Nobles' Club 310: Gandhi of India

[sampsa]

@konata_LS

Spoiler :

It also depends a bit on difficulty level. I think on deity maintenance, gold-city is good as 3rd one. It hurts my soul to remain size 1 working such a mediocre tile, but is so scarce here pre-pottery (and pre-fishing) that I think you should do it. Also it's annoying that you can't build anything useful in the city, but I think worker should be the best choice. A bit depending on the difficulty level, pottery might be delayed because you need a lot of techs: masonry, fishing, AH.

I think blocking in general is a very bad habit, assuming you have good land without it like you do here. I mean 2nd city to wheat/sheep is good because it not only blocks, but is also a good city. I'd say don't settle faraway blockers if you can get say 7 decent cities without. Settling strongest sites first is very important, as they help you pump out more settlers/workers.

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

I was annoyed by my play, so re-played trying gold city 3rd.

Also had a revelation - the marked tile connects the two rivers, so all you need is to road two tiles to connect all four cities, neat. All 5 workers on the wheat to insta-improve it upon settling. Delhi is 1T away from finishing a warrior, so need to build something useless (for now) to be able to overflow the warrior into Mids. I think I'll chop some Patali forests to Mids for earlier failgold. Getting faster writing is huge (both for OB for reli, and libraries). Perhaps fishing-pottery before masonry is better, but losing Mids would hurt a ton.

Got what I wanted

Spoiler :

T58 Mids with almost 200g failgold. Failing GW next. Got enough to go pot-AH-writing ETA say T72. I'm not saying that everything is optimal here, but roughly what you should be aiming for with such an insanely strong start.

 

[sampsa]

T75

Spoiler :

Just 2-pop whipped cap library and can turn tech on next turn. Went for 1st ring marble in the north just to secure it (=2nd ring fish which is not visible in the screenshot), otherwise the prick would probably just plant a city 1S of marble.

Came up with a cunning idea that I don't recall seeing before. Rush Shwedagon for pacifism? Should be better than settling, but bulbing machinery would be faster optics/astro I guess, though even that is not so clear. Rushing GLib is obv possible, but probably can also just build it. Whatever wonder I rush, it should be in Agra of course to possibly flip Florence.

 

[sampsa]

T115

Spoiler :

Rushed Shwedagon and barely flipped his 1st ring. Other went capital academy and bulb machinery. Built GLib in capital, failing other wonders but could get Parthenon. Should be a decent astro date assuming will spawn GS.

Realized I didn't even consider city gift which would've been a pretty obvious play. Could've gotten at least IW and calendar via trade. I think close to 1AD astro is doable with good play.

 

[konata_LS]

T115

Spoiler :

Rushed Shwedagon and barely flipped his 1st ring.

A question:

Spoiler :

Why did you rush Shwe Paya instead of MoM? I understand Phi + Paci + state relision is strong; OTOH, with Marble, Taj + MoM would give you 12 turns GAge. Semi-isolation game is longer than Cuirs stomp pangaea-ish ones, so you'll probably have 2 or 3 GAges. In such case, MoM becomes tempting.

 

[sampsa]

A question:

Spoiler :

Why did you rush Shwe Paya instead of MoM? I understand Phi + Paci + state relision is strong; OTOH, with Marble, Taj + MoM would give you 12 turns GAge. Semi-isolation game is longer than Cuirs stomp pangaea-ish ones, so you'll probably have 2 or 3 GAges. In such case, MoM becomes tempting.

I think MoM is quite an undervalued wonder, especially if you can get Taj. Here though I had a few reasons not to consider MoM seriously. I had no access to calendar yet, and I wanted to try to flip the newly founded city. I didn't realize what a hopeless idea that is against a deity AI. Still, had I realized that, I have no reliable means to get Taj. Forest has been long gone, so it would require a lucky GE. A few minor reasons why I don't think this game is necessarily best for MoM+GA -strategy: traits. Both PHI and SPI are kinda anti golden age traits, because they allow you to do so much with without the golden age or at least they push the necessity of a golden age to a later date. Shwedagon otoh is very nice for running outside golden age due to earlier access for pacifism, as is Mids obviously.

 

[Nick723]

Came up with a cunning idea that I don't recall seeing before. Rush Shwedagon for pacifism?

Absolutely love this! Just remember to not get code of laws or drama!

 

[redstar]

I'm a fairly new player to Civ4 so I thought I'd join the Nobles Club . I'm playing on Immortal as experienced players say you learn bad habits on low difficulty levels. Speed is Epic. 2000BC, Turn 80.

Spoiler :

My first start I did without any map knowledege. I did the Wheat/Sheep City to the south and then did a second blocking city 1E of the Copper. The idea was to share the wet Corn with the Capital. My fourth City was to the north next to the Fish on the coast. This was to claim the Marble early for fast production of the Great Library.

Once I got to 2000 BC, or so, I then read through the spoliers to see how I compared. Compared to sampsa, I could see that I hadn't made enough workers so hadn't chopped much. I also doubted if sharing Corn with the Capital is a good idea as I planned to run two Scientists as soon as it had a Library. You do end up with Horses next to the City but that was luck rather than judement .

I started again, second City was the same but went with Gold as the third. I had planned to settle here first time round but could see the Gold was vital earlier due to low Commerce. I went with Fishing first and chopped a Work Boat. The Clam gives two Commerce so was still a boost whilst growing to size two and then working the Gold.

I then settled near the Stone to start on fail gold, something I've not done before. However, unlike sampsa the City is 1E of the Stone. By the time time I was going to settle the fourth City Delhi's borders were about to pop again and so I could rely on the Wheat early, I even had it irrigated by the time the settler was in place. Compared to settling near the Sheep you gain Fresh Water and two hills so I plan this to be a production City. You lose the Sheep but that can be given to the Fish City in the west.

Next I'll pop a City next to the Marble, I can see that going next to the Fish leaves you vunerable to it being stolen by Charly. I'm a fan of chopping Monuments as it takes about 15 turns for the border pop and early on the city doesn't produce much anyway.

I'm glad Shwedagon Paya has been mentioned. I was wondering why Pyramids was held in such high esteme but I've never seen SP mentioned even though it has a similar effect.

 

[redstar]

1000 BC, Turn 120 (Epic Speed).

Spoiler :

The fail gold went well, I got 300+ gold from Great Wall and 300+ gold from the Pyramids. The Great Wall was built in 1325, which seems very late. The game even let me whip the Great Wall the same turn it was built, seems a bit odd but I'll take it! I finished The Pyramids in 1275, which was a bit later than I intended. I find the Wonderdates thread very useful for planning the early Wonders. I'm chuffed with 785 Gold in 1250 BC though .

I'd forgotten about City gifting, but sampsa mentioned it, so I "liberated" Calcutta for +4 Fair Trade and +1.5 Liberation Diplomatic bonuses, aren't I nice?! A City is considered Liberated if it is closer to their own Captial than yours. If it's closer to your own Capital they might refuse the gift and you won't get the Liberation bonus.

So at 1000 BC everything seems to be going OK. Charly doesn't have Alphabet yet so I'm researching it in the hope I can trade some things, AH and Sailing would be nice! I've also traded Corn for Sheep and Copper for Horses. Ghandi and Charly are currently holding hands and singing Kum ba yah .

Well, technically, Charly is only Pleased but in a few years it'll be a solid Friendly!

 

[chinemol]

I'm glad Shwedagon Paya has been mentioned. I was wondering why Pyramids was held in such high esteme but I've never seen SP mentioned even though it has a similar effect.

nice start. shwedagon gives acces to religious civics. depending on your game it may be the case that it is just as or more important. however pyramids tends to be superior. pop pyramids, switch to representation and (given you have excess food) asign couple citizens to scientist or other specialist type. they will produce not only research, but also grant you great person points. great people are quite usefull, specially in the begining-mid game

 

[sampsa]

Good game so far, @redstar !

I'm glad Shwedagon Paya has been mentioned. I was wondering why Pyramids was held in such high esteme but I've never seen SP mentioned even though it has a similar effect.

The reason why Mids >>> SP at least to me is the following. Both unlock all civics in one category. In a typical buildup-phase the best government civic by a mile is representation, while the best religious civic in general is pacifism (free religion and organized religion are not without their merits). The difference is that without these wonders representation is unlocked by constitution which is very far in the tech tree. Close to 1500AD stuff. Pacifism however is unlocked by philosophy, which is rather easy to get via bulb in 500BC-1AD range. Philosophy is also on the liberalism path, which makes it a decent tech to go for anyway. So to me, building SP needs to meet several requirements: Access to religion, not going for liberalism and probably also at least one of SPI/PHI, preferably both.

 

[Izuul]

Demigod. I played to T134 (Lib & Astro)

Spoiler :

I decided to play for the long game going for the CS > Education route. With Philo and stone, Oxford is very accessible. I haven't decided where I'm going from here, but with 500+ BPT and now enough happiness to grow Delhi 2-3 more sizes, most options should work. Communism looks necessary here at some point, so i could potentially go for that now and try for the Kremlin to help build an army plus the great spy could be used for a golden age. I could also go straight for rifles or straight for cannons now which is probably the best choice if i go for Charlie. Charlie is friendly though so taking him out isn't necessary if i go UN, but having 14-15 cities instead of 7 could certainly make things easier when i have to invade to the other continent. If i leave him alone i would also need to be careful to not have him be my UN opponent. Many choices need to be made before i continue.

Anyone have any thoughts or opinions on which path i should take next?

Notable dates:
CS - T100
Education - T111
Oxford - ??? Doesn't show up in the log, but probably about 10-12T after Education.
Optics - 124
Lib - T133
Astro - T134

 

[sampsa]

By the way, there is a new map which gives you several gold tiles to settle on
Spoiler Henrik's new videos, IMM 59

I've seen the game until 1000AD or so. Note the speed of the expansion: 2nd city T47, 3rd city T60 and so on. It's an extremely slow expansion pace, which hurts especially when the land is of very high quality. While I do think capital gold is in general more valuable than extracc, probably gold+extra is better than 2*gold. For me, settling on gold (1SW) here is probably the best play, but 2SW is competitive to keep both golds and corn while getting the extra. Yes, losing the cow hurts, but much faster 2nd and 3rd cities compensate a lot. Without urgent need to go AH, chops come sooner. As played (1S) the expansion will be slow, though I think going for faster chops was an improvement.

Again, note how unremarkable the situation is at 1AD. I understand NTT makes tech pace a lot slower, but ~130/pt 1AD at even money is nothing stellar, especially considering it's bureau+academy boosted. Is it possible that double gold, triple gems etc is a bit overrated, while the simple speed of expansion is greatly underrated? Of course, especially in HOF you can and should have both.

 

[Izuul]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

How early did you settle the marble city? I don't remember that spot ever being an option for me to settle, but it's very interesting that you got it as it opens up an entirely different path to play (which you took).

Building SP to gain access to Pacifism is a neat idea too. Although with PHI trait and early Pacifism you might have access to enough great scientists to bulb Philo + Astro + Optics or something else anyway. I would have to evaluate that one a little more, but i really like the idea regardless.

 

[sampsa]

@Izuul

Spoiler :

Both 5th and 6th cities were founded on T63.

Without doing any math, I think saving the first GE for machinery bulb edges rushing SP by a bit. I did flip one forest though thanks to SP culture. No need to get mono+theo is also worth a penny or two.

 

[drewisfat]

@sampsa How are you building MoM? Barring a crazy rich start I can't consistently get GLib and MoM, and I'd much rather secure the wonder that generates GP and conquer the wonder that extends GAs than the other way around. And if I have extra hammers/time available I pick up Parth. Even rushing down calendar doesn't lead to 100% MoM success like rushing Literature does for GLib due to AI tech priorities. To me MoM is for some niche situation, like not having tech trade partners that make Aesth worth it and simultaneously having a lot of calendar resources.

 

[sampsa]

How are you building MoM?

In general, I don't, mostly because of what you say. Calendar is an awkward near dead end tech (only leads to astro).

I have a feeling that GLib is a bit overrated. I mean it's cheap, nice and easy to get, but I think MoM is just a better wonder. Your point on conquering it is of course valid, but also map script dependent.

 

[konata_LS]

I've seen the game until 1000AD or so. Note the speed of the expansion: 2nd city T47, 3rd city T60 and so on. It's an extremely slow expansion pace, which hurts especially when the land is of very high quality. While I do think capital gold is in general more valuable than extracc, probably gold+extra is better than 2*gold. For me, settling on gold (1SW) here is probably the best play, but 2SW is competitive to keep both golds and corn while getting the extra. Yes, losing the cow hurts, but much faster 2nd and 3rd cities compensate a lot. Without urgent need to go AH, chops come sooner. As played (1S) the expansion will be slow, though I think going for faster chops was an improvement.

Again, note how unremarkable the situation is at 1AD. I understand NTT makes tech pace a lot slower, but ~130/pt 1AD at even money is nothing stellar, especially considering it's bureau+academy boosted. Is it possible that double gold, triple gems etc is a bit overrated, while the simple speed of expansion is greatly underrated? Of course, especially in HOF you can and should have both.

A main downside of settling on the gold is it will make you miss that cow. A plain cow after pasture is still 3 3, a very nice tile to work. Settling on the flood plain will make you keep both cow + corn in the capital. But I agree with your thought about the speed of expansion. Probably size 5 settler was great for early but it delayed the founding of a second city. I can understand the importance of early in NTT though, as in NTT once the players crash the economy and fall behind, it'll be impossible to use Philo or Aesthetics as trade bait to catch up.

Meanwhile I'm not competent enough to comment about Henrik's research, as I usually have only 50 or 60 at even money in 1AD ; when things go bad in 1AD I'm still at the edge of the strike .

 

[konata_LS]

From T149 to T155 (contact all the AIs)

Spoiler :

Settings as below, no huts:


The caravel finally found another AI, Cathy.
(Just 1 turn ago, Charlie finished Mids, that's why in the screenshot below I had more than 1000 from failgold)


But Cathy was plotting


Met Hanni on the same turn. But Hanni was plotting as well


Oh, that explained things: Hatty is worst enemy of 3 AIs


The diplo situation is full of chaos: everyone is at wars, except the Buddhist lovefest (Charlie & me) and the lonely Lincoln. Another GGeneral born in far away land on T152 or T153

Next turn Cathy asked me to join her wars against Shaka, I refused, which led to another -2 penalty and she dropped to Cautious. Given the current situation, maybe it's better to stay temporarily under HR to avoid making her Annoyed, as I already suffer -2 penalty for different religion with her. Got Sugar from Cathy and Wine from Hanni through resources trade.

The tech situation on T155: I would really like to get Feudalism through trade, but Hatty is unwilling to trade it to me. And I don't want to trade with Charlie, because Charlie is probably my next war target. The rest of AIs have no Feudalism, no CoL. I ended up self-teching CS .
Well... AI Shaka has often caveman tech rate. But Emperor AI Hannibal in 900AD without CoL and Feudalism looks just bizarre .Perhaps the endless wars slowed down theses AIs' tech pace...?


The phase before Astro and a series of wrong decisions were indeed frustrating for me, so I took a break then decided to play this game until the bitter end. But after Optics contacts, AIs' tech situation has given me some hope. Things might be less desperate than I imagined. An attack with Cannons is definitely possible. Before playing further, I need to watch some videos of "semi-isolation with a peaceful AI" to learn about the tech path and build-up after Astronomy.

 

[konata_LS]

Spoiler :

cathy + hatty declared on me. hannibal too. no troops on the ground, only a failed amphibious city attack.

now... how on earth did cathy manage to be at peace with shaka despite her having hatty as a vassal goes beyond me. hannibal also was at peace, despite having a different religion.

Spoiler :

Some random factors (random spread of religion, AI plotting) may play a huge role in such games that the human player has no control over the diplo situation before Optics. I wonder if the dogpile DoW from Hannibal to you was from AP resolution.
In my game things went completely to another direction: Shaka DoW Cathy, Hannibal DoW Hatty despite shared religion. 7 GGenerals before 900AD.

Demigod. I played to T134 (Lib & Astro)

Spoiler :

I decided to play for the long game going for the CS > Education route. With Philo and stone, Oxford is very accessible.

Spoiler :

500 + in 475AD is awesome . Early education is a worthy detour for Phi + stone. In comparison I only have 250 in 900AD because I didn't go lib route and chose astro bulbing .