Nobles' Club 302: Louis XIV of France

[soundjata]

Update T100

Spoiler :

Alex is giving in.
A first great general helped upgrading a bunch of dudes. There is another one.
32 HA built, 16 alive
Alex lost ~40 units.
Athens has GLH
I refused to use the whip all along and the situation was borderline when Alex finally went on war (T85)

Now we can sign peace for this

(he also gives construction which we can't see)
Would it be smarter to ask for Thebes? He's offering that as well

 

[sampsa]

@soundjata

Spoiler :

Not sure I understand how you are getting out of the hole (haven't opened save though). I mean yeah 10 cities is cool and all, but no pottery... I guess you are teching construction to get it via peace, but the issue is that you do nothing with that. I think what you'd need is masses of failgold.

 

[soundjata]

@soundjata

Spoiler :

Not sure I understand how you are getting out of the hole (haven't opened save though). I mean yeah 10 cities is cool and all, but no pottery... I guess you are teching construction to get it via peace, but the issue is that you do nothing with that. I think what you'd need is masses of failgold.

Spoiler :

construction for Boudica?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Update T72

So there was a plan, that was the plan !

Spoiler :

I think it looks really good. Skipping Pottery is wild but your Math bulb and the whole timing looks excellent.
Apart from having a reasonable plan when meeting Alex turn 5 (i.e. HBR + bulb),
I also like how you danced around him, leaving him breathing room so he wouldn't plot/DoW. That whole Sad Hill story was a terrible plan you tricked me into

Your fewer workers seem perfectly appropriate. Less workers also mean less time needed for them to pay off. Even workers need time to pay off and, to be fair, I probably overdid it with the wood burning and should have started cottaging earlier on.
I realize my game is on a very different dynamic than yours and certainly less coherent. I'm more geared towards aimlessly teching up, as usual, researching Aesthetics, ignoring the warmonger neighbour and dying a horrible death

I know you've played on to kill Alex but I didn't have a thorough look (mostly : you didn't self-tech Pottery, still wild....).
Do you go on to pre-mine some of those hills, now ? It does seem like whipping might be a problem.

Spoiler :

construction for Boudica?

Another plan, he did it again. What is going on ?!

 

[soundjata]

So there was a plan, that was the plan !

Spoiler :

I think it looks really good. Skipping Pottery is wild but your Math bulb and the whole timing looks excellent.
Apart from having a reasonable plan when meeting Alex turn 5 (i.e. HBR + bulb),
I also like how you danced around him, leaving him breathing room so he wouldn't plot/DoW. That whole Sad Hill story was a terrible plan you tricked me into

Your fewer workers seem perfectly appropriate. Less workers also mean less time needed for them to pay off. Even workers need time to pay off and, to be fair, I probably overdid it with the wood burning and should have started cottaging earlier on.
I realize my game is on a very different dynamic than yours and certainly less coherent. I'm more geared towards aimlessly teching up, as usual, researching Aesthetics, ignoring the warmonger neighbour and dying a horrible death

I know you've played on to kill Alex but I didn't have a thorough look (mostly : you didn't self-tech Pottery, still wild....).
Do you go on to pre-mine some of those hills, now ? It does seem like whipping might be a problem.

Another plan, he did it again. What is going on ?!

Spoiler :

the workers should probably focus on chopping a couple of coastal cities while we wait for the peace treaty to end. Alex might also try to expand...
Then Aesthetics can't be wrong I guess.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

^

Spoiler :

Can you capture Sparta before signing your peace deal ? Then you don't really need to kill him... I'm not sure if waiting 10 turns is worth your while with the maintenance you're paying.
True about the two coastal cities. Thebes is a junker, I wouldn't worry about it.
Very nice to see you let him slip some offensive units in your territory. Then they're not defending cities.

So... tech trading... Bismark will only trade what 70% of the teams know. Boudica trades at 30% (and popped a gold mine ^^). None of them know Alphabet (sheesh...).
Is there a diplo solution for trade ? (Other than more extortion.)
Also trade routes will suffer if/when you DoW Celtia.

Aesthetics next ? Maybe, I don't know about that. The way your game is going, I'd imagine that Feudalism is a major tech target ? So, unlocking the trade for Monarchy probably comes first, right ? Then, Code of Laws is a real option. You're still working on your 2nd GP, after all ( ). Philo bulb and stuff are down the line.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Chopping instead of improving tiles is valuable when the temporary gain in production can be used to improve land usage faster.

Yes, exactly, this is very well put. And you're right that expanding onto 6-yield tiles asap should be a priority and would justify the speedy settlers. Also, props for testing different openers.
I don't agree with your conclusion, however

Spoiler :

So... Going Hunting before AH : there is no 6-yield tile to improve asap. Going AH first : probably a different scenario.
The two workers also help connect city 2, despite not settling by the river. (You do realize I'm a full tech ahead. I doubt that you have Archery on t45, right ? Or am I reading this wrong ? I myself have been tricked into researching Archery to defend a most dubious hill city )

Did you whip both of your settlers 4-->2 ? You do get more production this way (towards warriors) but I do not think it is faster than building the first settler at size 3. It will also lose on some commerce if you have the wine improved. Whipping the second settler is a different story. Whipping the first settler typically delays the second. Could be good, could be bad, depends what the objectives are (tiles, you're absolutely right).

If you meant to underline that I've been too liberal - or even wasteful - with my chopping, well, I do agree with you. I missed the spot right after t45 where I should have started cottaging, at least a few tiles (instead of roading down to Alex' borders). Soundjata also showed very nicely how forests can be stored as a long term resource. There is no sense in burning them if I'm not improving the tiles under.
If it's about overall production, I do believe my t45 is ahead but I'll agree it's close. Close enough that burning resources is relevant

So, riverside, tech timing. I would be much more inclined to go settler first if I were settling by the riverside and/or had knowledge of AH.
My real regret with my opener is that there are so many plains hills on this map and, yet, I found the means to settle all 4 of my first cities without a 2H city tile

 

[soundjata]

Failgold aquired T122

Spoiler :

Meanwhile, Celtia is at War with Germany
9 Generals have been in the game

Cuir?

Spoiler :

 

[BornInCantaloup]

That looks well under control, Soundjata, colour me impressed (with pink crayons).
Seems like your tech target was the very right call.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Yes, exactly, this is very well put. And you're right that expanding onto 6-yield tiles asap should be a priority and would justify the speedy settlers. Also, props for testing different openers.
I don't agree with your conclusion, however

Spoiler :

So... Going Hunting before AH : there is no 6-yield tile to improve asap. Going AH first : probably a different scenario.
The two workers also help connect city 2, despite not settling by the river. (You do realize I'm a full tech ahead. I doubt that you have Archery on t45, right ? Or am I reading this wrong ? I myself have been tricked into researching Archery to defend a most dubious hill city )

Did you whip both of your settlers 4-->2 ? You do get more production this way (towards warriors) but I do not think it is faster than building the first settler at size 3. It will also lose on some commerce if you have the wine improved. Whipping the second settler is a different story. Whipping the first settler typically delays the second. Could be good, could be bad, depends what the objectives are (tiles, you're absolutely right).

If you meant to underline that I've been too liberal - or even wasteful - with my chopping, well, I do agree with you. I missed the spot right after t45 where I should have started cottaging, at least a few tiles (instead of roading down to Alex' borders). Soundjata also showed very nicely how forests can be stored as a long term resource. There is no sense in burning them if I'm not improving the tiles under.
If it's about overall production, I do believe my t45 is ahead but I'll agree it's close. Close enough that burning resources is relevant

So, riverside, tech timing. I would be much more inclined to go settler first if I were settling by the riverside and/or had knowledge of AH.
My real regret with my opener is that there are so many plains hills on this map and, yet, I found the means to settle all 4 of my first cities without a 2H city tile

Spoiler :

It's true, I don't believe in archery - does mean I require more warriors - growth to size 4 naturally produces a second warrior before the settler goes out. No, I alternated between whip and no whip depending on the 2nd city spot. Hunting before AH with whip means settling on ivory and chopping a worker. No whip means AH arrives on time. I think size 3 is fine for commerce too - adding another variation here.


Do you mind posting your save from T45? Easier to compare that way - here are mine.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Update T100

Spoiler :

Alex is giving in.
A first great general helped upgrading a bunch of dudes. There is another one.
32 HA built, 16 alive
Alex lost ~40 units.
Athens has GLH
I refused to use the whip all along and the situation was borderline when Alex finally went on war (T85)

Now we can sign peace for this

(he also gives construction which we can't see)
Would it be smarter to ask for Thebes? He's offering that as well

Spoiler :

This is super nice. I wonder if the AI has some baked in code that says IF (NO_ROUTES) ---> CHANCE_DECLARE_WAR ++, or if that's just a coincidence. The range of war declaration times (T50-T85) changes the outcome of the game hugely.

 

[soundjata]

^ Yes it almost looks like this :
- Do I have a settler and is there a "blue circle" city I can grab ?
IF NO then DOW the closest dude.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I don't believe in archery

Do you mind posting your save from T45?

Yeah, me neither Even Hunting is a close call. Without consideration for Archers/Horse Archers, I'd probably try to delay it until after Writing, when the happiness from Ivory starts to matter (<-- not specific to this map).

Sure thing. Done. Keep in mind I do not claim it cannot be improved At least, I can see that going for the 4th city at this point is what kept me from cottaging early. Paris should place the 5th worker in the queue on T45. Then, cottaging wouldn't be a problem.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Failgold aquired T122

Sooo,

Spoiler :

What do you do with your GP, here, Soundjata ? Bulb or Golden Age ? I'm guessing you can easily self-tech Philo by the time it's online (a 3rd specialist in Paris would be nice), so the Golden Age seems appealing.
Errr... Religion. Do you have a shot at religion ?

Also, what did you do with your army ? Disband ? Is there any sense in upgrading when you probably also want Astronomy ?

I like your jacket.

 

[soundjata]

Sooo,

Spoiler :

What do you do with your GP, here, Soundjata ? Bulb or Golden Age ? I'm guessing you can easily self-tech Philo by the time it's online (a 3rd specialist in Paris would be nice), so the Golden Age seems appealing.
Errr... Religion. Do you have a shot at religion ?

Also, what did you do with your army ? Disband ? Is there any sense in upgrading when you probably also want Astronomy ?

I like your jacket.

Spoiler :

The gold carries us to Civil Service.

At that point we can start a golden age with the Artist :
switch to Bureau and Caste
release 3 great Scientists for Philo > Edu > Lib

GP management needs to be tight (No Religion on this continent!) but I think I found a proper deal (Lib in ~12 turns, Cuir in ~24)

- Paris scientist in 5t
- Orleans in 8t (exactly)
- Lyon in 9 or 10
- Athens will be equiped with NE next turn, release some failgold and jump onto the Merchant train

Spoiler bonus :

The sound of Forges


Decided some extra workers would be handy to upgrade the peninsula (irrigation)

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Yeah, me neither Even Hunting is a close call. Without consideration for Archers/Horse Archers, I'd probably try to delay it until after Writing, when the happiness from Ivory starts to matter (<-- not specific to this map).

Sure thing. Done. Keep in mind I do not claim it cannot be improved At least, I can see that going for the 4th city at this point is what kept me from cottaging early. Paris should place the 5th worker in the queue on T45. Then, cottaging wouldn't be a problem.

Spoiler Comparison: End of Turn 45 - Continued :

TLDR: You're right. That wine tile is more important than I expected, and 15 turns of worker improvements becomes costly. In addition, my further initial settle away at a diagonal is disrespectful to Diety maintenance costs.

If I follow your tech order, improvements, and settle spots, but swap Settler/Worker order, I end up 1 turn ahead on settling and 1 turn behind on hammers.

Interestingly, I end up having more permanent improvements in each scenario, despite almost always having fewer workers. I don't know how to put a price on remaining forests though.


Rough estimates:
1 worker turn = 5 hammers (via 4 turn move and chop).
Whip-able non-granary pop at ~24 food = 30 Hammers
Commerce to Beakers: Archery: 18--> 25. Pottery 18-->24.


Yours:
Production: 2 Warriors, 3 workers, 2 Settlers + 36 Hammers +25 Overflow + 1 turn chop (eval @ 5 hammers) = 30 + 180+ 200 + 66 = 476 Hammers
Food: 3 Pop + 3/24 food ---> 94 Hammers
Permanent worker improvements: +25 Turns
Science: Pottery: 91 Beakers, Archery: + 101 beakers
GNP/MFG/Crop Yield : 31/5/25


Mine 1: Max Production
Production: 2 Warriors, 3 workers, 2 Settlers + 48 Hammers + 2 turn chop = 30 + 180 + 200 + 58 = 468 Hammers
Food: 2 Pop + 15/22 Food --> 79 Hammers
Permanent worker improvements: + 31 Turns
Science: Pottery: 133 Beakers, No Archery
GNP/MFG/Crop Yield: 29/6/26

Rough Conclusion: +7 hammer improvement, -60 science --> ~-43 commerce . G/M/C: -2, +1, +1. Not worth.


Mine 2: Focus Horse
Production: 3 Warriors, 2 workers, 2 Settlers + 12 Hammers + 32 Overflow = 45 + 120 + 200 + 48 = 408 Hammers
Food: 3 Pop, 2/26, 7/24 Food --> 101 Hammers
Permanent worker improvements: +32 Turns
Science: Pottery: 118 Beakers, No Archery
GNP/MFG/Crop Yield: 28/9/24

Rough Conclusion: -25 hammer, -80 science ---> -57 commerce. G/M/C -3, +4, -1. Not worth unless chariots save substantial future losses.

Mine 3: Focus Tech (i.e farm wine)
Production: 2 Warriors, 2 workers, 2 Settlers + 30 Hammers = 30 + 120 + 200 + 30 = 380 Hammers
Food: 3 Pop, 6/24 Food --> 98 Hammers
Permanent worker improvements: +31 Turns
Science: Pottery: 135 Beakers, Writing + 34 Beakers, No archery
GNP/MFG/Crop Yield: 35/7/29

Rough Conclusion: -62 hammer improvement, - 20 science --> ~-15 commerce. G/M/C: +4, +2, +4. Eh.


Mine 4: New (attached) - Match city spot, Match improvements, only differ on Worker/Settler order
Production: 2 Warriors, 2 workers, 2 Settlers + 45 Hammers + 20 Overflow = 30 + 120 + 200 + 65 = 415 Hammers
Food: 3 Pop, 3/24 Food --> 94 Hammers
Permanent worker improvements: +28 Turns
Science: Pottery: 84 Beakers
GNP/MFG/Crop Yield: 35/6/30


Rough Conclusion: -36 hammer, -7 science ---> -5 commerce (same, gold difference). G/M/C +4, +1, +5.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

^ Interesting, Carpool ! This all shows how much can be gained by refining an opener. I'll look more indepth a little later on.
Keep in mind that some investments (settlers/workers) take time to pay off (hammers spent). It isn't always clear what the right time is to perform a comparison (I mean, if you do 10+ comparisons to t45, some of those will have to be carried to t50 or plus).

Couple of questions :
- Do you instantly share a corn from Paris with Orleans ? Sharing food from the cap can also be a reason to get a speedy settler, because then the initial worker doesn't have to go wander off-site.
- Your tech path in "Mine 3" seems most reasonable (I agree that similar tech paths should be used for comparison, though). We could indeed get Writing around t50. Did you still research hunting, then ?
- I'm not sure what MFG stands for ? Hammers per turn ? Yeah... Looked into it, seems like it.

I hope you see how double worker, while not necessarily the best, isn't either an absurd way to open the game
"Interestingly, I end up having more permanent improvements in each scenario" Agreed, this is rather amusing.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Couple of questions :
- Do you instantly share a corn from Paris with Orleans ? Sharing food from the cap can also be a reason to get a speedy settler, because then the initial worker doesn't have to go wander off-site.
- Your tech path in "Mine 3" seems most reasonable (I agree that similar tech paths should be used for comparison, though). We could indeed get Writing around t50. Did you still research hunting, then ?
- I'm not sure what MFG stands for ? Hammers per turn ? Yeah... Looked into it, seems like it.

No, Orleans was by the plains cow, dry rice, and plains horse half the time - hence the brutal maintenance costs - although faster timing to horse is still worthwhile in some cases!

I usually don't like to share food until the very end - ingrained habit of acquiring as many tiles as possible regardless of costs showing here.

Tech path in each scenario - Mining, BW, Hunting, AH, Pottery, Writing, except for Version 4, which went Mining, BW, Hunting, AH, Archery, Pottery for comparison's sake.

 

[konata_LS]

@soundjata

Spoiler :

Your situation looks good indeed

Yes, I think the attack jacket en Cuir is a sensible choice. You have veteran WEs and HAs to upgrade. Plus, French UUs' 2 have synergy with Cuir. Musketeers are quite good for stack protection against enemies' WEs or pikes.

@sampsa

Spoiler :

375BC without Pottery looks a little unusual. But Lain did similar things in a map that you provided , 475BC no pottery . Several people who did shadow games for that map put Writing before BW. It's been several years so maybe you've already forgotten about that map.

Spoiler :

(mostly : you didn't self-tech Pottery, still wild....).

Sometimes people do wild things when they have a wild Deity AI as neighbour .

 

[konata_LS]

From T131 to T250
(Optics contacts spoiler alert)

Spoiler :

Settings as below, no huts:


Whipped/chopped Forges and CHs after MC. Boudica made peace with Biz but she DoW Biz again soon after the peace treaty ended. Got many failgold from Parthenon, Colossus, and Sistine. I lost my patience while waiting for the failgold from Sankore, so I finished it myself. AP was built by an unknown Hindu AI.

Pre-built WEs, generated some GMerchants to upgrade them. Also upgraded some highly promoted HAs. Built Taj Mahal. Attack with Cuirs. Only 1 or 2 turns after I DoW Boudica, she got dogpiled by Biz:


- or more exactly Biz took his revenge, as Boudica DoW him twice


Boudica capitulated on T215:
(note that Boudica had a city called "Hanover" - that was a city she had captured in her previous war with the Germans)


After capturing many cities from Boudica, the financial situation was close to -50 per turn even at 100%. I was under Slavery, so it was impossible to generate a GMerchant under Caste . To solve the economic problems, I decided to attack the nice dude up north, as capturing each city instantly gave 100 - 200.
The nice dude built some shiny wonders for me


He also build Mids for me - what a nice guy
(the GGenerals settled in these cities indicated how many units Biz and Boudica threw onto each other )


Welcome home, Notre Dame


Apart from so many shiny wonders, he even gave me 2 techs with capitulation. This dude was surely one of the nicest people though he looked a little furious


I was wrong about the resources in my previous post. Our continent actually had Wheat but only in Biz' land. This trade was very important : finally the boulangerie could serve freshly baked baguette and croissant.


Sent caravels to find the three mysterious AIs. Met Justy who has 14 cities + a vassal Monty


It seemed Monty founded Judaism and Hinduism, but the wrong religion spread to SB. As a result, there were several wars on the other continent: Monty DoW Justy but ended up in Monty's capitulation, SB DoW Justy, later Justy DoW SB . Monte had Shwedagon Paya and he was in Free religion.


After Astronomy, everyone except Boudica was under Mercantilism . So I adopted Merc as well. Rep + Mercantilism, why not


The high in the former Greek land was really good for getting GMerchants.


Didn't meet much resistance in my Cuirs attack, as Boudica and Biz had a decent number of units but they lost most of their stacks when they were busy killing each other.


The tech situation on T250. It seems SB goes straight for his favourite civic, Environmentalism before Rifling .
Perhaps Rifles + Cannons would be a solid combo to attack Justy? Or Rifles + Arty? Maybe some Grens as well...? as Monty is very close to Rifling.