Nobles' Club 303: Washington of America

[sampsa]

Noob here, are those hammer-less cities (like New York) worth? I tend to avoid "something"-less locations as well as tundra or dessert with fish, for instance.

As long as a city has , it's a good city. should mostly come via whip anyway.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

As long as a city has , it's a good city. should mostly come via whip anyway.

In a nutshell, yes.
@TaPele :

Spoiler :

Of course, you will be suffering whip anger and decreasing your happy cap. There are a few things you can do to work your way around that.

First thing is : whip early.
The earlier you whip, the earlier whip anger starts to fade. Then, you'll be able to afford the next whips earlier.
A situation you would want to avoid is to whip at happy cap, working all improved tiles and lose control over those tiles because of the whip anger.

Second thing is : whip several pop points at a time.
You get 1 unhappy per whip and you get 30 hammers per pop sacrificed.
In the early game, it can be fine to whip a single pop (2 to 1) because the city has a lot of happy margin and there is time for the anger to fade. A city at happy cap whipping 1 pop would simply lose control over tiles.
So, getting 1 unhappy (for 10 turns) is generally associated with getting 60 or 90 hammers worth. The hammers to unhappiness ratio is more favourable and the whip anger has more time to fade while the city regrows.

Third thing is : whip useless tiles.
You can whip unimproved tiles or food negative tiles like mines.
You can also whip unhappy citizens. A food rich city (more than +6F per turn) should not be afraid to grow into unhappiness. An unhappy citizen is -2F per turn (man's gotta eat) but it's also 30H of stored production for the whip.
Growing into unhappiness and then whipping is a way to minimize the number of tiles you lose control over.
A city doing +10F could easily grow into unhappiness, do +8F, grow into a second unhappy citizen and then instantly whip 3 pop (2 of which are unhappy) for 90 hammers. You would want to whip asap, in this situation, so as to avoid stacking too many -2F from unhappies.

Fourth thing is : stagnate at happy cap or higher.
Your city can hire specialists or build settlers/workers to avoid growing further.
Note that the unhappy citizens do not eat (not -2F) when the city is building settlers/workers.
So, if you're accumulated too much whip anger and are waiting for it to fade, now is a good time to contribute a worker/settler to your Empire.
[Note that a high food city (pigs+floodplains) is very well-suited to grow to happy cap asap. If your goal is fastest workers/settlers, however, a cow/copper city would be stronger. It's the tile yields that one should be looking at.]

Fifth thing is : use overflow to convert Food (building settlers/workers) into Hammers (building infrastructure).
As a general rule, the early settlers/workers should be produced asap if/when whipping : minimal overflow. If you want to whip a worker from size 2 to 1, you just need 30 hammers of production.
Now, it's different if you're preparing to build a Library.
You might not want to sacrifice 3 pop points to get the Library and lose control over precious tiles.
This is the time when you set up a settler/worker whip with max overflow, which will give you something like 40 hard hammers into your Library. Then, the building can be 2 pop whipped or completed with some over whips and overflow.
Example : A settler costs 100H. If you whip it just under 70H, 2 pop will be sacced. Production will raise by 60H to just under 130H. Then there is the production for the turn to something like 140H/100 and you have 40H of overflow to place into a building.

Sixth thing is : timing your whip.
Sometimes you want to whip asap. You're building a worker or a settler or you want to start your fading counter for whip anger.
Sometimes you have a 1-3 turns window to choose. And that will be related to your food count.
Example : You are planning a whip from size 4 to 2. The eventual food bin will be 24, yur food count is 16, your food surplus is +6. You can whip right now and reach 22F/24 or you can work your tiles for a turn longer, whip next turn and reach 28F/24 (regrow immediately).
Whipping loses control over tiles. Assuming infinite happiness and a whip cycle (max prod vs rush item), it is always ideal to whip and regrow instantly.
Now, if the city grows onto food negative (less than 2F) or into unhappiness, that can be taken into account, too. Whipping earlier will raise the food output of the city and allow it to regrow faster (hence my example on whipping 2 unhappy citizens asap).

So, solutions.
Where TaPele is very right is that those high food-low hammer cities need to be carefully managed and run poorly on auto-pilot.
Production has to be planned. You need to know where your hammers come from and how you intend to build each item (which is generally true for all cities and build orders).

Final note : If you've read carefully, you will have understood that starting with Animal Husbandry on this map, as I have done, and delaying Bronze Working for the longest time, is a highly dubious line and far from optimal. Being CHA gives a lot of happy margin for early whips. The CHA/EXP combo is particularly strong for 2 --> 1 Worker/Granary whips (or just plain chops).
It doesn't help that pigs and horses are the only 2 AH resources. It would be a little closer with several cows, which we don't have.
I think AH vs Bronze is an interesting question that the opening screenshot raises but : just being EXP makes it extremely valuable to acquire Bronze + Pottery (for said quick Granaries).

Hope that helps

 

[TaPele]

In a nutshell, yes.
@TaPele :

Spoiler :

Of course, you will be suffering whip anger and decreasing your happy cap. There are a few things you can do to work your way around that.

First thing is : whip early.
The earlier you whip, the earlier whip anger starts to fade. Then, you'll be able to afford the next whips earlier.
A situation you would want to avoid is to whip at happy cap, working all improved tiles and lose control over those tiles because of the whip anger.

Second thing is : whip several pop points at a time.
You get 1 unhappy per whip and you get 30 hammers per pop sacrificed.
In the early game, it can be fine to whip a single pop (2 to 1) because the city has a lot of happy margin and there is time for the anger to fade. A city at happy cap whipping 1 pop would simply lose control over tiles.
So, getting 1 unhappy (for 10 turns) is generally associated with getting 60 or 90 hammers worth. The hammers to unhappiness ratio is more favourable and the whip anger has more time to fade while the city regrows.

Third thing is : whip useless tiles.
You can whip unimproved tiles or food negative tiles like mines.
You can also whip unhappy citizens. A food rich city (more than +6F per turn) should not be afraid to grow into unhappiness. An unhappy citizen is -2F per turn (man's gotta eat) but it's also 30H of stored production for the whip.
Growing into unhappiness and then whipping is a way to minimize the number of tiles you lose control over.
A city doing +10F could easily grow into unhappiness, do +8F, grow into a second unhappy citizen and then instantly whip 3 pop (2 of which are unhappy) for 90 hammers. You would want to whip asap, in this situation, so as to avoid stacking too many -2F from unhappies.

Fourth thing is : stagnate at happy cap or higher.
Your city can hire specialists or build settlers/workers to avoid growing further.
Note that the unhappy citizens do not eat (not -2F) when the city is building settlers/workers.
So, if you're accumulated too much whip anger and are waiting for it to fade, now is a good time to contribute a worker/settler to your Empire.
[Note that a high food city (pigs+floodplains) is very well-suited to grow to happy cap asap. If your goal is fastest workers/settlers, however, a cow/copper city would be stronger. It's the tile yields that one should be looking at.]

Fifth thing is : use overflow to convert Food (building settlers/workers) into Hammers (building infrastructure).
As a general rule, the early settlers/workers should be produced asap if/when whipping : minimal overflow. If you want to whip a worker from size 2 to 1, you just need 30 hammers of production.
Now, it's different if you're preparing to build a Library.
You might not want to sacrifice 3 pop points to get the Library and lose control over precious tiles.
This is the time when you set up a settler/worker whip with max overflow, which will give you something like 40 hard hammers into your Library. Then, the building can be 2 pop whipped or completed with some over whips and overflow.
Example : A settler costs 100H. If you whip it just under 70H, 2 pop will be sacced. Production will raise by 60H to just under 130H. Then there is the production for the turn to something like 140H/100 and you have 40H of overflow to place into a building.

Sixth thing is : timing your whip.
Sometimes you want to whip asap. You're building a worker or a settler or you want to start your fading counter for whip anger.
Sometimes you have a 1-3 turns window to choose. And that will be related to your food count.
Example : You are planning a whip from size 4 to 2. The eventual food bin will be 24, yur food count is 16, your food surplus is +6. You can whip right now and reach 22F/24 or you can work your tiles for a turn longer, whip next turn and reach 28F/24 (regrow immediately).
Whipping loses control over tiles. Assuming infinite happiness and a whip cycle (max prod vs rush item), it is always ideal to whip and regrow instantly.
Now, if the city grows onto food negative (less than 2F) or into unhappiness, that can be taken into account, too. Whipping earlier will raise the food output of the city and allow it to regrow faster (hence my example on whipping 2 unhappy citizens asap).

So, solutions.
Where TaPele is very right is that those high food-low hammer cities need to be carefully managed and run poorly on auto-pilot.
Production has to be planned. You need to know where your hammers come from and how you intend to build each item (which is generally true for all cities and build orders).

Final note : If you've read carefully, you will have understood that starting with Animal Husbandry on this map, as I have done, and delaying Bronze Working for the longest time, is a highly dubious line and far from optimal. Being CHA gives a lot of happy margin for early whips. The CHA/EXP combo is particularly strong for 2 --> 1 Worker/Granary whips (or just plain chops).
It doesn't help that pigs and horses are the only 2 AH resources. It would be a little closer with several cows, which we don't have.
I think AH vs Bronze is an interesting question that the opening screenshot raises but : just being EXP makes it extremely valuable to acquire Bronze + Pottery (for said quick Granaries).

Hope that helps

Amazing answer!! Super complete! I never thought the wipping mechanic had so many things to consider XD

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Well, it is one of the more intricate subjects, after all.

Spoiler :

Especially so since a city isn't managed in a vacuum. You need to consider your cities needs, sure, your tile yields, sure, but the most important thing is that your management serves a good plan.
The plan for your Empire should dictate how you manage your cities and not the reverse.

Here, I give you another example.

Seventh thing is : whip shared tiles.
Consider an Empire with 2 cities, both size 4, working 8 improved tiles. Perfect management !
Now, both cities grow to size 5, still working 8 improved tiles. 2 worked tiles are unimproved.
Solution ? Whip a city from 5 to 3 (e.g. a worker that will help improve those tiles faster) and reallocate the worked tiles so all improved tiles are worked.
You still have 8 improved tiles for 8 total pop.
Having some overlap between your cities is a great way to whip easier (not losing control over improved tiles) and maximize your workers efficiency.
In the scenario above, having 2 shared improved tiles and swapping control over them is similar to having 2 extra non-shared improved tiles.

This is my T95, continuing with my terrible tech path.

Spoiler :

I started with setting up Libraries in Washington and Boston, overflowing some hammers into happy buildings.
Research went Monarchy, because discounts but really simply because whipping made that a necessity.

Spoiler :

The Library in New-York is a little late. New-York has had a 39H/100 settler in the queue since 1000 BC (backfill horse) and it started the turnset by whipping a Granary 6-->5.
Now, the city is growing to size 8 to 3pop whip its settler, overflow into a Monument, and then it will be able to complete its Library. That's a long way to go and no help to research Monarchy.

Spoiler :

With Monarchy in reach, I start thinking about my last settlers. Boston saves a little food by putting a single turn into one. It will then 2pop whip at size 8.
Philadelphia finally looks like it can do a little bit thanks to its 3 farms.

Spoiler :

This is just the next turn. New-York has grown a size, is ready to grow another size. Next it will whip the Library.
A worker is ready to put a chop in Boston's settler. A lot of my workforce has been helping kickstart Chicago (next comes a chop into Granary).
Now, I want to whip a settler in Philadelphia and use 2 workers to start roading towards the west.
Washington will start on a settler of its own (slow build) after the Missionary is done.
I do not revolt into Hereditary Rule.

Spoiler :

^ As such.
Lucky Confu spread in Chicago means my Missionary can spread to Atlanta, which is my intended Great Library spot.

Now, this is T95 :

Spoiler :

Workboats have been produced, cities have been settled (within 1 turn of each other).
You can see the Great Prophet in Washington is well on its way... That's the Oracle coming to bite me and I have a feeling it will happen again.
So, I delayed HR to set up this switch to HR + Caste System after getting some last few whips : the settlers from Boston and Philadelphia and a Library whip in Atlanta (overflow into happies).
New-York is probably the place that gets my my great person.
Caste Switch allows San Francisco to hire an artist, which is convenient. Between its Monument and religion, Chicago has no such need and pops borders next turn.
With whip anger fading, Washington spends the turn growing rather than advancing its settler (no hurry for this one - it goes to Krikav's smart location). Washington is now very close to having all improved tiles.

I think I can raise my slider about now and reach Litterature. Didn't look too close. Maybe it's next turn.
Now, I need to start pre-chopping around Atlanta and set up a couple of whips.
Great Library is 350H. 4 forests with marble and OR represent 180H. 2 whips with max overflow represent 150H... we'll get there.

New York
Writing one turn earlier, 2 more workers, 2 more cottages, 1 extra fishboat.

Looks nice.

Spoiler :

New-York needs a Monument, sure, but it's an interesting choice for city 2. It can go BOOM with double food and the horse tile makes it surprisingly easy to develop and contribute early (granary, workers, boats).

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

General comment regarding some discussions going around

Spoiler :

Why would you beeline for calendar when there's only one type on the island?

Deity, no huts no events, T175 (1250AD)

Nothing exciting, just a bunch of trades, mostly.

Spoiler :

Missed liberalism. Thanks Tokugawa (he took astronomy). Missed economics. Thanks Pacal. Also thanks for putting Pacal on the same island to share religion and feed techs to someone that usually doesn't tech quickly. I wonder if the map was designed as such.

I read some spoilers. Someone said they want to liberalism for - - steel - - . What could I have done? I could not even trade for philosophy because nobody had it.

So I hard-researched philosophy and got some trades

I tried to protect Charlemagne but after a while Tokugawa went to take him out. Tokugawa doesn't trade much so there was nothing I can do.

Sometimes the trades just fall on your lap and the game plays itself.

Hooray to tech brokering

Great merchant trade

Pacal somehow missed astronomy, enabling this unexpected trade. TBH my original plan was military science.

Pirate trade! There's a time window where they are quite profitable.

Everyone hates my best and only friend

However sometimes one "friendly" can be more valuable than several "pleased".

Japan with Maya vassal. Let's attack. What can go wrong?

Hard to judge who's actually more threatening when left alone.

 

[soundjata]

@BornInCantaloup
Looking at your T95,

Spoiler :

it looks like you went to far with horizontal expansion (8 cities!)
Unless you generate a massive stream of overflow gold, I think maintenance costs are too high to allow a good Optics date (circa T125 being the benchmark)

Regarding my game,

Spoiler :

I am not content of my Academy turn (and I think it is one very important turnpoint in this game) and know how to improve it substancially.

I also want to try New York on Pig because New York on Fish Horse is a lot of stagnation early and useless worker turns (roads...)

This game really has potential for a superb Astro date

 

[soundjata]

General comment regarding some discussions going around

Spoiler :

Why would you beeline for calendar when there's only one type on the island?

Spoiler :

One type but 6 versions of it
This is my city #6. How would it look without Calendar ?

I think Calendar should not delay Optics by much, does not delay Astro and justifies founding city 6 sooner.
Also MOM!

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@BornInCantaloup
Looking at your T95,

Spoiler :

it looks like you went to far with horizontal expansion (8 cities!)
Unless you generate a massive stream of overflow gold, I think maintenance costs are too high to allow a good Optics date (circa T125 being the benchmark)

Regarding my game,
I am not content of my Academy turn (and I think it is one very important turnpoint in this game) and know how to improve it substancially.

I also want to try New York on Pig because New York on Fish Horse is a lot of stagnation early and useless worker turns (roads...)

This game really has potential for a superb Astro date

Yeah, you're probably right on all counts.

Spoiler :

I'm not sure how much the 8 cities matter but I do know that
Krikav consistently does +10gpt than I do in his first run. That adds up quickly

I'm more unhappy to lack the Academy you mention after I have banked gold twice. I've seen Carpool gets his Academy around 775 BC.
T95 is the first turn I hire a specialist I could have started farming some in Boston instead of making the last settler but no way I have the GP yet.
It all dates back to the wonky decision to Oracle something off Pottery + Masonry. It was a fun thing to do but really inefficient. I also think CoL was the wrong target.

Humkay... I think I'll stop now with this trainwreck.
This is my T103 :

Spoiler :

Decisions have been made, whips have been prepared.

Spoiler :

At least, I'll have gotten a better sense of what not to do
You wanna rush the GLib ? Rush it.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

For el record, the AIs and AI placement this map was left completely random. I only looked at it insofar that I didn't see much potential for a dangerous runaway, as I intended this to be an easy Iso map. Which is still a challenge for people not used to such maps.

So naturally we have the Toku-Pacal teching dream team snagging Lib and Economics, because of course absolutely nothing can ever go according to plan .

 

[krikav]

@AcaMetis Kudos!

Spoiler :

If I where to construct a map thats suitable for practicing isolation, it would likely look like this.
Rich island, but nothing that skews the strategy from "vanilla"-iso too much and AI setup on the calmer side.

Only AIs that have a serious chance of running away here is Monty and Toku, and both of those are managable since they tend to wreck their own economy.

 

[konata_LS]

You wanna rush the GLib ? Rush it.

Spoiler :

Oh, how can GLib and Parthenon both get built in 325BC? It's too early

Maybe that's why krikav said it's often hard to afford both CoL and Aesthetics before Optics. In isolation, it's difficult to predict the unknown AIs' resource or techs. Some AIs are crazy enough to whip the half of their capitals to get a wonder. Still, Caste is somewhat able to compensate missing GLib.

Spoiler :

So naturally we have the Toku-Pacal teching dream team snagging Lib and Economics, because of course absolutely nothing can ever go according to plan .

Pacal might peacevassal to Toku after Toku gets Feudalism, as Pacal is willing to peaceful vassal at Pleased.

A general question about the trade between the master and the vassal:

Spoiler :

People say "the vassal is always willing to trade with the master" - does the same apply to semi-isolation? For example, if Pacal becomes Toku's vassal and they meet no one else before Optics, does Pacal still trade his monopoly techs with Toku?

@sylvanllewelyn

Spoiler :

Toku is the first to Lib - I've never seen that before
But why did you decide to attack Toku/Pacal first, not Monty? Do you want to prevent Hammi from capitulation to Toku?

@soundjata

Spoiler :

Admittedly, 5 from riverside silk is equal to a town, very nice. Interesting to see how the Calendar detour will influence your game in the short term and long term.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

@konata_LS

I can't give you answers because I don't have answers. I can share my thoughts.

Spoiler :

I looked at the island and felt that monarchy gave enough happiness to work all the cottages. Starting (4), charismatic (1), monument (1), wine (1), one-unit garrison (1), that's already 8. Sprinkled a few more warriors as needed.

I did not want to detour into mathematics and calendar. I did not want aqueducts and we only have silk.

Please don't mention that Khmer game again. It was horrible. Let it be forgotten. There I had very few forests to chop so I wanted mathematics to increase yield. Here we don't have that problem.

I did not want to found religions because I was going to build charismatic monuments anyway. What are the additional benefit? Code of laws unlocks caste system but I never felt that I had that much food and health. I would be more inclined if I had The Pyramids.

Aesthetics only enables a bunch of wonders that go obsolete. It doesn't increase health, happiness, food, production, or commerce. We're isolated so I can't trade it for something. The cost of aesthetics is barely covered by the gold gained from failing to complete those wonders. There is also an opportunity cost in lost trade income from delaying astronomy.

Why attack Tokugawa... first in score with the most cities? No deep strategic thinking, just slow everyone down by attacking whoever's ahead.

 

[krikav]

I made a try with unorthodox play, was fun.
T128

Spoiler :

Slow-building the first settler to put emphasis on commerce.

TW->Pot->Mining->BW->Myst, then mason/poly/priest. Writing after that.
Oracle CoL.

Math after that to supercharge failgold-chops.

The settler whipped in new york moves to fish, and two workers where ready to improve the pigs... but no AH.

Calendar was in T85, and 44 overflow+54 chopping landed in Boston that turn.
Forest 1W of Philadelphia is pre-chopped and the forest the worker NW of that stand on is chopped this turn, lighthouse is whipped.
The 3 cities will take one turn each putting lots of hammers into MoM, while the 4 workers prepare to land a large chop T89.

Almost!
174+68+76 failgold too.
Just finished Mono and now it's monarchy.
After that, finishing up alpha+meditation.

Only Washington has done any GPeople stuff. Just need one GSci to bulb Philo. Rest of the GScis I need I can do in pacifism.

Large empire... much upkeep. Just saving up cash until academy in capital is in.

Cash was almost enough to reach optics, had to stall about 2 more turns later on.

Will be able to upgrade one trireme next turn.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

^ All the techs, very shiny !!

Spoiler :

It looks very good, Krikav. After my past misadventures (which I totally brought on myself), I very much agree with :
- Delaying AH until after Writing (at the very least) ;
- Building the Oracle outside of Washington because some amount of scientists will come out of that city ;
- Your location for New-York (tech order dependent).

Yesterday, I quick played something like :
Mining, Pott, BW. Farm, mine, mine. 2nd worker at size 3, Granary at size 3, grow to 6 into whips.
With Pottery first, when did you build your 2nd worker ? Size 2 ? When did you complete your Granary, if you can recall ?

 

[krikav]

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

I had not even thought of the idea to postpone AH... with grassland piggies thats not something you do unless you have fooled around abit with the map, testing unorthodox things, but yeah it makes sense.
Location for Boston (Oracle) was also choosen to quickly get culture over almost the entire island, minimizing need for warrior even longer.
It's also a rather strong production spot, not sure why I missed it in the prior runs where I settled it further north, making it a really lackluster food desert.

The first cottage is done T23, and that finishes worker #2.
Next turn, both workers do some cottaging, but they only manage 4/5 turns before they in unison jump up on the hill to mine (and road) it, granary is built right away and iirc it synced up nicely with about half a bar.
After that, it's speedy growth up to happycap, the worker duo barely manages to keep up.

Why not bulb Astro before meeting the AIs?
TBH... this run kind of makes me reevaluate some of my beliefs about isolation play.
So much effort usually goes into planning the GScis you need for the astro bulb. But with caste+paci... well the the scientists are basically free and on demand.
Kind of makes me want to revisit a nemesis iso map of mine (LHC82) to see if there is some such option available.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Spoiler :

Yeah, I mean, why not afford it all, MoM and Golden Age included. This is a very strong showing.

Thank you for your answer on the early game. You have a very nice Oracle date to show for it.
For comparison, this is the "similar" thing that I did but still not quite opening with The Wheel. So, earliest cottage is T29, hum...

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Oh, how can GLib and Parthenon both get built in 325BC? It's too early

Yeah...

Spoiler :

I think around T100 Great Library is spot on average timing for the wonder
I'm also confident Player could have it around 1000 BC by entering the Classical Era with Aesthetics.

It's mostly about deciding what the important targets are and adjusting accordingly. It's possible the GLib isn't a relevant enough target, here
The combo do be extremely powerful once you get the National Epic, though. I dunno.

 

[sampsa]

TBH... this run kind of makes me reevaluate some of my beliefs about isolation play.

Maybe it's mostly due to the fact that the land available is of very high quality? Good traits help, too.

 

[soundjata]

Spoiler :

Yeah, I mean, why not afford it all, MoM and Golden Age included. This is a very strong showing.

Thank you for your answer on the early game. You have a very nice Oracle date to show for it.
For comparison, this is the "similar" thing that I did but still not quite opening with The Wheel. So, earliest cottage is T29, hum...

Spoiler :

I like the same opening

Spoiler :

with double mine into cottages.
But I prefer settler asap at size 3 because wine hill is a good city (can go worker at level 1, working a cottage for Washington)

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Deity, no huts no events, T259 (1745AD)

The game is not about to finish, not even close. I was hoping it wouldn't reach the late game but it didn't work out.

Spoiler :

When I declared war on Japan-Maya, the latter was already at war with Babylon. China joined the war against Babylon. Now China asked me to join.

Why would I? I am committed to Babylon, it's where I get all my techs.

While I am grinding down aggressive protective Tokugawa, Pacal slaps me around with stacks of cavalry

Peace treaty immediately once available. I can't take both on at the same time. Probably by the time I am done with Japan, Pacal will be waaaaaaaaay ahead but there's not much I can do about that.

Japan refuses to capitulate no matter what and I couldn't stop fighting until they were completely cleared off the continent. Cultural pressure.

Heavy losses even with charismatic cannons. Two of Japan's cities were razed because there was too much cultural pressure from Maya. Universal suffrage is not totally useless because I have 45 towns. Representation is normally the choice but it does not synergise with slavery.

My plan was to finally take on Pacal next. But then this showed up.

I selected a frigate. The defender is the caravel, not the galleon. This means the galleons are loaded. Just like that, Pacal run away with the tech. The good news is Montezuma did not have CG3 rifles. The bad news is Montezuma had Combat 4 rifles.

Biology -- > Medicine doesn't do anything but I can trade them around because the AI does not prioritise them. I can get steam power but the difference in tech cost can be compensated by the reduced city distance penalty from state property in several turns.

Montezuma wants to capitulate but I don't want to accept, at least not immediately. Babylon is friendly with me but not with Montezuma. If Montezuma becomes my vassal, then the "true" diplomacy modifier is the average of master and vassal, which means I won't be able to make that future medicine for physics trade.

If I accept capitulation, then the vassal's lands only count half towards domination. I have been counting tiles towards domination. I will have to fight and finish off Babylon in the future, possibly dragging Pacal in. Pacal has tanks, nukes, Pentagon, and Apollo program already, and it will only get "better".

I could declare peace without capitulation and then use the cities I captured from Montezuma to form a new colony. Let that new colony neutralise Montezuma and Tokugawa.

For both the "peace with capitulation" and "peace without capitulation" options, my attention will turn to China-Japan (Japan peace-vassaled to China). China has destroyers but I will land units in Babylon beforehand and attack from there. China might have machine guns and/or artillery but no infantry. I can overwhelm that with numbers.

If I commit to finishing off Montezuma, then my development will be delayed even further. I keep all the land, but the game is close to the stage where the United Nations will be built and everyone will be forced into environmentalism. I already have courthouses and the forbidden palace on Japan's continent. Pacal has the Versailles. I will have to release those lands to form a colony anyway.

 

[krikav]

@sylvanllewelyn

Spoiler :

You could also accept peace, perhaps get some nice city in the deal, and refrain from making a colony.
Or just take Monty as a vassal...
I think you are starting to get so big, that UN won't be a problem, you hare likely to get the chair, and if not you can likely block most resolutions.