky when we don't see a clear good option to SIP. Normally I'd want to move the warrior onto a hill for better view, but due to forests he won't see much by going SW. There is another naked tile, probably tundra, by the map edge, but meh. So I would probably move him SE, to see if there is anything of value in the naked tile SE of corn. The best of two bad options I suppose.

Don't particularly want to SIP here, being up against the map edge like that, especially if taking on Deity. I got mauled BADLY last time, but yeah.... Maybe move the warrior SE, see if that changes the thinking any, as it could be a possibility to settle SE. Otherwise move to the hill @AcaMetis mentioned, and hope for a view of some good stuff. Settling there wouldn't be terrible, but it does feel awkward to move AWAY from food.

Settling SE of that river corn is an option too. Would keep the naked tile NE within BFC, and not 'waste' a green hill. Could be that is on the 'wrong' side of the river though, if it curls westwards. Hard to tell from just looking at a picture.

Starts like this is hard, because you can get boned hard if there is desert and no resources down there -- yet you really want to move away from SIP, at least on Deity. Capital culture expansion is important for fogbusting and thus prevent barb spawns. And I suppose barbs can get nasty on this map script (I don't often play it, usually I prefer Fractal for the unpredictability it offers).

 

[Fippy]

There are times when moving into a more central posi makes sense, but here chances of a slow start are too high if you move away from wet corn #2.
For 2 steps further south? No way imo

 

[chinemol]

south of the forested hill there's what appears to be a flood plain. given his traits may be possible to settle south-ish, go pottery ->BW to chop settlers with the imperialistic bonus

 

[sampsa]

One thing against moving is also the location of those -resources. If you don't claim them now, it's a bit clunky to claim them later. I think it's a pretty clear SIP. Turn the hill 2S into a plains hill and I'd settle on it. Moving away from food, losing a turn and killing a forest for no immediate gains isn't something I'd recommend.

With good starting techs, lots of forest and IMP I also think mining-BW is rather obvious.

 

[sampsa]

T50 deity

Spoiler :

SIP, mining-BW-myst-medi-ph-(pot). Not sure how great play oracle is here on deity (especially with an oracler like Isabella around), but seemed worth a shot as map seems good for an early monarchy. Two axes for safety (moved them too far though), two workers chopping. 2nd and 3rd cities are nice since zero worker turn drain. I think fp >> desert gold plus immediate +1 is useful for capital. Oracle in 5T without whip/chop.

 

[sampsa]

T95

Spoiler :

3-pop whipped oracle T51, got monarchy. Even got some trade value from it: alpha, math and IW. Settled prophet, which is OK I guess with a PHI leader. Spread Freddy's religion and gifted a city to Hannibal. 8 cities and might even found more. No iron, but should be a breeze nevertheless. Looking to go music unless someone has aesth in a few turns. I like the way religions are spread out.

 

[Fippy]

Looks like a good & creative play with so much food, Sampsa (Oracle whip)

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

@sampsa

Some silly questions

Spoiler :

1. How much of a setback would it be if you failed to get the Oracle? Would you still be able to win?
2. Why did you build Oracle when you are philosophical? Precisely that is the problem - - cannot avoid great prophet. The UB gives +2 happiness and you can (potentially) trade with everyone on this map. How good is early monarchy happiness in this instance as opposed to just trading it from someone later on?
...
99. How do you explain to newer players why you settled on top of gold?

 

[sampsa]

@sylvanllewelyn

Spoiler :

1. How much of a setback would it be if you failed to get the Oracle? Would you still be able to win?
2. Why did you build Oracle when you are philosophical? Precisely that is the problem - - cannot avoid great prophet. The UB gives +2 happiness and you can (potentially) trade with everyone on this map. How good is early monarchy happiness in this instance as opposed to just trading it from someone later on?
...
99. How do you explain to newer players why you settled on top of gold?

1. It would be very annoying (maybe enough for me to quit ), but still winnable
2. Actually forgot about UB Well, got monarchy probably 30T earlier which might not be such a huge deal, but worth something surely. I don't think the GP is so bad, I mean you get it so early settling is decent. But I agree with your points in general and I close to never try to build oracle on deity.
99. Tile values. I think a floodplain can never be weaker than desert gold (and is already a LOT stronger post-granary, post-monarchy) and by settling on top of gold you gain a bonus on city center. Here the instant +1 happiness was worth a lot, too. It's also about the location of other cities, this way everything just seemed dandy.

 

[Pangaea]

Started on this on Deity, but was only able to play 50-ish turns.

Spoiler :

I took the chance and moved the settler south. PH east, but that one looked wrong. Since I saw gold, I ended up settling in T2, so a slow start. But 6 FPs makes up for the lost food I think. Wish I had gone on the plains west of the hill because I could have settled there in T1, but wanted the good view.

By settling there, it was possible to backfill two cities north, which is what I ended up having to do. Don't know if I'm doing something particularly wrong in the openings, but I got a lot of barb troubles again. Wonders went very early here, but I've only met Hannibal and Frederick so far, and none of them built the GW, so it's probably not that. Anyway, the gold mine got ruined, cutting our research in half. Thank goodness there was copper in what would have been SIP. Worker for city 2 improved that before the corn, with a little back and forth due to invading barbs. The axes I got out actually didn't kill any of the archers, but it's an insurance policy to have them available.

Now in T53 the situation looks more under control, but I don't know what may be headed our way. 7 barbs killed so far, 3 of them archers (plus a lion).

Only last turn was I able to settle the third city, which also went north. There is a barb city east, and one to the south too, tho I have only seen the outlines of it so far. The axe that city 2 is producing will go south of the capital and check out stuff, as the warriors may die soon-ish. Then that city will make another worker. I have Writing and OB, maybe too early, and am now backfilling AH. Though maybe I could do without it for a while, and got some beakers into Math and alpha, but since I had to settle both cities north, I had to backfill it I thought.

Not a stellar start, but not disaster either. Once the capital worker is done with the cottage, it can improve the gold again. Then maybe another cottage. Or chopping. Good chance I won't play any more due to leaving and being gone for 2 weeks, but at least I played the opening.

 

[Pangaea]

Nice job with the Oracle, @sampsa. It went earlier in my game, T46, so wouldn't have stood a chance had I tried. But then I kinda had my hands full with... things

 

[drewisfat]

Trolling is supposed to be against the forum rules but here we go with @sampsa going for Oracle while settling on gold.
This gaslighting behavior from him is out of control and only continues to get worse. Look, he's not even improving the SECOND gold mine. He's probably upset the gold is too close to the other gold and he can't settle on both of them. It's not even about prioritizing the fps. 2 workers are there improving non-river grasslands??? It's ridiculous. You'd assume he was FIN or at least IND. Nope. I can't.

 

[sampsa]

@drewisfat Haven't played for a while, enter civfanatics, download latest NC, make some silly plays, post the game, receive molestery from drewisfat. At least Fippy was supportive towards my nonsense.

In seriousness, I think the oracle play is pretty bad for reasons already outlined. I must revert to my usual one-trick-poniness of skipping every early wonder except Mids! In defence of my workers, I think the 2nd gold was just claimed and the city still needs to whip a library, so gold not that urgent anyway. On the gold settlement - I admit there is a bit of a troll in me which sealed the choice to settle there. Switch the desert hill (the one 1W of gold) with desert hill gold and I won't settle on gold. So it's not only about tiles, also about location.

 

[sampsa]

@Pangaea

Spoiler :

Don't know if I'm doing something particularly wrong in the openings

Here I think it was also just bad luck, moving away from capital copper. But in general you don't seem to value speed very highly in your openings, thus you end up in a lot of spots where you are behind in and then barbs cause more concern. With speed I mean things like moving for 2T without gaining extra city center and overall valuing long-term aspects over short-term ones. You seem to have a strong dislike for early chopping. Here I think Ankara is a mistake, it's a decent city, sure, but there are a lot of stronger locations that are contested. So I think instead of that settler, build a worker to first chop an axe or two for safety and scouting, then chop settlers to claim strong spots. Make Ankara your 7th/8th city.

 

[Fippy]

No really i usually "defend" gold tiles, but here i see nothing wrong with settling on it
It's replaced by another one, and after 10t (hamlet reached) floodplain cottages are just 4 less.
Desert gold isn't all that impressive.

PHI Priest points are a problem, especially in super cities which would make great clean pools.
I just thought putting all those whip into something bigger is creative and something different.
So Oracle yay, priests meh.

 

[sampsa]

T115

Spoiler :

Last 20T been mostly just growing cities. Man I need a lot of worker turns, have 13 workers now for 8 cities and still working some unimproved tiles. Got 2nd prophet at ~50% odds, serves me right for building the stupid oracle. Joao was able to tech music anyway, so instead of music went CoL-philo-CS. Ready to start the GA at CS in two turns, as I got 3 big cities. I think I could've used some more farms instead of cottages... Can't get marble, but at least stealing the pigs from Freddy soon.

Save attached (BUFFY).

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler Diety T50 :

There's so much food on this map and and so many forests in the capital that I went worker --> grow to (4?) --> worker --> Settler in a bid to guarantee Pottery before chopping an endless stream of Settlers. Overflow was used to 1-turn Axes to support the aggressive expansion. Front settled the south to commit to grab the double food site (monument will help me reclaim the pig) and then backwards for floodplains and gold for commerce.

Not sure if lucky or unlucky with the southern barbarian city spawn near marble - on one hand, it is a free city capture eventually when the AI comes to hit it. On the other hand, no fail gold options to support expansion early. However, the barbarian city to the east is definitely a big plus for this map.

Spoiler Diety T120 :

Overall feeling about the map - this many river tiles + imperialistic trait lead to unchecked expansion on par with Diety AI (9 cities, 7 with at least 1 6-food tile option). I did not complete Aesthetics + Alphabet trade until 675 BC, but teched Civil Service by 150 BC. At 1 AD, we are quite ready to start a golden age and cash in on the Philosophical trait.

5 Turns later, the option to take Liberalism is available at 125 AD.

Based on the tech window, it looks like there might be time to hold on to liberalism for something expensive. However, Hannibal is at war with Frederick, and I'm thinking about switching to Nationalism at the end of this golden age and going for a possibly suspect Janissary + catapult war.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Questions for @CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

1. Everyone has the same religion. Who controls the apostolic palace? Is it going to influence who you attack?

2. [Talking to myself] From screenshot, you don't have iron. What unit options are available? Suppose, with drafting and whipping, you get 2 maceman and 2 catapults from each of 8 cities, that's 16 maceman and 16 catapults. How many cities can you capture with that force?