Nobles' Club 303: Washington of America

BornInCantaloup

Agent of Chaos
Joined
Feb 9, 2010
Messages
4,735
Location
Cantaloupe Island
Spoiler :
I will have to release those lands to form a colony anyway.
I think you're looking good, well played.
Spoiler :
Are you not in State Propterty but still in Mercantilism ?
State Property offsets all colonial expenses, because they are based on the distance to Palace, which SP reduces to 0 :)

Speaking of civics, if you're also still in Bureaucracy, I'd look at Free Speech instead (maybe wait for a Golden Age for that one ?). 24 cities, 45 towns, low upkeep. Bureaucracy isn't necessarily better.
 
Last edited:

konata_LS

Prince
Joined
Apr 18, 2021
Messages
359
A general question about the trade between the master and the vassal:
Spoiler :

People say "the vassal is always willing to trade with the master" - does the same apply to semi-isolation? For example, if Pacal becomes Toku's vassal and they meet no one else before Optics, does Pacal still trade his monopoly techs with Toku?

Made a small test in WB to answer my own question:
Spoiler Test about the trade between vassal and master :

This is a test about the trade between the master and the vassal, under semi-isolation.

First, started a game in Fractal map and hand-picked Tokugawa as one of the AIs. I chose Toku for the vassal AI in this test, because Toku is the most stingy AI about tech trading - he only trades techs that 100% of other AIs know. If Toku is willing to trade a monopoly tech, all the other AIs under similar circumstances should be willing to trade it.

Next, regenerated the map until the human player (I chose "random" and the game gave me Shaka) and Toku were semi-isolated. In WB, changed the tiles around Toku to unpassable peaks/mountains or oceans, so that Toku couldn't expand.

As shown in the mini-map, Toku and I were in a small continent. The 5 other AIs were in another big continent.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to give cities to a player, so I had to self-build some settlers and send them to found cities (to increase my land area). Gave myself 10 infantries in WB (to increase my power). Also changed the diplo with Toku in WB to make him Pleased:


Once I became Toku's land target and got Feudalism, Toku was immediately willing to peace vassal:


After I clicked "sounds like a deal", Toku became the human player's vassal:


Gave Alphabet to myself in WB (to enable tech trading), and here is the result: Tokugawa is willing to trade IW, Archery, and Maths, even we're semi-isolated and he's the only one who know these techs:

(on a side note: in 475BC, going for Maths and IW but not Agriculture, no Pottery <--typical AI Toku's tech pace at Monarch :shake: )

Toku is willing to trade these monopoly techs, mainly for the reason below:
voluntary vassals are forced to be friendly to their master
So, this test to some degrees confirmed @ f1rpo 's theory.

The trade between the master and vassal can be dangerous, because some AIs are stingy about tech trading but they're willing to become a peaceful vassal at Pleased. The peace vassal makes these AIs trade unlimitedly with their masters. For example, AI Huayna Capac is willing to be vassal at Pleased. If HC is semi-isolated with Hannibal, and HC becomes a voluntary vassal to Hannibal, it might create a monster combo.


Conclusion:
Spoiler :

A peaceful vassal is always willing to trade monopoly techs with the master, even the master and the vassal are semi-isolated. Exceptions might exist for the techs which unlock a wonder that the vassal is building.
Note: this test is only about the peaceful vassal, not about the vassal from capitulation. I don't know if the capitulated vassal is willing to trade all the monopoly techs with the master, when they're semi-isolated. Unlike the voluntary vassals who are forced to be friendly, the capitulated vassal is often Annoyed, sometimes Furious towards the master.
 

Fish Man

Emperor
Joined
Feb 20, 2010
Messages
1,533
Made a small test in WB to answer my own question:
Spoiler Test about the trade between vassal and master :

This is a test about the trade between the master and the vassal, under semi-isolation.

First, started a game in Fractal map and hand-picked Tokugawa as one of the AIs. I chose Toku for the vassal AI in this test, because Toku is the most stingy AI about tech trading - he only trades techs that 100% of other AIs know. If Toku is willing to trade a monopoly tech, all the other AIs under similar circumstances should be willing to trade it.

Next, regenerated the map until the human player (I chose "random" and the game gave me Shaka) and Toku were semi-isolated. In WB, changed the tiles around Toku to unpassable peaks/mountains or oceans, so that Toku couldn't expand.

As shown in the mini-map, Toku and I were in a small continent. The 5 other AIs were in another big continent.

Unfortunately, I don't know how to give cities to a player, so I had to self-build some settlers and send them to found cities (to increase my land area). Gave myself 10 infantries in WB (to increase my power). Also changed the diplo with Toku in WB to make him Pleased:


Once I became Toku's land target and got Feudalism, Toku was immediately willing to peace vassal:


After I clicked "sounds like a deal", Toku became the human player's vassal:


Gave Alphabet to myself in WB (to enable tech trading), and here is the result: Tokugawa is willing to trade IW, Archery, and Maths, even we're semi-isolated and he's the only one who know these techs:

(on a side note: in 475BC, going for Maths and IW but not Agriculture, no Pottery <--typical AI Toku's tech pace at Monarch :shake: )

Toku is willing to trade these monopoly techs, mainly for the reason below:

So, this test to some degrees confirmed @ f1rpo 's theory.

The trade between the master and vassal can be dangerous, because some AIs are stingy about tech trading but they're willing to become a peaceful vassal at Pleased. The peace vassal makes these AIs trade unlimitedly with their masters. For example, AI Huayna Capac is willing to be vassal at Pleased. If HC is semi-isolated with Hannibal, and HC becomes a voluntary vassal to Hannibal, it might create a monster combo.


Conclusion:
Spoiler :

A peaceful vassal is always willing to trade monopoly techs with the master, even the master and the vassal are semi-isolated. Exceptions might exist for the techs which unlock a wonder that the vassal is building.
Note: this test is only about the peaceful vassal, not about the vassal from capitulation. I don't know if the capitulated vassal is willing to trade all the monopoly techs with the master, when they're semi-isolated. Unlike the voluntary vassals who are forced to be friendly, the capitulated vassal is often Annoyed, sometimes Furious towards the master.

Capitulated vassals will always trade any tech, I think, besides if they're building a wonder or spaceship part. Not tested in semi-iso but, in regular maps, when vassals are first to reach a tech - even if they're capitulated and absolutely hate me - they still have to give me, say, fission or steam power or artillery, to help me on my space race adventure. So at least whether a tech is monopoly has nothing to do with it (and so 0% of other known AIs knowing the tech, like semi-iso, likely does not make a difference).
 

konata_LS

Prince
Joined
Apr 18, 2021
Messages
359
@Fish Man
Ah, I see. So, theoretically, for example, a capitulated vassal is willing to trade Fission to you but don't want to give Fusion to you, because Fusion unlocks a space ship part. :think:

If the capitulated vassals always trade techs with the master even in semi-isolation, that'll make the vassal system even more dangerous. I understand some players prefer the games under "no vassal state".
 

sylvanllewelyn

Perma-newb
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
1,571
Good advice. Forgot about United Nations mechanics.

Spoiler :

I forgot that vassals have to vote for me, and that I have genuine non-vassal allies that will support my bid to become UN secretary general. Once I am in, I can propose any resolutions. Or none. Or just win diplomacy.


Deity, normal speed, no huts no events, T284 (1828AD)

Spoiler :


Switch to caste system while I "only" have 24 cities.
Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG


Accept capitulation from Montezuma for a city. With 25 cities, changing a single civic will take two turns.
Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG


The two civs that might build the United Nations is Babylon and Maya. Maya is too strong so my next target is Babylon. If I can capitulate them, then I will have enough votes to win diplomacy. I don't have the strength to do it myself but I know that Babylon and China have poor relations and are similar in strength. I know that because I have open borders with both and I kept one unit walking around their cities.
Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG


I declared war on Babylon without bribing anyone else in.
Civ4ScreenShot0003.JPG


As expected, the Chinese will join without asking them to. I bombard away their defenses and wait for the Chinese to charge in first... and fail. Similar to what happens with barbarian cities.
Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG


Espionage can hint which cities are building a wonder but not which wonder. Anyway by attacking the core cities, I might have interrupted the construction of the United Nations, leaving the Maya with the wonder.

Babylon capitulates after big stacks are removed. The previous screenshot is only a fraction of what was in the city. China and Babylon killed off most of each other's units before I attacked.
Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG


Finish the game. I had enough units remaining to capitulate China and Japan as well for domination but I did not see the point.
Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG


 
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