Nobles' Club 322: Pericles of Greece

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Pericles of Greece, whom we last played in NC 298; we last played the Greek under Alexander in NC 286. The Greeks start with Fishing and Hunting.

• Traits: Pericles is Creative and Philosophical. Creative gives every city +2 for free, and gives a +100% bonus to Libraries, Theatres, and Colosseums. Philosophical gives all cities +100% generation and a +100% bonus to Universities.
• The UB: The Odeon, a Colosseum with +1 , +3, +2 Artist specialist slots and and additional +1 with Hit Singles on top of what a regular Colosseum gives. If you ever need to solidify your control of a border city, both in terms of happiness and culture, this is the building you want.
• The UU: The Phalanx, an Axeman with +100% defence vs. Chariots. Generally considered a waste of a UU, since the Greek start with Hunting and thus will be able to build Spears in any situation they can build Phalanxes. Still, if you're rushing someone that doesn't have Horseback Riding you might be able to get away with taking an extra Phalanx along rather than a Spear stack defender. Just be sure to use espionage to make sure your target doesn't get HBR halfway through your rush, otherwise you might end up regretting that decision .

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Fractal, Temperate climate, High sealevel..

Spoiler edits :

A few strategic resource swaps, one unworkable Fish was moved elsewhere, and half the civ roster was flung about to others' starting points such that I had to make the WB-saves twice .

Spoiler isolated? :

Semi-iso.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 322 Pericles Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

I'm sure at least one person has some kind of unusual starting move to get a capital with more open tiles to improve and still enough food, but boring old me looks at this starting position and just goes "good enough" TBH .

Any experts want to weight in with the unusual starting moves ?

 

[Fippy]

Maybe if the scout finds some east, reaching BW won't be that fast without agri or mining.
Spending a turn on 1N should be considered..having the green hill available would actually improve this starting posi, looks like there's nothing else for the worker after double corn.

 

[soundjata]

Maybe if the scout finds some east, reaching BW won't be that fast without agri or mining.
Spending a turn on 1N should be considered..having the green hill available would actually improve this starting posi, looks like there's nothing else for the worker after double corn.

Apparently SIP has a couple of non forest tiles in the fog : WWS and WNN
Maybe we could farm one of those.

 

[soundjata]

Deity T45

Spoiler :

SIP sealed my destiny : Trapped by a Gandhi.. (Even my scout is lol)

Went settler @size1 because it looked gorgeous (16 tuns exactly) and fogbusting is not an issue.
Went AH first because I believed in second city East, by the cows. Gandhi believes in founding multiple religions.
Went second settler @size2.

Just discovered the copper.

What can we do with 4 cities only? Rush Optics? Hope for archipelagos to expand into?
Should we get Gandhi to friendly and do we need a city gift for that?

Pottery first or Writing asap?

Or convert all forests into Phalanxes?

 

[Fippy]

@soundjata

Spoiler :

Axepult..maths bulb looks good for that with philo.

 

[soundjata]

@Fippy

Spoiler :

I wonder what's the best alternative between conquering Gandhi asap or staying at peace for a little while (say till Optics / Engineering)
The main (short term) benefit of a war I can see is extracting useful techs (Alpha, MC, ...)
Are there others?
In anycase it will be a delay to an optics beeline won't it? (and what if he gets longbows?)

 

[soundjata]

T63

Spoiler :

Crawling for Science.

Underlining typical nonsensical city placement by the AI

Pottery just reached, working a few coasts.
Happy cap is good with fur and Hinduism.
Cottage spam can start, with 4 workers.

Gandhi currently has 6 cottages + a Kashi Vishwanat


Demographics show that the land is scarce on this map : 700 land tiles, out of which 70% are claimed only. (if my calculations are correct)

Guess who's at 55 >>>> our friend Gandhi

Still hoping for some good islands to claim.

Provided Gandhi abides by his 0/10 unit probability and doesn't beeline feudalism, @Fippy plan looks good (Catalanx & Phalapults)

 

[Fippy]

Sorry i forgot to reply.

Spoiler :

Construction also has nice synergy with Odeons
Imo it wasn't enuf good land for peaceful Optics.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

It's nice to know that, once again, my carefully laid out plans did not survive contact with the CiV AI circa T5 or so .

 

[soundjata]

Spoiler :

Excuse me @AcaMetis but I had vision of Dehli on T4. (before border popage)

Your mischiefs are not enough ​

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

I actually did not notice that massive hill chain before. I swear I put the climate to Temperate, not Rocky .

 

[BornInCantaloup]

I swear, Soundjata, you've had the worst luck.

Spoiler :

In my game, Gandhi settles Bombay off the coast Then we claim the eastern cows with culture and he diverts his settler from the spot, proceeds to settle some no food location north of the hills range. I'm not sure, I don't understand why he settled for the cows that were in your culture ... ?? Did that happen so early the cows weren't claimed ?

I believe AH first is a huge oversight, regardless of city locations. With a forest spam and 3 grain resources that are immensely shareable, Bronze -> Pottery is the way to go.
We also have Fishing for Fishes and Hunting for Furs... We can keep the worker busy without AH.
What we cannot do is expand and increase the commerce output without Pottery

 

[soundjata]

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

I don't think it matters for the AI, if resources are in your cultural borders, or not. They will settle regardless. (Vijay settled T26, Gandhi did not divert for me).


And yeah, my opening might be weak but my closing might be strong

how is your game going ?

 

[soundjata]

T115

Spoiler :

Game has reached a conclusion as we fall short at the gates of Dehli

We were just a little too late to attack him.
Math bulb looked like a shame but saved 4 turns to the construction beeline.
Another GS has made an Academy in cap later.

Gandhi has built the AP and I was afraid of a resolution but it did not come...
He researched Feudalism on the turn we took Bombay.




I do think skipping AH would have made a significant difference

 

[BornInCantaloup]

how is your game going ?

In all likelihood, it's not going any better than yours I did some pretty significant management mistakes early on.
Here, I have this "interesting" turn 48 :

Spoiler :

This is 2x settler at size 3, grow to 4, 2pop whip the 3rd settler. It looks kinda cute, I was all like : "oh, hey, shared tiles !"
However
What I did not anticipate was to be so hindered by the maintenance hit. I believe the 4th city is a huge mistake at this point.
Production is not needed, I should have maxed commerce. I think whipping Athens is also wrong and I should have preserved the pop count.
Those cities are all set up okayish to build their granaries but then it's growth on Barracks while waiting on Writing... Humph...

So... I think 2x settler was okay but :
- I wish I had settled the western Fish for 3rd.
- Built another Worker in Athens instead of the 4th settler (my initial plan until I realized I'd be getting a Worker from Sparta... I changed my mind but should have gotten both Workers).
^ Now the Pottery line would actually generate commerce, instead of just fighting off the increased maintenance.

With Bronze, I think it makes a lot of sense to settle both Fish cities (chop boats) and set up quick Libraries. I settled Corinth East because I read your spoiler and it worried me I think Gandhi is backfilling East at this point but maybe it's right to settle it there regardless.

I did research AH after Pottery (discount) but I'm not so sure it is even worth it.
I'm willing to consider researching AH after Writing (provided 2 cows), so that 3 early Libraries can be set up.
I'd also rather plant cities 4-5 after Writing is researched.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

Spoiler Up to T62 :

Interesting map! I thought there was viability in going Optics first, until Gandhi rolled out Hinduism and Judaism. I think phalanx + catapults is the right intuitive play here, considering how much his empire has to offer.



T45:

Went Agriculture --> Bronze Working -->Wheel, ignoring AH. Got to get to Pottery and Writing for commerce.

No luck on the grass cow in front for me either. I'm doubling down on fish cities, and a bit of +6 +6 + 5 +5 food micro for finishing a warrior into a size 3 Settler build. Committed to 3 workers before a 2nd Settler. because there's a LOT to do here.

T62:

--> Pottery, Writing. It's odd how micro-intensive this game is, but everything is on a deadline, and there's limited production.


1) As you can see, I did not get Hinduism spread naturally, which meant I was at risk of getting declared on until I acquired open borders. Gandhi is sending 2 Jewish and 2 Hindu Missionaries. Why is he like this?

2) I want to start working towards great people immediately, because there's a lot to pack in. T63 double chopped Library. Short 2 turns on building trade network to Gandhi. Not a huge loss.

3) Rushing the library opens up T72 Math bulb. Short 2 worker turns on building trade network to Gandhi. Not a huge loss. Still need 3 scientists for academy + Astro bulb, but likely need 3 out of 4 cities at full production for the war.

4) Then again, is an academy worthwhile? Counting 7 river cottage tiles, 2 foods...Odeon + Hinduism brings happiness cap up to 9.....

5) I was trying to save forests for math chop, but honestly, I'm short on worker turns to pre-chop for T72 Math. Might skip two barracks. Argos is late to growth because it's the one city that can build 3 warriors, saving 60 hammers down the line for happiness.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

In all likelihood, it's not going any better than yours I did some pretty significant management mistakes early on.
Here, I have this "interesting" turn 48 :

Spoiler :

This is 2x settler at size 3, grow to 4, 2pop whip the 3rd settler. It looks kinda cute, I was all like : "oh, hey, shared tiles !"
However
What I did not anticipate was to be so hindered by the maintenance hit. I believe the 4th city is a huge mistake at this point.
Production is not needed, I should have maxed commerce. I think whipping Athens is also wrong and I should have preserved the pop count.
Those cities are all set up okayish to build their granaries but then it's growth on Barracks while waiting on Writing... Humph...

So... I think 2x settler was okay but :
- I wish I had settled the western Fish for 3rd.
- Built another Worker in Athens instead of the 4th settler (my initial plan until I realized I'd be getting a Worker from Sparta... I changed my mind but should have gotten both Workers).
^ Now the Pottery line would actually generate commerce, instead of just fighting off the increased maintenance.

With Bronze, I think it makes a lot of sense to settle both Fish cities (chop boats) and set up quick Libraries. I settled Corinth East because I read your spoiler and it worried me I think Gandhi is backfilling East at this point but maybe it's right to settle it there regardless.

I did research AH after Pottery (discount) but I'm not so sure it is even worth it.
I'm willing to consider researching AH after Writing (provided 2 cows), so that 3 early Libraries can be set up.
I'd also rather plant cities 4-5 after Writing is researched.

Reading spoilers now.... I agree with everything you said post hoc

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Reading spoilers now.... I agree with everything you said post hoc

Well, nothing like playing wrong to spot mistakes
I haven't played Civ since last summer. This is a hard game. I've tanked so much on workers/city builds.
When you figure chopping is the best thing you can do, uh ?

On your game :

Spoiler :

I can buy the 2nd worker over 2nd settler easy. I have a hard time with the 3rd worker before 2nd settler.
(Maybe I'm wrong in that matter, just my honest thought.)

Otherwise : stellar

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

On your game :

Spoiler :

I can buy the 2nd worker over 2nd settler easy. I have a hard time with the 3rd worker before 2nd settler.
(Maybe I'm wrong in that matter, just my honest thought.)

Otherwise : stellar

Spoiler :

Yeah I think that makes sense. I would need one of the workers to speed up the workboat from Sparta (it's 1 turn late as is), but I think that would've been a better play. I think I played off the gut sense that I needed to chop 2 more forests in the south before city 4 to save a settler walk turn and a forest on settle spot.