Nobles' Club 305: Elizabeth of England

[konata_LS]

@konata_LS

Spoiler :

What's the giveaway that Mansa is in the game? I'm guessing it's got something to do with his starting techs but I've never heard of this before

Spoiler :

It's in the "soldiers" of the demo screen. At difficulty levels when AIs start with Archery, AI Mansa and AI Hammurabi have higher soldiers due to their UUs. A more detailed explanation is here and here : at Emperor level, Mansa has 22 000 in "soldiers", that's how people know if Mansa is in the game.

This principle only applies from Monarch levels to Deity. For Prince level, AI start with warrior or scout, not archers. AI Mansa start with the same warrior as other AIs, thus the demo screen at Prince level cannot reveal if Mansa is in the game.

 

[chinemol]

Spoiler T 100, Prince :

I think I took too long to get to Calendar, but I still lead the other civs in growth and have a decent army that can apply some pressure to the west. All the civs there are weaker, but Willy and Bismark can become significantly scarier if I give them too long. I think the first target will be Bismark, and I'd really like to declare no later than turn 130 MoM would be nice but with my science rate at 50% I'd also be ok with some failgold letting me push that higher for a few turns.

View attachment 632025

View attachment 632024

nice, wouldn't try for MoM without marble or at least industrious, nor would I run the slider non binary (0% or 100%). by the way, you seem to have a lot of troops, wich is good if you use them, but bad if they just are there to provide safety, when diplo could do that. other players will surely know more about this, but not having overcome prince so long ago, I feel the liberty to reply

 

[BornInCantaloup]

That was fast ! GG, Konata

Lizzy is definitely one of the strongest leaders. My personal experience with Lizzy is: unlike some too strong leaders (a notable example is Capac) who quickly lead newbies to develop bad habits, Lizzy's traits are quite good for teaching good habits to new players. FIN is nice, but we need to build enough workers and put cottage to enjoy better - even a FIN leader might go on strike if all the cities are disconnected and working unimproved tiles. PHI is nice, but to take advantage of great people, we must think about and plan the generation, bulbing, or trade mission. So, IMHO Lizzy's traits suit well the players who want to learn and practise teching and at a new difficulty level.

Thanks for the map

Elizabeth is a late-game powerhouse, which means she looks a lot stronger on paper than she is in reality.

Spoiler :

She dies easy and has a hard time to expand or set up infrastructure, since she pays the full price on every early unit and building. Still, PHI/FIN is a great combo to make up for a slow start and come back in the game. FIN is sort of a passive bonus but you're right her traits need to be leveraged, more so than CHA/ORG, say. PHI definitely needs a plan and helps a ton accomplishing it.
This map really is an exception, in that Elizabeth can out-expand the AIs on a Pangaea map. Also, holy riverside ! (Good job getting your 11 peaceful cities, RExing is one name for the game.)
Maps all play different but, under some settings, leaders like Shaka or Charlemange, who expand easy and die hard will feel much easier than Elizabeth.

On my game : you make a good point about Bismarck plotting. I should trade for Iron Working, now, and build some defence. Odds are he's plotting on me.
Also the Alphabet gift, "+3 Your Small civilization is no threat to us", that was cheeky, right. I couldn't resist posting that pic

 

[konata_LS]

She dies easy and has a hard time to expand or set up infrastructure, since she pays the full price on every early unit and building. Still, PHI/FIN is a great combo to make up for a slow start and come back in the game. FIN is sort of a passive bonus but you're right her traits need to be leveraged, more so than CHA/ORG, say. PHI definitely needs a plan and helps a ton accomplishing it.
This map really is an exception, in that Elizabeth can out-expand the AIs on a Pangaea map.

Agree about that. Lizzy has no cheap building or units for the early and mid game. She might struggle with barbs or early expansion on Deity. Cheap universities are nice, but in a Cuirs stomp people prefer building Cuirs to building universities.

Spoiler :

My experience with Lizzy usually applies to Emperor levels and below, or to my still fresh memories at Noble. So I think Lizzy's traits are good for noobs who learn the game from Noble to Emperor; IMHO the players who win consistently on Immortal and above cannot be considered as "newbies", as they all know quite well growing cottages and great people generation, while many newbies don't. There are still threads where new players ask about how to use a GScientist or bulbing order.
The human player rarely has troubles with barbs at Noble. An unlucky DoW from low level AIs usually comes in 600BC or later (the earliest DoW I've got at Emperor was in 925BC from Monty), by that time the human player has already some Axes or archers. So, at lower levels, playing as Lizzy doesn't die easy, mainly because it's almost impossible to die easy at these levels. On Deity, to deal with an early DoW from Shaka in 2000BC, some PRO leaders often become better. Not to mention Deity massive barbs.
CHA/ORG is actually one of my favourite combo And Nappy is one of the best warmongers in the game, as he has a warmonger trait (CHA) to conquer a large empire and a economical trait (ORG) to afford this empire.
You brought an interesting point: Lizzy and Nappy are both good leaders for new players, but they suit different types of new players. Lizzy is a good choice for the players who proactively fight wars but fall behind on techs or don't know how to use great people (last year @ krikav suggested a Lizzy map to an Emperor player who didn't know what to do with great people). For those who manage well a 4-city small empire but too afraid of wars, or are confused by combat odds and units promotions, playing as Nappy would encourage these players step out of their comfort zone and push them towards domination/conquest.

About your game:

Spoiler :

8 cities in 1000BC is nice . After IW, with these jungles, 10+ workers would probably be required .
Sending a warrior to check Biz's border cities may give you an idea about who is Biz' target. Biz is much less aggressive than Shaka or Genghis, but he's still a backstabber.

 

[soundjata]

T135

Spoiler :

Turns went by...
Complete fail at Math > Currency beeline attempt because I traded Math for Iron Bad mistake because I then have to self tech everything up to CS
Random management of GP, random golden age... Bad tech trades overall.
We focused on London research power and got into a position to almost lib Rifling. But Justi is too close so we lib Replaceable Parts instead. Should be first to Economics.


Hey look! My first 2 towns ^
Maybe change the brown village into a workshop?

There is so much money I need help spending it efficiently

Can I produce 3000 city raider redcoats in the next 10 turns?
Infrastructures are scarce because Liz.
I've never used rifles as a decisive weapon for war

 

[Henrik75]

Deity lets-play with commentary

Spoiler :

 

[sampsa]

@Henrik75

Spoiler :

I think the myst detour was very greedy! Straight to pottery just feels so much cleaner. I do understand though that you do get some blocking value out of those two monuments (plus farmed sugar earlier).

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Deity lets-play with commentary

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Going Agriculture --> Bronze Working --> Hunting --> Archery --> The Wheel --> Mysticism --> Pottery --> Animal Husbandry --> Writing doesn't generate much leverage from Elizabeth's traits for the first ~2500 years. Writing at 650 BC means you run at risk of losing Aesthetics as trade bait. On this map, it is possible to have two Great Scientists finished by that 650 BC date.

Even if you want Archery for defensive purposes, perhaps get it after Pottery if you don't want to try for horse? And Mysticism seems pretty ineffectual when the AI can out-culture you..

Additionally, ignoring Animal Husbandry and not settling for fish means you lose 4 food per turn (3 from Pig, 1 from unhealthiness) in your Capital, and possibly from other cities as well.

 

[krikav]

Fish wasn't scouted, "looks kind of plainsy", so it wasn't until third city was settled that the fish was revealed.
Barbs seems to have been much more of an issue in Henriks game than in mine, I had AI units swarming around me all the time.

I think the location of city#3 could have been placed 1N so get one sugar earlier, but I think as the game where going myst and not waiting for writing for culture made sense.
Archery which was prudent imho but that and non-connected second city set back commerce, so waiting for writing for any culture would have been tricky.

I think I would have done pottery really quick before myst though.
Greed is good, especially on a pangaea. You can get out of any commerce hole if you have enough land, especially with Elizabeth. But if you don't get any cities... things get much more difficult.

 

[Henrik75]

Agree earlier pottery and writing would have been better for the economy, definitely in hindsight could have gone for it before myst despite myst uses for blocking land.

I hate gambling on warriors for barb defense, never works well for me so i prefer just going archery early on to minimize risk.

 

[Henrik75]

 

[krikav]

@Henrik75 Thats hilarious!

 

[jnebbe]

Demigod t101

Going for a 6 city cuir rush, probably against the romans. I couldn't get the monarchy trade till like t90 so perhaps I should've been whipping some more settlers out, we will see.
Bulbed philo and will get 1 more scientist for education, then should be able to get 3 merchants in time to upgrade HA's.
Gonna try to win lib, mansa's teching like a madman, he already got music so hopefully I can get to lib in time for something.