Nobles' Club 324: Augustus Caesar of Rome

AcaMetis

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The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Augustus of Rome, whom we last played in NC 272; we last played the Romans under Julius in NC 319. The Romans start with Fishing and Mining.
  • Traits: Augustus is Imperialistic and Industrious. Imperialistic adds +100% to Great General generation and +50% :hammers: bonus to Settler production (note that the settler bonus doesn't apply to excess :food: directly converted to :hammers:). Industrious gives a +50% :hammers: bonus to all Wonders (World and National), and gives a +100% :hammers: bonus to Forges.
  • The UB: The Forum, a Market with +25% :gp:. A minor boost, which only few cities will truly benefit from, tied to an expensive building makes the Forum an overall underwhelming UB.
  • The UU: The Praetorian, a Swordsman with a show-stopping 8:strength:, albeit at the cost of losing it's innate +10% City Attack and costing slightly more to produce (45:hammers: rather than 40:hammers: on Normal speed). Praetorians can also be upgraded directly into Rifles and Grenadiers, meaning they can be build until you've researched both Rifling and Military Science.
And the start:

Spoiler map details :
Pangaea, Temperate climate, Medium sealevel.
Spoiler edits :
A few strategic resource swaps, and a few unworkable seafoods that were made workable.
The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 324 Augustus Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.
Spoiler what is demigod :
The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.
Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :
You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

  1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
  2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
  3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
  4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
  5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
  6. Exit the worldbuilder.
  7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.
Spoiler huts and events :
Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
 

Attachments

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Honestly? I think SIP is, at the very least, "good enough" in this instance. Maybe the coastal plains hill would be better to settle on, difficult to say considering it's covered in fog and the warrior is out of position to scout, but I don't think you can really go wrong with triple seafood and wet wheat in your capital. Going to need some helper cities to share the food for sure, though. Probably send the Warrior clockwise around the capital to figure out the lay of the land and how to share the wheat and the clams.

What do the experts think, anyone taking the coastal plains hill? Or something else I completely missed :).
 
I prefer the PH yup.
Makes space for a really good city 1E later (which covers the lost obvious hidden resource tile).
Worker first + Agri looks a bit better than workboats early.
Ph speeds that up, the worker step isn't wasted with 1t of floodplains farm, and an extra city :hammers: isn't too bad with IMP later.
 
Yeh I'd go for the PH too. Shame that the fish isn't on the 3rd ring, so claiming it takes some time.
 
Yay Augustus - the best leader in the game :smoke:
We're IMP and we're checking off all the boxes for settler first here:
- Worker would idle (farming a flood plain in a rich food start)
- Second city spot 3 tiles away
- Second city spot with bonus hammer
- Second city spot with instant trade routes
- 3h tile available (in 5 turns)
- Multiple "good" unimproved tiles (fp, river wheat)
So to me I'd settle 1E, settler first to the ph. Then worker from the capital and wb from ph city. The extra yield from settling ph first will not be more than a monument before I settle it, nonetheless the cost of mysticism. This is also a more resilient setup against barbs because you've split the capital culture defense bonus and the hill defense bonuses up, while settling ph first leaves your second city vulnerable. Barb defense is an important consideration imo here because
We have a dream GLH setup:
- Fishing/Mining starter techs
- 2 good coastal cities showing on game start
- 2 possible islands
- 1 likely good coastal city in the east where you can see a river start
- IND
- IMP

There could be good stuff in the fog by the ph that makes worker first more competitive, but without scouting and assuming the worst case scenario I'd stick with the opening I know I can win with. The Roman boys aren't just good cuz of Praets, but with traits and starting techs they're the best for going GLH.
 
Yay Augustus - the best leader in the game :smoke:
This has me giggling because I have no idea how serious you are. :lol:
So to me I'd settle 1E, settler first to the ph. Then worker from the capital and wb from ph city. The extra yield from settling ph first will not be more than a monument before I settle it, nonetheless the cost of mysticism. This is also a more resilient setup against barbs because you've split the capital culture defense bonus and the hill defense bonuses up, while settling ph first leaves your second city vulnerable.
I've had some beers, but you are sacrificing what close to 20:hammers: by not going ph first? That's one warrior, that certainly would help getting a decent barb defense up asap. Okay, 1E gets the fish which is an issue (or is it?) if cap on PH. One solution is to settle PH, 2nd 1E and get the fish with GLH culture. Not sure if :smoke:
 
In my experience, worker first seems better with these starts. I may be wrong but is that not another hill 1S of the coastal hill? So worker can build a mine at the least, which is a nice tile with boats to build and as imp.
 
This has me giggling because I have no idea how serious you are. :lol:
Not sure if :smoke:
Actually right now I am pretty high.....
at the top of my GR3@T L1GHTH0US3 looking down at you foolish peasants

Spoiler t65 :
Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG
I've decided to go ahead and declare victory here just in case Hatty kills me :lol:
 
We plebeians salute you, your highness and the mighty water tower you built, even if rumors say it was done to possibly compensate for certain deficiencies...

I can't access the game now, but seriously, how many :hammers: did your chosen city order sacrifice?
 
We have a dream GLH setup:
GW with GLH is a august special I have tried a couple of times!

I also consider the PH settle. That extra hammers is so nice.. loose fresh water but looks like health is not that big of an issue.
 
I can't access the game now, but seriously, how many :hammers: did your chosen city order sacrifice?
Not sure I understand, like for the galley? *checks notes* 50:hammers:. Island is visible from Ravenna's tile, but settling Ravenna didn't make sense to me until I was ready to build a granary in Antium, since it's taking Antium's food. I had ample hammers, which was my argument. I don't think the bonus hammer is too much of a snowball for lighthoused fish to overcome. You could volunteer to be the control group settling the ph and see how that approach compares with those city spots/GLh. Eco-wise I couldn't get OB with anyone til I finished writing myself (kinda rare).
 
No I mean what if ph first, 1E 2nd. I understand that the fish is a thing, but so is faster 2nd city which snowballs. Is it possible to build GLH in 2nd city I wonder, in which case the fish isn't delayed that much even. I suppose you are right and I need to test it myself!

Oh and I like the idea of settler first!
 
Not sure I understand, like for the galley? *checks notes* 50:hammers:. Island is visible from Ravenna's tile, but settling Ravenna didn't make sense to me until I was ready to build a granary in Antium, since it's taking Antium's food. I had ample hammers, which was my argument. I don't think the bonus hammer is too much of a snowball for lighthoused fish to overcome. You could volunteer to be the control group settling the ph and see how that approach compares with those city spots/GLh. Eco-wise I couldn't get OB with anyone til I finished writing myself (kinda rare).
I haven't played in years but I was feeling the itch last night and figured I'd try the latest NC map. I was always in that weird place where emp was hard but any lower difficulty felt too easy so I figured why not and just started on emp even though its been so long since I've played. I ended up trying the PH start with 1E second and I gotta say it's so impressive how efficient you veterans are by comparison. I started another save and tried to see what your start might look like if you started on the PH and all I could do was laugh because I probably had similar techs but I was behind at least 2 WBs, a settler, and a few turns on the GLH with similar chopping and a couple whips.
 

Yay Augustus - the best leader in the game :smoke:
We're IMP and we're checking off all the boxes for settler first here:
- Worker would idle (farming a flood plain in a rich food start)
- Second city spot 3 tiles away
- Second city spot with bonus hammer
- Second city spot with instant trade routes
- 3h tile available (in 5 turns)
- Multiple "good" unimproved tiles (fp, river wheat)
So to me I'd settle 1E, settler first to the ph. Then worker from the capital and wb from ph city. The extra yield from settling ph first will not be more than a monument before I settle it, nonetheless the cost of mysticism. This is also a more resilient setup against barbs because you've split the capital culture defense bonus and the hill defense bonuses up, while settling ph first leaves your second city vulnerable. Barb defense is an important consideration imo here because
We have a dream GLH setup:
- Fishing/Mining starter techs
- 2 good coastal cities showing on game start
- 2 possible islands
- 1 likely good coastal city in the east where you can see a river start
- IND
- IMP

There could be good stuff in the fog by the ph that makes worker first more competitive, but without scouting and assuming the worst case scenario I'd stick with the opening I know I can win with. The Roman boys iaren't just good cuz of Praets, but with traits and starting techs they're the best for going GLH.
So the last couple days I've been trying to imitate this start just to try and get a look into how players at a higher level make their decisions and I keep coming up short. If you happen to come back to this map could you give me a bit of a deeper look into your build order?
Spoiler :
So I tried following the 1E settle with PH 2nd. After the settler comes Rome starts a worker and city 2 starts a WB. I tried worker, wb (until sailing finishes), 1 chop galley, finish WB for fish, 2 pop whip 1 chop granary, lighthouse, GLH in Rome. 2nd city builds WB, size 2 settler, WB, size 3 settler, warrior, 2 pop whip settler. This start gets me to GLH by T68 and all 5 cities but I don't have the WB ready in the tundra city, don't have any hammers in the granary in city 2, and Rome is size 5. Tech Ag>BW>Sailing>Wheel>Pottery>Masonry>Writing.


Any insight where I am going wrong in trying to imitate would be awesome!
 
I don't remember 100% but something like
Rome: settler, worker, settler/lighthouse (both of these aren't finished but rather max overflow is prepared to go into GLH since you have to whip wonders indirectly), and then GLH. Granary came at the very end in my run - lighthouse is enough food to grow over whip anger, granary is overkill til happy caps are raised.
Antium: wb, wb, growing on galley or wb to size 4+ to whip a settler.
One more WB was built early in whichever city had time to build it, don't remember.
Tech path: BW, AG, Sailing, Masonry, TW -> . Prioritize GLH techs, tw/pot don't matter til after since fishing is giving us trade routes. BW first over AG is a minor improvement: I will finish both before the worker is ready to farm, but BW won't be boosted by discovered AIs, while when I go to AG I'll have like 4-5 AIs reducing that cost a bit.
Build order is one thing but tiles worked also matters and might be unintuitive with IMP. Capital worked wheat and then the 3:hammers: tile after border pop for settler. I know Antium worked the 3:hammers: tile at the beginning for a faster wb, that immediately went to fish to speed up Rome's worker. Most of the chops went into GLH but I think one went into something else. Shuffled tiles between the two cities based on what makes sense, prioritizing seafood in the city with lighthouse. I think your biggest mistake was slow building a size 2 settler in Antium. We can't use that settler til galley/wb and it's a lot better to grow and do a 2 pop whip of that settler given the food surplus.
 
I don't remember 100% but something like
Rome: settler, worker, settler/lighthouse (both of these aren't finished but rather max overflow is prepared to go into GLH since you have to whip wonders indirectly), and then GLH. Granary came at the very end in my run - lighthouse is enough food to grow over whip anger, granary is overkill til happy caps are raised.
Antium: wb, wb, growing on galley or wb to size 4+ to whip a settler.
One more WB was built early in whichever city had time to build it, don't remember.
Tech path: BW, AG, Sailing, Masonry, TW -> . Prioritize GLH techs, tw/pot don't matter til after since fishing is giving us trade routes. BW first over AG is a minor improvement: I will finish both before the worker is ready to farm, but BW won't be boosted by discovered AIs, while when I go to AG I'll have like 4-5 AIs reducing that cost a bit.
Build order is one thing but tiles worked also matters and might be unintuitive with IMP. Capital worked wheat and then the 3:hammers: tile after border pop for settler. I know Antium worked the 3:hammers: tile at the beginning for a faster wb, that immediately went to fish to speed up Rome's worker. Most of the chops went into GLH but I think one went into something else. Shuffled tiles between the two cities based on what makes sense, prioritizing seafood in the city with lighthouse. I think your biggest mistake was slow building a size 2 settler in Antium. We can't use that settler til galley/wb and it's a lot better to grow and do a 2 pop whip of that settler given the food surplus.
Thanks for the response! I tried it one more time and got the GLH on T58. My timing was still a little slower, but closer this time on the rest. WB got to the third city a little late, 4th city will come up T68 and antium hasnt started the granary yet. Definitely feel a little better about the start than what I had managed. Learned something about saving whip overflow for wonders and focusing on all the food for growth to get the units whipped. It was something I could probably only do because I already knew exactly where I wanted to settle but I timed the whip of both settlers so the galley would come out the next turn in Antium and I could move both settlers at once
 
Regarding Praets directly upgrading into Rifles that OP mentioned. They are a great unit to continue building straight through the Medieval Era... For 45 hammers you get Macemen without the melee bonus. Say you build 50 of them that's 1250 hammers saved for more siege. I build a X-bow or two just for anti-melee but 45 hammer Macemen is an overlooked boon for Rome when pursuing Dom/Conquest.
 
I love that you're still doing these! After 15 years, I still periodically get sucked back into this game.
 
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