Nobles' Club 302: Louis XIV of France

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler :

Granaries in all 4 cities + 4 racks + 3 stables is what you built prior to the rush it seems.
How about Libraries ? Did you skip Writing before researching HBR ?

Intuitively I would skip granaries (can't grow, won't grow...) in favor of a few libraries. Use scientists instead of cottages for research, use mines (and chop) instead of whipping for production.

Might you elaborate on your buildup strategy?

Spoiler :

I skipped writing in favor of HBR first because I was pissed at Alexander from my previous try. Normally with ivory, I prefer 4-5 cities, with writing before HBR to open the option to bulb math.

Granaries actually come just in time. Most cities are whipping stables or barracks into horse archers as you tech archery after HBR.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Wouldn't someone recommend settling on a hill and gathering a few archers there in case of a violent neighbour ?

It's all fun and games until you realize you are the violent neighbor.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Other options ?

Soundjata of the Loulou Empire,
I agree with Konata

Spoiler :

and would be very tempted with horse/rice/cow ; this is your "safe option". This is an interesting map with many different settling patterns and nobody making the same choices

I've spent some time looking at your screenshot and I am unsure what you did.
Did you go Archery before AH and have just now gotten AH ?
Also, workers. Have you just produced your 2nd or do you have 2 stacked on your cow tile ? (In which case, do you have just produced your 3rd ?)
Sooo.... did you go worker, then settler at size 3, to settle the cows for which you didn't have the tech ?
Meanwhile, did you camp that ivory but neglected to road the single tile to connect your two cities ? How are there no roads on your map if you settled Orleans without even knowledge of AH ? Or a farmed floodplains, idk

Much questions Many confusion Most Undecidedness


Also, you ask about a hill, that hill, you know, which is a fair question (maybe even a brilliant question) but your archer appears to be on Sentry. How are you gonna find the hill if you don't move him ?

More worker turns. I like this (T30) :

Spoiler :

Now, with double chop, this is a 5 turns settler (12Hx5t = 60H) + (2x20H = 40H) = 100H. Convenient.
(I've replayed my opener, hoping to not die by t52. Not sure where I plant my second city. Whatever. I kinda wanna burn a floodplains.)
This is having Hunting, Slavery and going for the hill city at some point (otherwise, Hunting, I would not know), maybe 3rd or 4th city.

Spoiler :

Fun fact : the second corn was improved after the first forest was chopped, so as to speed up the second worker.

It's all fun and games until you realize you are the violent neighbor.

Cutthroat strategies tend to have the most success

 

[soundjata]

Soundjata of the Loulou Empire,
I agree with Konata

Spoiler :

and would be very tempted with horse/rice/cow ; this is your "safe option". This is an interesting map with many different settling patterns and nobody making the same choices
I'm pretty much decided on city 3, 3W of Paris and city 4 where warrior is.
Horse rice cow does not have forests or commerce and Alex should settle the area for me like he did for @CarpoolKaraoke
Edit maybe on the rice could be a fair option in the perspective of 5 cities.

I've spent some time looking at your screenshot and I am unsure what you did.
Did you go Archery before AH and have just now gotten AH ?
Yes, I was feeling I had to have an archer on a desert hill as the most critical priority. I think he got chopped

Also, workers. Have you just produced your 2nd or do you have 2 stacked on your cow tile ? (In which case, do you have just produced your 3rd ?)
I have just 2 workers and they're on the cow yes. They previously double chopped a settler who's chilling in Paris. Orleans just completed a warrior.

Sooo.... did you go worker, then settler at size 3, to settle the cows for which you didn't have the tech ?
Yes share corn. No whip so far although I'm in slavery.

Meanwhile, did you camp that ivory but neglected to road the single tile to connect your two cities ? How are there no roads on your map if you settled Orleans without even knowledge of AH ? Or a farmed floodplains, idk
No camp no road yet. Roads are my next priority so I can get to writing asap.
Think I'll forgo Pottery and focus on Growth, Libraries and Prechop. (if Alex allows).
In fact I did a lot of calculation not factoring elephants happiness

Much questions Many confusion Most Undecidedness


Also, you ask about a hill, that hill, you know, which is a fair question (maybe even a brilliant question) but your archer appears to be on Sentry.
He's just waiting for a proper decision.
There are a couple of unfogbusted tiles in the NE and a boudiscout near the cow I think.
Would it be good to have a barb city spawn somewhere on the coast?

How are you gonna find the hill if you don't move him ?
I was thinking about SettlingOnDesertGold to put cultural pressure on Alex but :
- was waiting for @sampsa to suggest it
- not sure if it's a sane strategy ; TGW isn't available.

Also while we speak about hills, here is one:

Spoiler :

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Le Cimetierre, alright,

Spoiler :

I did not anticipate that settler over a worker. I now understand your reservations over the stone spot.
In my first run through, I settled my second city on the stone
Ca va faire un sacré boucan
Having a couple of workers gives options. I really want my workers first, unless I'm claiming 6 yield tiles.
Sentenza
Especially if you have Bronze Working. It's a question of tile claimed vs forest chopped
Tu vois, le monde se divise en deux catégories
Sad Hill
Hey, Blondin, tu veux que j'te dise ?!
[...]
Wouah, whouah, whouah.

ps: to me, 3W is really bad in that : it doesn't claim anything. You really want to be claiming tiles with those early cities (hence my surprise with Archery before Animal Husbandry).
pps: I'd be willing to settle the capital SW down the corn on the plains hills. That's a different thing, especially for an IND leader. I don't know how it plays out. The settling on wines kills many city spots. Settling on coast kinda preserves those but is also weaker long term.

:kisses:

Sorry I keep editing my posts.
This is almost Enola Gay :

Spoiler :

 

[konata_LS]

Less bad? It's a great thing for sure.

You're right. Maybe things are less terrible than I expected . I should have better managed my workers in the early game .

Wouldn't someone recommend settling on a hill and gathering a few archers there in case of a violent neighbour ?

Do you mean settle the capital on the hill, or settle a border city on a hill as a "choke point" which lets AIs suicide their stacks?
As people said, if the capital is threatened, the situation is already bad. But settling a "choke point" is an interesting idea. In some cases it works well.

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Agree about HBR first. I also put HBR before Writing. But in the middle of teching HBR, my chariot on a hill saw Alex put 2 Phalanxes in his border city . I was afraid that Alex would attack me before my HAs were ready. Under panic, I halted HBR and went for Archery. Maybe I was a little paranoid, but I really didn't want to defend against AGG Phalanxes with only warriors and chariots.

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

2 workers before settler. Interesting

This map on Deity requires some luck, I guess. As Kaitzilla said in @ Pangaea's thread, any DoW before 2000BC is instant loss. If Alex luckily doesn't decide to attack you before 2000BC, or if he distracts himself with some wonders, it would largely increase your chance of surviving the early game.

Your T30 situation looks good . The diplomacy also looks good. It seems both Buddhism and Hindu were founded on the other continent, which means the three unknown AIs won't be in the same religion. If Boudica founds Buddhism, you might have to deal with a far away Hindu lovefest after Optics.

 

[konata_LS]

Have got some spare time for playing a few turns

From T108 to T131:

Spoiler :

Biz founded Confu in 75BC


As result, Biz got attacked in 175 AD . Biz lost a city but he took it back the next turn. Biz had longbows, no WE; Boudica had War elephants but she didn't even have PH or Monotheism. Biz had 7 cities but Boudica 10 cities. Hopefully Biz wouldn't capitulate or lose too much land to Boudica .
(And yes, as shown in the screenshot, in 200AD I'm still researching Fishing )


After Alphabet, all cities building to finish Currency. Got IW from Boudica and Monarchy from Biz. The situation became better after Currency. Happy cap also increased because I got Gem and Dye through trade from Boudica.

French wine, goat cheese, pot-au-feu from the cow, and bouillabaisse from seafood were all good for growing the cities. I think it's time to backfill the former Greek peninsula and to resettle Athens spot.

Somewhat worry about the resources: our continent doesn't have any wheat. How can people make baguette and croissant without wheat flour?

Have to deal with real life for the next few days. Will keep playing the game this weekend or next week.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

This is turn 45 :

Spoiler :

Orleans grew to size 2 and had a chop : this is a 5 turns worker. I don't think I'm whipping it.
Paris grew to 5 and had 2 chops to whip the settler instantly. Now there's the 3rd worker on standby. Could be a 5 turns settler again (I'm not quite sure what to do with the overflow hammers - I have Archery now, could be an Archer ; could also be a worker).
The 2 selected workers can complete the road to city 3 next turn, before it is settled, then help kickstart it extra fast.

So... workers, yeah. A city probably wants an active worker at all times. This is why workers before cities generally leads to a more harmonious development. Cities before workers is for situations when the tiles you claim unlock something special, when the land is in danger of being settled by an AI, or, for situations when a worker at home doesn't gain much. The worker is the snowball unit by excellence.
With Bronze Working and a forest spam, there is much to do with a worker at home. With Pottery, there also is much to do.
If you send your initial worker with the first settler, then you need to consider the cost of leaving your capital unattended. In fact, in that scenario, small tip : it will often be right to leave the first worker by the capital to speed up (chop) the second one, then it will be possible to improve the second city without neglecting the capital.
^ Those are not rules of thumb but rather common situations. Developping a city without a worker is, in fact, much less efficient than developping a city with a worker

ps : I've shamelessly stolen Soundjata's city spot for Orleans. It's much better than my initial settling on stone, researching Sailing and cutting Alex off of any viable option except for war.
pps : Konata makes good points about wonders and religion.

Yes, I believe the hill is a forward hill. Being Creative is cute for cultural defenses and also pressure on tiles.

T50. Lining up for work (and then it probably all goes downhill) :

Spoiler :

Look at this line ! I mean, look at the line
Hill city conveniently preserves a backfill killer spot for city 5. I lost one of my 3 warriors to a barb archer in the north. I need archers RIGHT NOW because settling this city is an act of war.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I should have better managed my workers in the early game

This is probably the source of your economic pitfall, indeed. To your credit, it is very hard to focus simultenaously on the war effort and economic welfare. Hence why many players would rather use a recovery phase. Grow cities, improve tiles, use a great person, you'll be in good shape. Monarchy/Currency are huge steps, now giving you gold and happiness.

T60 :

Spoiler :

But first, T56 :

Spoiler :

No, no, nooo, what are you doing, Alexander ? Sneaking a settler past me like that Me, your friendly neighbour, you, my only friend, whom I hold so close to my heart, borders and libraries This is no way to ruin the plans of someone who so gently, so gracefully, so recently settled in your face
Well, little does he know that Rheims is now 2 turns away from its border pop and his settler party will be expelled from MY borders on T57 End Of Turn

Now, Soundjata, what do I do ? We have religion on the continent. Alexander has.... Aggressive, double-promoted Swordsmen (scary)... The time is turn 60. This is your plan, what's the plan ? For starters, do I open borders with him ? There's a barb city up north that he could target, perhaps.

Spoiler :

^ Casual 7 workers up there. I'm paying 5gpt on units but that will gradually decrease as I improve my population count.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

@BornInCantaloup Dumb but not entirely off-topic question

Spoiler :

How do you even get 4 cities and 7 workers in 60 turns? "Double corn" is not the full answer. Did you do an early worker-steal from Alexander?

 

[danjuno]

Spoiler :

Turn 106: Alex only got out two phalanxes and a spear (which he suicided into my stack along with an archer) before I unhooked his copper. Thanks to that I was able to slip The Pyramids in. Boudica and Bismarck both founded religions, so I'm gonna cool my heels while squeezing out another city or two.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@BornInCantaloup Dumb but not entirely off-topic question

Spoiler :

How do you even get 4 cities and 7 workers in 60 turns? "Double corn" is not the full answer. Did you do an early worker-steal from Alexander?

I don't think it's dumb and I don't mind at all. There is no easy answer, though, no cheat, no trick, no "Deity only" exploit, just solid management. This is why I post those early pictures, to showcase openers.

Spoiler :

First thing : 3 of those workers have been produced in the last 3 turns.
Second thing : Look at my improvements. I'm just now camping the Ivory, I've just now made my first cottage, I've not farmed the rice. In fact, Orleans and Lyons both only have 1 improved tile. Despite the worker overload. Road network : minimalist. All in all, I have 3 farms, 3 pastures and 1 cottage (31 turns of improvement) and some roads (21 turns) <-- you do not need 7 workers to get that.
So : I've been chopping constantly. I've whipped a little.

[There is something to be said about the farmed wine - excellent decision - but I'll leave it for later.]

Let's keep in mind that this is a forest-heavy start. On some maps, forests are a rare commodity.
The game is turn-based. If an action requires a lot of turns to complete, there are probably better options. In fact, long actions should be avoided. Even building a wonder : if you're building a wonder, you should aim to synchronize chops and whips to compress the number of turns spent to a minimum.

There are ways to make maths easy.
A worker chopping forests is : 5H/t. (This is way better than a city working an unimproved tile)
A city working 8H worth of tiles produces 40H in 5 turns. Add in a chop, that's a worker. (Conspicuously, that's a size 2 city working a 6 yield tile and a forest : Orleans, Paris and Lyons fit the bill.)
A city working 12H worth of tiles produces 60H in 5 turns. Add in a double chop, that's a settler. (And that's how I produced my first 2 settlers : double chop + 5 turns)

^ This is why my rice isn't improved, nor is my ivory, nor have I heavily cottaged. Get the workers first, then cottage.
I am now in a position to cottage my riverside between Paris and Orleans with 4 workers (2 in each city). That will be fast.
Getting the workers first make the actions faster (long actions should be avoided, remember ?). Farming the rice takes 5 turns with a single worker. With 2, suddenly, the task seems affordable.


So, this all draws into a lot of aspects :
- an economy of actions (road network)
- maximizing yields (workers chopping)
- synchronizing actions

Example : roading : the best time to complete a road to a city is : the turn before it is settled. Then, there are already workers on standby to improve the first resource.
Completing the road on the hill by Orleans before the city is settled allows to start improving the cows straight away, without wasting a worker turn in movement. The road for Lyons is completed on the turn it is settled but, the next turn, there are 2 workers improving the plains cows.

Example : chopping : If you need 5 turns + X chops to complete an item, you don't need the chop asap. It can be anytime during those 5 turns. This is especially relevant when you're growing to a particular size to start an item. If you want to grow to size 3 then chop, you don't need the chop on the first turn... you can, say, spend 1 turn with your 2 workers to complete that farm on the wine.
[sidenote on the farmed wine :
My first worker spent 1 turn in movement on the wine, waiting on Bronze Working and on its way to the 2nd corn : that's 1 turn farming the wine.
The second worker is chopped and goes towards the corn : that's 1 more turn farming the wine.
The 2nd corn is done and 1 worker has an extra movement : that's 1 turn farming the wine : the workers are now synchronized for their chops.
Now, both workers complete the farm. It's been about 30 turns, so that farm has yielded in the 60 commerce range. I would NOT have spent 5 turns farming if that tile hadn't be a "move over in transit" kind of tile.]

Example : chopping and whipping : If you want to whip a settler from size 5 to 3 with the assistance of a chop (very efficient),
Then you do need 40/100H. You don't need anymore than that if the overflow isn't needed.
Take Paris : it produces 14H/t at size 5. A chop takes 3 turns. If Paris is already size 5, it doesn't need to put 3 turns into the settler, only 2. It can spend the other turn growing, which will quicken the regrowth to size 4. (Different situation if Paris is growing to size 5, then you do not have those 3 turns and you want to synchronize the chop to the turn it reaches size 5 or the turn after.)

Those are all ways to take quick actions. A counterexample would be spending 15 turns growing from size 2 to 6 (stored production) and then a single turn to 3pop whip a settler (not efficient).

I've had late granaries, here, detouring for Hunting/Archery but :
Granaries. There is that phase in the game where you've chopped/whipped your initial workers/settlers and your Empire starts to look like a functional base. Well, that's the moment where most of the economy/maximizing/synchronising should go towards completing the granaries. And, sometimes, yes, that means starting with chopping workers

Maintenance and tech orders are somewhat difficulty related. I won't touch that here. I've done plenty of writing about those in other threads. Getting the workers first is also a way to delay maintenance hits (city upkeep) and hit important tech targets (pottery/writing) without tanking the economy.

I realize this is not an exhaustive answer to your question but I do hope you will find it satisfactory nonetheless.
All maps are different. There can be patterns but decisions come case by case.

 

[soundjata]

Spoiler :

Now, Soundjata, what do I do ? We have religion on the continent. Alexander has.... Aggressive, double-promoted Swordsmen (scary)... The time is turn 60. This is your plan, what's the plan ? For starters, do I open borders with him ? There's a barb city up north that he could target, perhaps.

Spoiler :

There is no plan my dear BIC. Just visions from the past (In case of Monty / Shaka get some hill city and archers.)

I'll try to put here a couple of reference games I was thinking about... But I know you know...

Of course, part of the plan is the "bad guy" is supposed to declare on you. But now in your game he's acting all pacifist

Construction (catapults) look key in using the hill city to your advantage. How soon can you get to that?

(Alex talking to Louis) There are two kinds of people, my friend. Those with loaded guns and those who dig. You dig

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Humph, the plan does not involve researching Aesthetics, then ? smh

 

[soundjata]

A couple of references about hill cities used to counter killer AIs:

- Team Deity Challenge by Duckweed (loads of discussions, many pictures lost) : this is the moment a hill settler is in place.
The reason he is on the hill is because red fist was already shown!

- Evil Cooked map by Gwaja and Elepult execution by Shakabrade here.
No bad luck (no early dow) / few workers, keep the chops!

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Soundjata with the 2009-2013 links
I'll read later on. Few keywords I eyed are : war early before catapults and tons of units are massed. Walls.

What I thought about : Open Borders are a bad idea : they open to scouting and dagger DoW. AIs can only target cities they know about.
If they don't know about other cities, they'll go lemmings on a hilled (and preferably walled) city.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

This is turn 45 :

Spoiler :

So... workers, yeah. A city probably wants an active worker at all times. This is why workers before cities generally leads to a more harmonious development. Cities before workers is for situations when the tiles you claim unlock something special, when the land is in danger of being settled by an AI, or, for situations when a worker at home doesn't gain much. The worker is the snowball unit by excellence.
With Bronze Working and a forest spam, there is much to do with a worker at home. With Pottery, there also is much to do.
If you send your initial worker with the first settler, then you need to consider the cost of leaving your capital unattended. In fact, in that scenario, small tip : it will often be right to leave the first worker by the capital to speed up (chop) the second one, then it will be possible to improve the second city without neglecting the capital.
^ Those are not rules of thumb but rather common situations. Developping a city without a worker is, in fact, much less efficient than developping a city with a worker

Spoiler :

Chopping instead of improving tiles is valuable when the temporary gain in production can be used to improve land usage faster. Without the expansive trait, I think there are narrow scenarios where it's more valuable to go worker --> worker --> Settler over worker --> Settler --> Worker.


Here are some alternatives I've considered from T30 - T45:

Spoiler :

Single worker - could choose to obtain Settler T31

T45 3 cities + 4 super tiles + in time improvements. 3 workers, double warriors for defense.

Option 2: 1 Turn behind on 3 cities + 5 super tiles + in time improvements. 2 workers, double warriors for defense + 1 turn for horse.

 

[chinemol]

Spoiler :

T146 Inmortal: wiped out alex but couldn't beg from bismarck (he'd say no), so I have a big army of catapults + elephants, he has longbows already, boudica is also about to get them, I'll be the first to music so I thought of getting COL and metal casing and building forges and couthouses during the free artist's golden age. the thing is: this army is quite usless right now and a huge drain. should i license only catapults?, some elephants as well? boudica seems not to be an issue since she is pleased, but the germans might just attack. By the way, I have GLH, Stonhenge from alex, but also built GL and about to get parthenon + national epic on it. Thought of going lib-->cuirs, but the game seems will get long. maybe lib astro? not lib at all? suggestions?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

^ To get good advice, you definitely should post a save and invoke Fippy. And maybe add some more screenshots about your situation, too.
If you're looking for a strategic advice, people need to see the whole thing.

@Carpool : This is late at night for me, I'll try to reply tomorrow. I'm not convinced. I hope it doesn't make me a bad person
I do appreciate the comparison

 

[soundjata]

Update T72

Spoiler :

Turns went according to the plan of 5 cities + 5 workers & T77 Math.

Settling pattern, shadowing Alex



Our production went slowly in comparison with BIC explosive approach (chop workers):
the underlying advantage of few units being more research power (less unit cost)

Cities were busy either growing on the corns or slowbuilding workers / settlers.

Use of the whip was scarce, including a 1pop whip of Rice settler by Orleans.

A single chop was performed to free Rheims city tile and accelerate Paris Library.

Archer is on the hill.
We're trading (Sheep + Ivory) for (Gem+Rice) with Boudica. Happy cap

Math is 5 turns away and there are 23 forests inside our borders.

We have 5 workers
(who have been roading > starting rheims > improving a couple of specials > farming the cap à la Duckweed)

Alex is all disoriented atm.
I have a double corn + double horse "soft trap" at his disposal but he did not fall for it.
In any case, happy face diplomacy is getting obsolete doesn't it?