Nobles' Club 318: Huayna Capac of the Incas

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Huayna Quechua of Inca, whom we last played in NC 278. The Incans start with Agriculture and Mysticism.

• Traits: Huayna is Financial and Industrious. Financial adds +1 to any tile that already produces at least 2. Industrious gives a +50% bonus to all Wonders (World and National), and gives a +100% bonus to Forges.
• The UB: The Terrace, a Granary with +2. Half of the creative trait on the most powerful building in the game, unlocked within a minimum of two techs. Makes starting with Mysticism that much more of a waste unless you end up next to an actual Creative leader who's culture you need to push back. Except...
• The UU: The Quechua, a Warrior with +100% vs. Archery units and a free Combat I promotion. I'd say "nice barb protection", but rest assured that's not what most Deity players use these guys for. In addition these guys directly upgrade into Maceman, meaning you can build them as cheap military police for much longer than regular Warriors.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Pangaea, Temperate climate, High sealevel.

Spoiler edits :

Swapped a single flatland and hill. No other edits, not even strategic resource swaps .

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 318 Hauyna Capac Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

I mean...I'm sure we can spare a few grassland tiles for a 3 city tile...

What do the expert think? Other than "Quechua Rush !"?

 

[Noble Zarkon]

What do the expert think? Other than "Quechua Rush !"?

What else is there, settle on Stone, build quechas, win

 

[Nick723]

What else is there, settle on Stone, build quechas, win

industrious + stone and marble is also quite fun every once in a while!

 

[Noble Zarkon]

industrious + stone and marble is also quite fun every once in a while!

Yeah you can settle down to build Wonders once the AIs get metal but by that time you've probably absorbed a number of Empires into your own

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

Is Quechua rushing on deity something everyone should do at least once in their life? I tried à quechua rush once and it went very badly. I was isolated. Is there a good guide or let’s play?

I think I’ve seen some guides before but they all seem to date from the era when the Quechua rush was considered the only reliable way to win on deity. And I assume it’s beneath Lain so no point finding his HC games

 

[AcaMetis]

I'd say messing around with Quechuas is something you should do at least once. Even if it's not playing out a full game post-Quechua rush it's worth seeing Sitting Bull archers just get wiped off the board by unique Warriors

 

[CGQ]

Spoiler Played to Turn 138 :

One of my best immortal games so far.

Turn 15 I managed to cake Hanni's capital with about 4-5 Quechas:

Bulbed Phi, built Mids and Parthenon, went to rep, Pacifism, double bulbed EDU, bulbed Lib, Libbed MIT, and here we are:

7 Cities, but I'm about to build a big Cuir army to take over the continent. Cheers!

 

[uhbe]

Spoiler first time playing nobles club :

I didnt rush anybody and took Hannibals stuff with trebuchets and some other units. It went okay because I only warred against the 2 people with the minority religion so France and America were my friends. I was about to take everything from green (Khmer) but suddenly everbody chose to become France's vassal. Can somebody explain how vassal states work / how to play around them? I then declared war on France and moved my huge army stack into fog of war next to his capital... huge mistake, which made me lose my entire army and I decided to reload. I then found out that France declared war on me one turn later, they moved their stack next to my city and I wiped him.


I havent played in years but this game seemed so hard for noble. I probalby should have rushed with the unique units too. What I found out this game is that I have no idea how to do warfare efficiently. It was great fun though, I'm happy to receive advise

 

[CGQ]

Spoiler Finished the Game :

After libbing MT, I whipped up a nice large army of about 20-25 Cuirs. Look me a bit since I only had 7 cities to work with. I went for the weakest target...Napoleon!

Though Napoleon also vassaled Suly peacefully, the best part was that he ended up DOW'ing on Washington (along with the now vassaled Suly; Sury later DOW'd on Washington too, likely was bribed...) and while his main stack went off to play around with Washington, I swooped in and took half of his cities, two at a time. Shortly after taking Napoleon's capital, Suly broke free from the vassal (since Napoleon's civ was now too small.), turning his former vassal Suly against him! I sent a small stack and took two of Suly's cities before he capitulated too. Then I expanded my army of Cuirs further while teching for Economics, got a free GM, so my was hovering around 2000-3000 for a while, which allowed me to tech comfortably. I later used a GS and GA to start a second gold age.

My next target was obviously the now war-weakened Washington. My Cuir army was ready and I click next turn, ready to DOW on him when suddenly, Sury, (who was still at war with Washington) bribed me to attack Washington too! It was perfect timing. I'm all like "don't mind if I do, was gonna DOW on him anyways!"

I manage to take his capital and several more cities. He capitulates. Around that same time I finally reach Rifling. I use some of my excess to upgrade most of my cuirs to calvary. (Had about 3 triple medics for GG's that I upgraded for free). By now my stack was about 34. I DOW'd on Sury and took out a couple of his cities too. It was fairly easy and he capitulated. At this point I had nearly 50 Calvary. I finally DOW'ed on Pacal (who only had gunpowder) and took out his main stack with little resistance. He stood no chance against my highly promoted Calvary. About two turns into the war, on Turn 198, one of my captured cities' border pops and...

1380 AD I won Domination!

247047! That's a new high score for me!

Came back after a break from this game to top my high score I set last year? Barely topped it and it was my 2nd earliest win too! Can't complain! Not bad for someone who hasn't played in 3 months.

Also regarding Quecha rushes, wiping Hannibal out so early definitely helped a lot. Quecha rush worked for me since I was able to win two back-back 18% battle odds against archers so I lucked out a bit at the start.

 

[Izuul]

I mean...I'm sure we can spare a few grassland tiles for a 3 city tile...

What do the expert think? Other than "Quechua Rush !"?

It's Inca with 5HPT at size 1. Unless you know the map is an archipelago, it's hard to not just spam some 3T quechas. Worst case scenario you have your barb defense sorted out for awhile.

 

[Samuel_996]

Sorry to bump but I loaded this out of curiosity and by about turn 4 I knew I had to play it!

Deity/Normal to t50:

Spoiler :

Settled on stone, started spamming out Quechuas working the FPH. 6hpt is 2 units every 5 turns so let's hope we find someone.

Get really lucky to find Hannibal's settler and Archer escort heading my way (on the ivory tile) on turn 8. Normally they settle their second city a few turns earlier than this. Maybe they got bounced around by my border pop or just walked off in the wrong direction. Not sure!

Anyway, DOW'd on the same turn, killed the escort, captured the Settler as a worker (city would have autorazed if I allowed it to be settled so may as well have the worker). Captured Carthage shortly after but no screenshot cos I'm dumb.

Have found Napoleon in the meantime so wheel my guys around and DOW him on t24; he has founded Buddhism in his second city but it's not on a hill. You can see from the screenshot my workers are really struggling to find tiles to improve as I limp towards Bronze Working. Decided Carthage was too far from France to build Quechuas there but maybe that was a mistake:

t26 - holy city falls but then we peer into Paris's BFC and see... oh, please no:

HORSES! he's not in slavery yet so can't whip a chariot but he might be close to getting one anyway. I race to burn the tile.

Manage to just about take Paris and sue for peace on t34, leaving him with one new city up by Suryavarman's borders.

With the economy very obviously in the toilet, I limp painfully towards Pottery (t48) for cottages and Terraces. I also start building Stonehenge in a number of my cities to farm failgold with my IND trait & stone.

Suleiman did a crazy Alphabet beeline so I managed to get this amusing trade to help my happy cap.

Empire overview at t50 - took the hit and settled one city of my own for the nice cottageable land. Quite surreal to be at the top of the leaderboard already!

I've played a bit past this point so will try to post another turnset tomorrow.

 

[Samuel_996]

Deity/Normal to t115:

Spoiler :

As previously mentioned, I was leveraging wonder failgold to keep my economy afloat. Or, at least, I was trying to... nobody is building them! By the time Stonehenge finally goes at turn 58 (!) I've built it in 3 and a half cities:

Due to my multipliers from stone and the IND trait, each hammer invested is worth 2.5 gold. Nice!

At turn 71, I complete the 'Mids for myself. There are some good food sites but the real prize is the boost to my happy cap from swapping into Representation - you can see from the below that I'm struggling!

I start to push out a few more workers to improve the tiles as my cities can finally grow and work tiles.

The AI is similarly slow with completing Great Wall, which allows for a repeat of the Stonehenge gold spam on turn 76 (!):

See also a number of healthy cottages going up.

Next wonder - Great Library, t83 - nice synergy with REP.

I deliberate back and forth and eventually decide to build Parthenon (t84) as well in my border city of Paris, which is under pressure from three different neighbours. I don't always go for this wonder, but with my trait, resources and the AI on this map, it seems like I can go for whatever I like.

See also (t105):

I honestly don't remember the last time I built MoM. It's usually gone before I even think about obtaining Calendar. Since I'm obviously going to win the race for Taj, this seemed a worthwhile diversion.

By this point I've largely filled out my remaining land with a few more cities. Washington has vassalled the remnants of the French and gone into red-fist mode. Difficult for me as I have a shared border with him and am in a different religion. I don't really have an easily diplo solution, but luckily my border city is on a hill so I throw down a walls (again, super cheap with Stone) and put some units there. He doesn't DOW me.

The economy is really ticking along now and I have great GPP. We bulb Education at t108:

Looks like we can take Lib whenever we really fancy it. Lib -> Steel would be easy but the fastest endgame seems quite obviously Cuirassiers.

Here's t115 (1AD) without resource bubbles:

You can see from Carthage's build queue that Nationalism is already in hand. In the west of my empire I'm also building whatever wonders are available - again just for failgold. Momentarily I'll be firing a manual golden age, switching into war civics (not Police State though as I'm still struggling for happiness) and starting to push out units to upgrade to Cuirassiers. I don't think I'll be able to use Great Merchants for this unless I get pretty lucky but we can produce gold very quickly between slider abuse and fail gold. Looks like we could be heading for a DOW at 500AD or earlier

A few thoughts:
- Huamanga (2x seafood and copper) has only just been settled (1 boat waiting there already and one being built in Machu Picchu) and I think I've placed Corihuayrachina imperfectly. 1N seems obviously better. This allows for Huamanga to be 1S (copper and 1 seafood) and another city 3N which has access to 2x seafood and pigs. This is pretty poor from me but luckily we're in a strong enough position and headed for such an early DOW that we can just chalk it up as a learning opportunity.
- After my initial conquests & Tiwanaku I settled cities really slowly. Not sure if this was a good move or not. Economy was struggling and happy cap low etc...?
- Think I've probably got quite lucky with diplo. Red fist from Sury or a Washington DOW makes this a bit uglier. It's nice that I am (technically) the founder of Buddhism, because none of them are giving me extra demerits that would occur if they had founded it themselves.
- One option would be pushing this snowball into a Space Race just to see how early I could get the date, but there really isn't that much good land available so domination will be easier all round. Once I'm done I might revisit the 1AD save just to have a try at Space as well but doubt we could launch in the 1700s.

This would make a great first Deity game for anyone. It plays like a generous Immortal.

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

Nice game and glad to see somebody else played it.

Spoiler :

My game started like yours although I didn’t have enough Quechua in place to attack Hannibal before he settled so I razed the city he built on the ivory the turn after he settled and missed out on the worker. I then took Carthage.

Napoleon was happy to talk about his chariots so I then went for Washington. I’ve taken Washington and New York. I think my plan is to leave him on one city to hopefully farm workers because I only captured two. Everybody hates him so I can just keep declaring and taking a ceasefire.

I think the age of Quechua is over apart from bullying one city Washington because I don’t really no where the other AI are even if they still only have archers.

Other than attacking Washington, rather than Napoleon, the big difference between our games is that I went wheel -> pottery first because I was worried about tanking my economy pre-pottery and also I figured that being able to move Quechua around on roads would be almost as useful as chopping more. Bronze working also looked a long way off given we had to tech mining too. I’m not sure I’d even have teched it by now.

I think your T-50 position looks better than mine is likely to be because my captures are so spread out and I still have Napoleon on my border. I only played to T36 and couldn’t really be bothered to play it out because it’s basically already won but you may have inspired me - at least to play a few more turns.

 

[Samuel_996]

Deity/Normal to domination victory t159 (980AD):

Spoiler :

Going to be a bit more brief with this turnset. Would attach more pictures but I can only put 10 on a post!

100AD: Lib -> Military Tradition. Set research to backfill some medieval stuff and then gunpowder (slowly) while we put out some Horse Archers to upgrade.

300AD: more failgold:

You will see that I currently have 4 turns remaining in a MoM-boosted Golden Age. Well, as many people know, there is a glitch (presumably?) in the game where building the Taj Mahal during a Golden Age adds on (x+1) years to your Golden Age. See 325AD - I have 16 turns of GA rather than 15. I find this adjustment can be made in most Taj games and is well worth it.

425AD: We upgrade 14 Horse Archers to Cuirassiers and DoW Pacal the next turn.
Unfortunately, Suleiman bounced up to Friendly on 425AD and then down to Pleased again on 450AD, which I simply didn't notice, so I forgot to beg from him. Therefore...

I decide there's not much point in worrying about this, and Pacal will fold quickly. Indeed, we take three cities including the capital and he capitulates on 560AD.

As I press end turn, Sury/Napeoleon DoW me! I guess that means I'm taking him next, then. Washington is STILL in red fist for me and STILL hasn't declared for the whole game. Cool!

580AD: a "Stop the War against Suleiman" resolution pops up. Works for me! I vote for it and it passes. But...

Suleiman snipes my border city with some knights. A bit of a fumble from me but nothing particularly troublesome.

640AD: We capture Napoleon's final two cities and eliminate him.

820AD: After a bit of back-and-forth with Sury's stack, we eventually push through, taking his southern core. Pacal makes himself useful and grabs the tundra city that I asked him to go for. Sury capitulates.

Washington has a large stack of pikes, maces etc stacked up on my border but clearly my military strength is holding him in stasis. Not much point taking him down when the Ottoman land looks like enough for domination. I spend a few turns healing up and shuttling units back down to Suleiman's border and declare at 860AD. We take cities really quickly even though he does achieve Cuirassier parity, which I wasn't expecting.

I pop a Great Artist in the final few turns of the game. In the absence of anything useful to do, I send him down to one of my new conquests to grab a load of tiles and speed up my finish date by one or two turns. Before and after shots below:

Same turn (960AD) we take the Ottoman capital and eliminate him completely. This AI gets REALLY stiffed for land in this map.

And on the next turn, thanks to the culture bomb, we win domination with one of the best scores I've had in... a good while.

PLENTY of room for improvement this game but it's just such an OP map that there was no need to panic too much about it. Having a look at the Julius game for NC319, looks like that one will be a good deal more stressful. Thanks for reading!

Have I attached the save correctly?

 

[Mr_Trotsky]

I won’t do a proper write up because the game followed a fairly predictable pattern but it was a lot of fun. Perhaps a Quechua rush will become as much of a Christmas tradition as the Die Hard films. Thanks as always for the map!

840AD domination (with another two turns played for a more satisfying conquest).

Spoiler :

Settled stone and started building Quechua and teching wheel into pottery because I wanted to be in a position to build cottages when the rush was over to try to right the economy. The outcome was that Hannibal and Washington were gone before T40 and I was ready to attack Sury with elephants and catapults around T100 - so five or so turns later than I typically manage but with eight really good cities instead of four, the pyramids and a questionable academy. Given how the game went I found it hard to find a good use for great people.

Capped Sury and Pacal with construction and then Napoleon with engineering. I’d probably have won a good five turns earlier if Soliman - Napo’s vassal - had broken free once Napo dropped below Soliman in city count. In any case, unquestionably my fastest deity win. I think I’ll give the JC game a go soon because I’ve never done a praetorian rush and I have a sneaky feeling the map might be set up for that . I think I need a few random fractal - and perhaps tomorrow’s Monty NC game first - for some T1 uncertainty first though.

 

[ariosto]

Exciting map

Spoiler T46 :

I’ve never tried quechua rush before. In my first attempt, I captured Carthage and got bored at some point. But then I got inspired by Samuels_996’s game. This is my second attempt. where I plan to capture both Carthage and France from the beginning.

T1 Settled on Stone, tech Wheel → Pottery. I already expect problems with commerce.
T14 Initially I planned to start war with Hannibal later, but I couldn’t resist to capture two workers. It’s good they pastured that pigs for me, cause I won’t tech AH in the next 30 turns.

T16 Carthage captured. Utica will be autorazed if I capture it now, so I signed peace and moved my quechuas to France. I plan to capture last city with more improvements and population later.
T28 Captured Orlean and Paris. Roads helped to transport my army. I decided to go for Masonry next. Economy is dead, at least I will get some failgold. I need it to push for BW.
T30 Last French city captured, Napoleon is dead. Probably I should’ve razed it and resettle 1E, but whatever. I kept it because I was obsessed with the most deficit resource at that moment: riverside forestless cottageable tiles.

T43 Hannibal founded one more city for me, and exactly where I wanted. What a nice boy I planned second attack 3-4 turns later, but once again I saw the perfect moment to strike. Unescorted worker and single archer in both cities. Had to wait 3 turns for Hadrumetum to grow, so it will not be autorazed.

T46. 7 cities, 26 population, 6 workers, +2 GPT at 0%. Quechua rush is fun!
With capture gold and failgold I will finish BW next turn. You can see worker whips into terrace prepared in Paris and Orleans.

 

[ariosto]

Spoiler T88 :

I decided to go for earliest space. Also, I used reloads for workers management, whips and other micro.
The next 23 turns I settled 3 cities, whipped terraces, workers and settlers into pyramids. I was barely surviving at 0% and couldn't research fishing for 15 turns. Completed mids T67 and got 835 failgold.

On turn 67 I noticed, that Oracle hasn't been built yet. So T67 meditation, T68 priesthood and...

Spoiler T69 Oracle :

Pacal built Oracle this turn. My 6 workers were ready to chop and overflow was prepared, but 1 turn too late. He can't open borders yet, so it must be Metal Casting. I would've oracled it too
Well, going for T69 Oracle on deity was probably too risky anyway.

At this point my plan was to capture Pacal and someone else - I've sent scouts to scout opponent's land. Pacal will build buddhist shrine, so he is sentenced.
Teched Writing->AH->Math->Horseback Riding->Poly->Construction->Currency. Traded for alpha, IW, calendar.
Researched poly for ToA failgold and for this nice trade:

I finished Hanging Gardens T83, which helped me to whip my elepult army faster.
Here is my T88 army, I'm going to declare this turn - 3WE, 4 catas, 2 axe, 2 quechua, chariot. Total army 11 catas and 5 WE.

I feel something wrong about this turnset. Attack T88 feels slow.

 

[ariosto]

Spoiler T124 (replayed from T70) :

Spoiler Pacal war :

I decided to replay from turn 70 (Oracle). Elepult felt too slow, and the eastern half of my empire couldn't really contribute, so I decided to go for HA instead.
The plan was to HA Pacal and elepult Washington then. So I went straight for Horseback Riding. Attacked T85 with 11 HA, and 10 more joined in the next 5 turns.

By turn 95 I captured 4 cities, shrine and colossus. Got MC for peace, so Pacal could live for 10 more turns. But at T107 he is dead.

Spoiler American war :

I also took literature before construction. A little unfocused, but I really wanted Heroic Epic. Attacked Washington T98 with this stack

I felt confident with my army, but Washington was more tenacious than I expected and almost destroyed my first stack of elephants. So the war lasted for 23 turns for just 6 cities.

Spoiler Economy :

I built Hanging Gardens, MoM, Parthenon, Great Library and got Artist from Music.
I halted research after currency/calendar. My plan was to trade for Feudalism and go to mercantilism. It is a huge boost with pyramids representation, and early Oxford didn't make sense with 20% research rate anyway. Unfortunately, AI was too slow to get Feud, so I had to wait 20 turns until they got it. Then I started my first golden age and got Guilds -> banking -> CS -> Education. My tech rate was much faster then I expected. Stopped at the turn where I built Oxford, thinking, what should I get from Liberalism.

 

[zoiks]

A fun map! I played on Emperor.

Attacked Carthage first with my quechas, then went north to Washington. At 275BC, I'd wiped them both out, and upgraded the army to swordsmen and turned to Sury. Normally I don't use whipping so much, and decided that this would be the game to whip my army as quickly as possible. I sued for peace with Sury around 50AD after taking his best cities, and then turned on Napoleon. It was around 300AD by the time my troops had trundled over and longbows were spreading around the world, so I tried to get as many of Napoleon's cities as I could before he got feudalism. I made peace in the 500s, turned back north to finish off Sury in the 700s, destroyed them in the 900s, then went off to finish off Napoleon. He vassaled to Suleiman when down to his last city, so I razed it on the next turn and then took the fight to Suleiman. At 1200AD he capitulated and I won a domination victory, just as I completed the Taj Mahal.

I know I didn't play the perfect game, but this was my top ranked victory on the hall of fame and my earliest Emperor victory by a few centuries.

I learned that an early whipped rush, and keeping up the whipping, gives a ridiculous power advantage. I could have swung towards anyone and beaten them.