Nobles' Club 292: Suleiman of the Ottomans

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Questions for @CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

1. Everyone has the same religion. Who controls the apostolic palace? Is it going to influence who you attack?

2. [Talking to myself] From screenshot, you don't have iron. What unit options are available? Suppose, with drafting and whipping, you get 2 maceman and 2 catapults from each of 8 cities, that's 16 maceman and 16 catapults. How many cities can you capture with that force?

@sylvanllewelyn

Spoiler :

1. It's unfortunate that everyone is the same religion. Spain controls the Apostolic palace. Right now, there's a 2v1 war (Hannibal, Stalin v.s. Frederick). I don't understand why it's happening to be honest. Although Frederick is the most advanced out of the 3, I think I try to pile in on that attack since it's my best chance of obtaining iron for future wars.

2. Janissaries! 9 cities should be sufficient to draft enough to take 3/5 Frederick's cities and force a capitulation. I hope the Apostolic palace vote doesn't come at an inopportune time...

 

[konata_LS]

Judging from the start screenshot, moving towards the centre of the map might be tempting. Mining-BW seems good. But AH is not a bad choice, as it unclocks the sheep and if there is Horse nearby, we might build the second city near the horse.

Both the leader and the starting place look fun But currently busy with other things so have to save this map for later. Maybe I'll play this when I have time.

 

[drewisfat]

I caught the sampsa bug and settled on the riverside corn.

 

[sampsa]

I caught the sampsa bug and settled on the riverside corn.

Not sure if trolling or just stupid.

 

[sampsa]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Well played. You are slightly ahead of me and I especially envy getting the barb city with marble. Any particular reason not to go cuirs though? I know it's boring, but should be the fastest path to victory.

 

[soundjata]

I mean settling on (desert) gold is just a one turn improvement, instead of spending 8 worker turns....
More importantly, its gives the tile permanent pillaging and sabotaging immunity.
Pretty strong if you ask me

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Well played. You are slightly ahead of me and I especially envy getting the barb city with marble. Any particular reason not to go cuirs though? I know it's boring, but should be the fastest path to victory.

Spoiler :

I've been somewhat leery of the "trade for iron" based curaissier play. It requires:

1. pre-building horse archers and/or elephants
2. get an extra great merchant or two - (definitely easier with philosophical!)
3. a small window of upgrade - because the cost of iron is exorbitant and usually terminated by smashing a resource to cancel the trade.
4. Possibly building a round of stables.

Maybe the math doesn't checks out, but I'd rather draft ~20-30 janissaries with the UU bonus and acquire iron in war. Happy to be proven wrong though.

 

[Implo]

Hi,
Finale Christmas! Happy holidays everyone!

Diety NH

Spoiler T0 -T 83 :

So much food in cap with a nice locking river we can settle! I choose SiP and og Mining -> BW and 2 pop whip settlers. Then we get rewarded with copper in cap.

I end up with some nice micro optimisme growth/production and 2 pop whip a settler into almost finishing an axe.

Edrine was settled to get the gold and share the North corn in cap. A great 2nd city!

With a early gold mine secured I go into greed mode and whip/chop settlers and workers like no tomorrow. In combination with Fredrick being a little late with his settlers. And some lucky barb spawns I ended up with 7 cities @ turn 72. Not bad. Lost the pig to hannibal tho.. 1 turn to late :/

Managed to trade for stone around turn 78.. so the thinking was.. I want a hammam in cap anyways for the happiness and health later.. what if i then just delegate some workerturns and put some overflow into The hanging gardens.. if I’m lucky.
Then 3-4 effective turns later actually I managed to finish it! Amazing!

Spoiler side note: :

It is actually my first THG finish with Suleiman.. it is something that happens from time to time. I guess it’s the starting techs combined with IMP. That enables a window for such a luxury!
7 free pop = 30 x 7 = 210 hammers for a 150-hammer (+100 in Hammam but I wanted to build that anyways) + i get a GE point and I’m PHI!

Spoiler Side note 2 :

And we don’t give that particular wonder away to the rapid expanding AI. Which on deity actually can give them a power spike.

I like the start to this game! What next..?

Turn 83 - 106: Nobles' Club 292: Suleiman of the Ottomans
Turn 107 - 122: Nobles' Club 292: Suleiman of the Ottomans
Turn 123 - 134: Nobles' Club 292: Suleiman of the Ottomans
Turn 134 - 150: Nobles' Club 292: Suleiman of the Ottomans
Turn 150 - 166: Nobles' Club 292: Suleiman of the Ottomans
Turn 166-Finish: Nobles' Club 292: Suleiman of the Ottomans

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

@Implo

Spoiler :

I like your spot for Edirne much better than mine, in retrospect. My "Ankara" claimed double food, so I moved 1 down to fill in for double gold. However, I think having the ability to use the capital's wet corn to grow faster into the gold resource (and grow cottages for the capital) would've probably moved my medieval age tech objectives up by at least 2-3 turns.

 

[NothingBesideRemains]

Happy to see @Lain is doing well and is back at it!

 

[Implo]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler comment :

I was thinking the same to secure the golds in one city..Then saw Fredric prioritized his 3rd "away from me" So figured i had time to get my 3rd settler out.

I also had a plan to use Edirne to 2-pop whip 4th settler to claim wet corn/marble spot. The double gold and the need to farm FPL is a bit slow to my liking. That would probably delay the 4th settler by 8-9 turns if not more. I would probably just whip a worker actually. Then the 4th settler would have to travel from cap and thats 1 turn slower settle.

The early gold was for just a added bonus for happiness and later support the commerce.

Spoiler T83 - T106 :

Key events:

• Picked up 2 barb cities and settled my last city. I now have 10 cities
• Got a lvl 4 unit for Heroic epic!
• Cottaging everywhere! This is going to be a expensive setup
• Missed The Great Libary to Isabell.
• Got the artist from music
• Joao II attacked giggels and giggels dragged in Hannibal on Joao II
• Bulbed philo with my 2nd scientist. ( 1st acadamy)
• Finished byro as number 3 @ Turn 106 (225 BC) which I think is pretty good

Random overview picture

I’m preparing to do a early golden age and so all my civic switches and religious switches. Focusing growth
Will see how many GS, GM I can get. Want edu bulb for maybe guys for a second Golden age with finishing of TAJ (for the added goldenage turn).

Then Lib curri and go on the offence. Just have to find a way to get Iron.. hm…

Tech situation:

This techlead will hopefully give me MC, machinery, Feuda. Then maybe construction and Engineering (would consider giving away philo for that) if I’m lucky.
I’m usually pretty liberal with my trades and often feel the AI's close in on the gap.. so I will try to be a bit more patient this time to not advance the AI.

In this current setup what techs do you value any techs if any?

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler T115 (Redo) :

After reading other people's play-throughs, I wanted to see the difference if I made the following changes in my game while keeping the rest the same as possible:

1. Settle one up on Edirne to share the riverside corn - like @Implo
2. Prepare 9 hammers at size 2 for a 3 pop settler whip at size 6. Shoutout @krikav!
3. Skip mysticism before writing (didn't really need monuments)
4. Grab Literature on the way to Code of Laws (via Polytheism).

Result: Acquired the Great Library, National Epic, and Taoism. Shaved 6 turns off Liberalism --> Nationalism target.

 

[Implo]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler Comment :

You saved 6 hole turns! thats 5 % faster! In any sport that would be sensational improvement! Thanks for showing the effect

Spoiler T107 – T122 :

The tradefest went ok I guess. I still have monopoly on Philo and paper. Hoping to grab Engineering and Theocrazy (will need it for 2xp, units.. planing to skip stables)

Ended up giving my cap Tao since that religion got founded in my NE city. So my 2 main GP farms (CAP and Bursa) is in my religion in the early golden age.



Everyone just fights so that’s amazing. With no influencing from my part in this beautiful hatefest!

Combination of different leaders and amazing spread of religion. The AP religion is Confu with a fighting Joao II as leader. Joao actually dragged a fighting agustus in on another war with the votes

Planning to finish some infrastructure (mostly barracks and some forges) and missionary spread for 2+exp.

Will start building HA’s (prefer elephants if I can trade for it!) and pick up Theocracy so I can get double promotion without stables.

Will get the last needed GP from Bursa and then I will go into my TAJ infused Golden age for 17 beautiful turns of golden age! The plan is to grab 2-3 GM’s and prepare for some curri upgrades.

Overview turn 122

In retrospect.. 12 workers for 10 cities is not enough! Also.. complaining about workers while running cultur and uninproved plain tiles! (the excuse is that I'm waiting to use pop for GPP)

Spoiler DOH! :

Just realized!... We dont have iron!!!
Will probably have to do some adjustments!

 

[sampsa]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Why no music? Even if you don't go cuirs, I'd be tempted to win it after going aesth-lit. Probably no real need to win lib 1AD, though I admit it's cool.

 

[Implo]

Spoiler T123 - T134 :

Change of plans! I think getting iron is going to be a bit more of a ordeal than what I like. I also don’t think the 17 turn golden age maximizes the potential when you suddenly want to whip HA’s 10 turns into it.
So instead! I’ll use the golden age to grab rifling + 5 exp trebs and take out either Hannibal or Fredrick. I’m Planning to draft rifles and whip trebs.

This will also convert my food to production more efficient (I guess).
Optional is to grab the Globe somewhere.

The 5 exp trebs can be nicly upgraded into cannons when I eventually grab iron. ANd when i eventually get MT i get cavalry!

This army will be a pretty ridiculous doomstack with cavalry rifles + cannons. And can probably take out 2-3 additional Ais if not all.

I will also have the Heroic and possible a Globe city up for massive whip/drafting. The production is going to be overwhelming!

The tech path:

The X is techs I hope to trade for. Might squeeze in economics early if I think I have a chance for the GM.

Turn 127

I have my second Golden Age great people ready .I can finish TAJ whenever I want. Currently I’m just waiting for the optimal time while growing cities and finishing up Edu. I think I will get my universities and start the OX (just grabbed stone from giggels turn 125) in cap before I start the golden age. Also planning to chop 2x forest into ox.
(I only used one GS to bulb edu). Planning to use another to bulb PP) Since I get roughly 500-600 extra beakers from only 1 bulbing each tech.
I will try to maximize the Great people production I want to run cast + philo for as long as possible.. Ideally I lib constitution before I start the Golden age aswell but that’s optional.

And unfortunately 2 of the 3 wars ended recently.. only august and Hannibal left!

Traded for engineering and theo. Hoping the techpace stays as low.

I take another break to optimize before golden age!

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Why no music? Even if you don't go cuirs, I'd be tempted to win it after going aesth-lit. Probably no real need to win lib 1AD, though I admit it's cool.

@sampsa

Spoiler :

About obtaining Music - got wrecked by Isabella:

550 BC: You have discovered Literature!
450 BC: A Great Artist has been born in a faraway land...

About liberalism - you're right, even without iron, grabbing Steel would probably be the best tech play here. I actually saved the game right before hitting the bulb button. However, I said I was going to try a Janissary war, so I'll commit to it.

@Implo

Spoiler :

Using liberalism on Constitution might not be that great - although its nice to switch into Representation with 10 cities and plenty of food, the payback period on tech is too late to help significantly with whichever breakout war you choose. In your game, the AI seems to be pretty far up the guilds/banking tree. Perhaps you could use liberalism for Rifling?

 

[sampsa]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

450 BC: A Great Artist has been born in a faraway land...

Damn, that's early.

I also replayed a bit

Spoiler :

and I do agree 2nd city 1NE of gold is best to share the corn. Sharing capital food is pretty cumbersome without this city. Mining-BW-AH-pottery works very well with this location.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler T115-T148 :

T120 - Gunpowder comes online and it's not a moment too soon. Stalin and Frederick decide to pick on Hannibal, who bribes Gilgamesh to come into the fight. Never mind the fact that Stalin vs. Hannibal and Gilgamesh vs. Frederick are two fights featuring opponents on opposite sides of the world.

9 Turns later, I have 21 Janissaries but only 7 Trebuchets rallied near Germany. Hannibal jumps the gun and loses half his army without inflicting any damage. Dammit Hannibal, you didn't bring and siege. I don't have much siege either, but it's time to go. I'm going to hit any non hill city with fewer than 6 defensive units without bombarding.

A scientist bulbs Printing Press, while the Golden age via Taj Mahal signals the turn point for transition from Nationhood back to Bureaucracy/Slavery. Even with theatres, I estimate at minimum ~T140-160 as a non-draft era due to excess unhappiness.

Gilgamesh votes via Apostolic Palace to launch a holy war v.s. Germany, but personally signs a peace deal 4 turns after (?????). The AI continues to fail in building siege-craft, which is both a blessing (they won't easily take cities on their own) but also a curse (free promos for Frederick if I'm not able to attack the same city on the same turn). By T148, Hamburg falls, signalling the end of mainland Germany. The final German city of Frankfurt is absurdly tucked behind Roman borders.

Overall costs of war are not too high - 5 Janissaries and 8 Trebs. Still Have 31/13 left. I complete the heroic epic and Oxford University in the background.

Current tech situation suggests I could continue pushing south into Rome with the units, which will be reinforced with cannons just around the corner in 5 turns.

The rest of the world is still at war with Germany, so I think I'm going to not risk capitulation and instead take Guilds + Optics (if possible) in the peace treaty. I'm going to assume Frederick is dead - hopefully this guess doesn't come back to bite me.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

In retrospect.. 12 workers for 10 cities is not enough!

I find N+1 workers (N=number of cities) to be enough in single player, if you maintain 1 more worker than number of cities as you go. At the turn of the 1st century, my workers are usually building marginal improvements, like a massive irrigation project, or edge case roads.

Spoiler :

Change of plans! I think getting iron is going to be a bit more of a ordeal than what I like. I also don’t think the 17 turn golden age maximizes the potential when you suddenly want to whip HA’s 10 turns into it.
So instead! I’ll use the golden age to grab rifling + 5 exp trebs and take out either Hannibal or Fredrick. I’m Planning to draft rifles and whip trebs.

Spoiler :

Shameless plug for the Janissary - how much time are you willing to trade off to obtain a 14-strength unit when you can get a functionally 11-strength unit earlier?

 

[Implo]

Spoiler Turn 134-150 :

Joao II demanded 440 gold… I reluctantly gave in. I don’t want be target for a bogus war just before I launch the “I-would-hate-to-live-next-guy-fest”.

Ready to kick things off! Squeezing out lib 1 turn earlier with some research production.
500 beakers roughly 60 from production. And negative 145 gold. Gives a 350 beaker output. Going to be fun to see how much Oxford, REP and Golden age will give

T135 While we develop into a more liberal and tolerant society! The rest of the religious world start a crusade against Hannibal!

August’s doomstack is also closing in on Hannibal.. so nice when they soften each other up!

Golden age in and civic switches!

Switch into rep GM and build wealth in most cities and finishing barracks, wonders.

570 beaker output! My empire are running a total of 9 GM

T136 – fixed some GPP now 691 RAW output (beaker + gold @ 100 % research (-15)).

Empire is running 12 GM, 2 GS, and 3 GA (trying to steal a Pig tile from Hannibal)

T137 – PP is in and I adjust some GP prod: 778 beakers!!

T140 secured drama (1 turn), Guilds (1 turn with beaker overflow), banking.

Switched into mercantile thinking it would be a improvement.

But no.. anyways the extra gpp make up for it! The eco GM is still up for grabs so ill detour.
I am Still in good time for rifling and the civic switching! Augustus and Hannibal made peace.. just as augustus stack arrived!

T143

The beakers are stabelizing.. got Eco GM Nor

T146 not much going on! Decide to start starving down a couple cities which might be able to grab a GM either now or eventually. Got 2 GM, 2 artist (5 % chance and 10 % chance..) 6 turns left of Golden Age. Going for nationalism (drafting rifles).
T148 I only get 1500 from Trade mission.. maybe because of mercentalism.. will switch into free market soon but.. I'm thinking saving a GM for another Goldenage later. 4 turns left of GA and 4 turns until rifling! Starting to finish some trebs.. just because I want to be ready as soon as I can.. thinking fredric is target.. He has iron and elephants (so I can upgrade into some cavalry with my gold)
T149 Fredric makes peace with Hannibal.. that sort of works for me!
T150 2 turns left of Golden Age.. giggles attacks Joao II!! And these guys are still tied up in war..

Joao is The AP guy.. and 1 turn until next election.. which joao will win.. and possible start a global war in 3 turns! Or global peace :/
Hopefully joao won't feel to threatened by giggles in 3 turns. Joao has been at war with Hannibal for 30 turns.. so he should have a army ready to defend/attack giggles.

I don’t have confu in any of my cities.. so I can’t deny or influence the votes. Fun to see how religion had such a huge impact in this game. Isabelle, Hannibal and Gilgamesh is all “heathens”.. that’s nice
Anyway.. 2 turns left of Golden Age.. I'm going to take a break and optimize some whips.. before I do another big civic switch..

Got a dirty dirty tech lead!

The next great guy is another GM.. so hopefully the 2 next ones is something else.. starting to like the idea of grabbing another goldenage after I have taken out as many as possible with my redicolus superior army.. some day I might even be able to trade for MT!!

I’m going to take a break before I use last turns to optimalize some Great people and whips etc.