Nobles' Club 328: Elizabeth of England

AcaMetis

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The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Elizabeth of England, whom we last played in NC 305; we last played the English under Churchill in NC 275. The English start with Fishing and Mining.
  • Traits: Elizabeth is Financial and Philosophical. Financial adds +1:commerce: to any tile that already produces at least 2:commerce:. Philosophical gives all cities +100% :gp: generation and a +100% :hammers: bonus to Universities.
  • The UB: The Stock Exchange, a Bank with an extra +15% :gold: generated over a standard bank. Banks are rarely build buildings as they are somewhat expensive (200:hammers: on standard speed) and maintaining 100% slider isn't hard to do when you can build Wealth, sell resources and excess techs, or just punch money out of weaker civilizations. That said, if you're planning on going conquering a few Stock Exchanges in economic backbone cities will keep your economy safely afloat. Unless you send an army that would make Genghis Khan faint to take over an amount of land that would make the Romans call you completely crazy, of course ;).
  • The UU: The Redcoat, a Rifleman with +25% vs. Gunpowder units in addition to Mounted. These guys have an edge against the most common unit types they're likely to fight against, including their intended counter unit, making them an all-around excellent unit to use in their era. Rifling is a lengthy detour from getting "any" decent attacking unit on the way to Cannons, but Redcoats do have an advantage in that they can be drafted, and Banking is on the way to Rifling.
And the start:
NC 328 Elizabeth.JPG

Spoiler map details :
Fractal, Temperate climate, Medium sealevel.
Spoiler edits :
A strategic resource swap, an unworkable Fish was moved, and the area near your start was made slightly beefier.
Spoiler isolated? :
Fully Isolated.
The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 328 Elizabeth Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.
Spoiler what is demigod :
The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.
Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :
You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

  1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
  2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
  3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
  4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
  5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
  6. Exit the worldbuilder.
  7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.
Spoiler huts and events :
Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
 

Attachments

  • NC 328 Elizabeth.zip
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Note that imgur wasn't working for me when I tried to upload the starting screenshot, so I've had to add it as an attachment to the post instead. If it looks wonky/missing that's probably why.

As for the start, I'm not sure. My first instinct would be to go on a Plains Hill, but the area up by the Warrior looks bleak. A plains-y, hill-y peninsula, by the looks of it, instead of riverside grasslands? No thanks. Beyond that...I'm really not sure. I'd want to move deeper into riverside grassland land, but worried about moving away from food/production potential, moving towards the food means potentially ruining a seafood location that can share cottages (and if not seafood at least a potential helper city that can share Pig and cottages), and who knows what could be waiting in the fog. Could be wet corn, could be complete garbage. I don't know what the best move here is.

What will be experts be doing in this situation? Other than pointing out some manner of obvious ideal settling location I completely missed :rolleyes:.
 
Spoiler :
SIP can't kill seafood - 3E1S or 2E3N claim all tiles. I think I'd SIP and warrior probably SW-SW-SW-SW-SW-SW for the best possibility to meet someone.
 
Spoiler :
Was referring to moving 1SE potentially killing seafood, since I'm greedy to get more grassland river tiles in the capital, but given the risk of seafood and moving into a whole lot of nothing I can easily agree the risk (and multitude of costs) of moving isn't worth it over just SIP.
 
AH is expensive.
Spoiler :

I think I would move (more river plz) a little with the Settler :o
 
Elizabeth is my favorite leader by far. She can play all three economic strategies (EE, SE and CE) and always has a chance to win with even the worst starts.

and her UU is my favorite unit, period.

Nothing can stop an Elizabeth redcoat beeline. best breakout unit in the game.
 
@MassRiflemen Great idea :goodjob:

I have never done any serious war with riflemen and this game could be a nice opportunity.
 
@MassRiflemen Great idea :goodjob:

I have never done any serious war with riflemen and this game could be a nice opportunity.

This is my general playstyle for Redcoat Rush. Although I play No-tech-trading, I'm sure the general paradigm holds in a tech trading game. I will however outline two early game niche strats first:

Niche Starting Situation One: Elizabeth starts with mining. If enemy capitol is within 15 tiles, axe rush them on two cities; if not, great, then chop two settlers to zone them out of the good land between you and them (any land wit flood plains/gold/silver/gems/bronze/ivory).

Niche Starting Situation Two: If your neighbor is the second player to get a religion, they will build the temple of artemis (ToA). If this happens, karate chop the oracle and get horsebacking riding and chop stables and whip HA's (if you have horses) or math (and then rush construction for catapults+axes/spears). The great prophet that comes out of the oracle is used to build a shrine in the enemy holy city, which is the main reason we're getting the oracle, for the GP. Without the oracle, the captured ToA will pop a merchant before you can get a Great Prophet, nullifying the resources you put towards capturing the holy sity.

While you move out to attack, have one city build, chop and whip the great lighthouse. ToA+GL = gg. This paragraph is a niche situation however, so don't plan on this. Also, don't convert to that religion unless it's safe. With the ToA, GL and shrine city, you win. Also, if you fail to get the GL, the fail gold it good enough to at least try.


However, assuming that above situations didn't happen (which again, are niche situations) Elizabeth does very well with early monarchy. So now for the general playstyle:

1. I will always karate chop the oracle without marble to get monarchy. With lighthouses and a colossus followup, you can tech to engineering very fast in 5-6 cities and breakout with trebs, pikes and maces before 500 AD. This land grab is needed to fuel your redcoat drafts later. Only play a coastal start with 2+ seafood resources and a flat plains forest (this let's you get a work boat in 15 turns). By karate choping the oracle, you also deny the AI's the oracle which they will use to get metal casting, reserving the colossus for you. Hence the main reason to play the oracle to to secure the colossus. However going straight to the colossus that early is a misplay, so we take monarchy with the oracle.

2. On your colossus coastal economy and interior cottage economy, beeline civil service, then engineering. In no tech trading games you have maces, trebs and pikes before 500 AD on Immortal with Elizabeth. Thus I assume you can do this even earlier with tech trading enabled. Keep a small city size (5 or 6 cities) while stacking happy axes and spears and catapults to deter AI aggression. Since your city sizes often hit 14-16 during this build up (you should have monarchy). Whip forges, courthouses and marketplaces (and aqueducts) with excess up happy population. Make sure to trade for +happy resources for the forges and marketplaces. This let's you grow bigger cities.

3. Do not stack more happy units that you have coastal or cottage tiles. Build research or wealth once your commerce tiles are maximized. Once you have engineering, kill the the nearest AI with stone and build the Notre Dame, you will need the +2 happiness later to offset redcoat crafting. Keep killing with your mace/pike/treb breakout until you have 15+ cities. Do not lose your maces, use crossbows for stack portection. Upgrading these CR maces to redcoats is essential later on. Raze cities on the borders of other AI's to maintain a strong cultural boundary. Remember to karate chop the forbidden palace in the captured region.

4. Chop forges, courthouses and marketplaces in the captured cities. If you captured marble instead of stone, play the Parthenon and Great Library. If you already had marble, you should already have these. Make sure the oracle, colossus and Parthenon are all in different cities to avoid polluting your GP pool, while reserving the Great Library. for the highest food city.

5. We're now going into the pre-redcoat turtle phase. Delay economics and build walls and castles in your border cities. 6 Longbows per city with two mobile forces of 5 catapults and 10 formation promoted macemen on either wing of your empire can defend any assault. The longbows and castles will keep your maces safe from counter attacks between turns. An explorer with medic upgrades should also be present. You want to keep a low power score during this era to bait wars and farm great generals. Also when you get Dowed, it makes those AI's take diplo hits with other civs.


6. Once you have the castles and the above recommended defenses, go pacifism and milk great scientists. Double bulb education and whip unis, lib nationalism and then research gunpowder. Build the Taj Majal. Switch to nationalism and draft a musket from each city. Elizabeth's philo trait + national epic + GL + Parthenon + pacifism allows you to get 7-8 scientists very fast. Use the first two scientists for acamies (maybe a third as well), then save two for education. The remaining scientists are saved for chemistry, scientific method and biology.

Build theaters and colosseums between each musket draft unhappiness reset. Theaters and colosseums are a must with the redcoat beeline, since we will be triple drafting later in the game.

7. When the Taj Mahal finishes, go into organized religion and whip stock exchanges two turns before the end of the gold age and let hammer overflow go into grocers. You should also be teching rfiling during the Taj Majal Golden age (also consider using spies to steal guilds and banking). Also save a great person for a second gold age to follow up (great artist or the second great prophet). You want two back to back gold ages during this era. Stop all research after rifling, since you 're going to upgrade all CR maces and muskets to redcoats. Steal theology from someone during this.

8. If you have a Great Engineer, save it and follow up with democracy to get the Statue of Liberty. Mercantilism + Statue of Liberty + Representation allows you to continue research on a 0% slider while you're running a 40%-60% culture slider to offset triple/quadruple draft unhappiness. Kill the weak players while slow teching to communism on a 0% research slider.


9. If you don't have a Great Engineer, tech to steel. You have to end the game with cannons. Kill the strongest player first. Run a 100% culture slider if you must to draft 6 times from each city. Whip spies and send them ahead to start city revolts so your redcoats have no resistance. Make sure cannons fire into the machine gun nests (the strongest ai's will often tech to machine guns during this, do not use your cannons on any city that doesn't have machine guns). After 5-6 drafts, go theocracy and vassalage and promote collateral damage on your cannons and formation on your rifles (the strong enemies tends to spam Calvary, so formation redcoats are a must).

10. Don't be afraid of infantry or artillery or machines. Assuming you beelined redcoats, the enemy will only have a handful of infantry or artillery (or machines guns) if they managed to get assembly line. Highly Promoted Redcoats + cannons delete minor infantry pockets. Also the AI's are flat out ******ed. They will start building factories in their cities when they get assembly line no matter how much pressure they're under, meaning you have 10-15 turns to kill them without them making new units.

11. If the game is somehow going on. Save great scientists to bulb computers and beeline mech infantry after flight.

Final Note: Don't be afraid of grenadiers. Pinch promoted redcoats slaughter grenadiers 1v1. Also nine out of ten times the strongest AI has the mids. Switch to police state for a while when you take the mids to double cannon. production. The strength of the redcoat is its longevity. It can easily punch up against early assembly line civs, and is immune to Calvary and grenadier spam from pre assembly line civs.
 
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Thanks for the tips ;)

T174 deity
Spoiler :
It is Redcoat time :dance:

I want to cap Darius asap and open a window to play with Kremlin.
Darius has stone while I haven't :smoke:
Spoiler :

Hurry production. I'm assuming it works on whips as well as rushbuys :confused:


Wang is the winner of the tech game. He got Music and Liberulism (for Astro lol) while I took the Economics GM.
I invested ~500:hammers: into his religion (buddha) for no real benefit. Last change of civics was Bureau on top of Slavery.

Can get Chemistry from Cathy which will improve the workshops (see below)

Core strategy is Cottages of course

Spoiler :

There was a sweet spot between Copper and Iron :o

 
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Spoiler Immortal T36 - Initial plans :


Settled in place and teched Agri-AH-BW, switched to slavery since my capital was already at happy cap, ready to whip-chop settler next turn.

nc328_t36.png


I think the spot east of capital is best for a 2nd city, even if the fish takes time to improve; at least I can unload the extra food and help grow cottages.

Now with the marble to the south and plenty of forests in London, it looks like a good map to chop the Oracle into Monarchy. The problem is that religions were founded on T3 (Buddhism), T15 (Hinduism) and T34 (Judaism), so even if I beelined Priesthood now and chopped into the Oracle without marble, the AI seems likely to beat me to it. In any case, Monarchy seems to be the only way to get enough happiness to take advantage of all that food on this map.

Therefore, I'm leaning now towards the safer route of The Wheel - Pottery, then take the Myst-Poly-Priesthood path towards Monarchy. Not sure yet where to fit Writing in this, though my impression is that libraries would really help get to Monarchy-CoL without the Oracle. Trying for the Colossus (or at least the failgold from it) also seems viable, although I would not deviate from the main economic goal (getting cottages and scientists in place) to get it early.

In terms of expansion, looking at settling the east spot first then "s2a" to the south which would also be a good helper city for the capital. Later city spots would include pigs-horse to the NW and rice to the north, whereas pigs-marble to the south being less of a priority (most of the riverside tiles are plains). I also like the option of "s2b" and "s3b" since it makes the wheat city coastal and gets copper in the first ring (but with no food resource for that city).

 
@antimony
Spoiler :
I think you are on right track with monarchy. Probably no Oracle, but it's possible it goes very late when you might take a shot at it. Writing seems less useful than monarchy, as you note, but there is the possibility of getting an early academy.

I would not go for the fish city 2nd. Well, unless it's connected, I can't really see from the screenshot. I'd also seriously consider placing that city 1S. That green mine is useful in a low :hammers: start and sharing the copper is probably more important than sharing a second :food:-tile with capital.

How about 2nd between copper/horse? Copper is very useful immediately vs barbs, horse less so. Farmed fp for food. Later you can pick up wheat/pigs, when safety is ensured. Btw I would give very little emphasis on a city being coastal. Not sure why it matters, because of harbor for :health:? As long as you have some cities that are able to build boats you are fine.
 
@sampsa

Spoiler :

I see your point for 1S, might as well settle on the jungles if they're not doing anything. Yeah, I'll try securing the copper first for safety, but I can probably settle city 3 soon after given that I need to keep my capital to size 5 for a while. Regarding Writing, I agree Financial cottages are better so I would delay it after Monarchy (then I can decide if going Writing-CoL right away or maybe Sailing first). Probably straight to Optics after CoL, maybe the marble is a trap.

Re: coastal cities, I was only considering that because Financial lighthouses make every coastal tile a cottage, and perhaps I could fit it in the Colossus eventually (that pigs-horse city in the NW has some production potential, other coastal cities not so much). In any case following your suggestions it looks like most cities except wheat-pigs will have a coast anyway.
 
T79 Immortal

Spoiler :

Oracle->Monarchy next turn! (very surprised it was still available, only two other wonders so far are Stonehenge 2400 BC and Great Wall 1560 BC).

Settled York and Nottingham per @sampsa's suggestions above, and Hastings to grab marble (at least I have a forest to chop a monument). Nottingham 2-whipped a granary into a monument and has a workboat waiting for that border pop.

Although the screenshot shows Writing, I'm leaning towards Sailing first. In my 3 main cities, I can cottage a total of 6 more river grass tiles, after which coast-lighthouse tiles become interesting. My capital can always produce HR warriors if it has nothing better to do while growing. So basically growth > specialists and 25% science bonus right now, even if it means my first GP is the Oracle priest.

Probably won't settle anything else right now so I can grow and research both Sailing and Writing before the slider goes down.

Preferred future city spots (pre-jungle clearing):
- NE corner of my cultural border, 2S of rice (there is no seafood up to 1 tile north of rice): 1 + 1 shared food to grow, plenty of hills and forests, good Colossus spot in the future. Lack of commerce.
- Pig-horse (s4): Some grass-river tiles, so better commerce than the previous spot, further from capital.
- 3W or 4W of Hastings (1 or 2W of pig): some grass, mostly floodplain and plain rivers, health could be an issue.
- 1W-3S of Hastings: off the visible area of the screenshot, have to settle on forest but there is fish 2 tiles away and floodplains. Both these southern sites have more commerce than the northern ones but even further away from capital.


n328_t79.png



 
@antimony
Spoiler :
I think I would go writing. Sailing only unlocks a rather expensive (60:hammers:) building which unlocks rather mediocre tiles... I mean, you have a lot of grassland you can work for free (well, costs only workerT). I would definitely not want a great prophet. Yes you can settle, but it delays academy or astro bulb. Prophet points are ok later, you'll want a golden age at some point I presume.

So, I'd go library in Nottingham to run scientists for academy. Of course also in capital, but it's less urgent and growing seems important. Lighthouses can wait.
 
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I played some turns the other day,
This is turn 50 :
Spoiler :


Soundjata speaks the truth in his opening post.
Without gold/gems, opening with AH is horrendous for Elizabeth. The pigs are about the worst resource the lady could use in her capital.
However,
If we settle 1S (rivers), we can claim the pigs with the second border pop and use them for city 3.

To clarify : Elizabeth needs Bronze Working and Pottery, not Animal Husbandry.
This opening decision is a little dependant on finding another food source (I'm prepared to trash the map if I don't :lol:) and, fortunately enough, we get wet rice and what is now BFC copper.

So, tech path is Agri, Bronze, Wheel, Pottery
Build order is Worker, grow to 3, Settler, get an Axeman, whip settler 5 -> 3.

The single worker in this picture is a little dubious and could possibly be improved upon... but there aren't that many forests in this start (esp since settling 1S burns one...).

There are in the range of 3 very strong city spots to settle and we have to get a little "creative" with the city placements to unlock 2ng ring food tiles (see Nottingham). This includes settling cities 3 tiles away from each other, so the 2nd ring tile gets claimed by another city's 1st ring.

Main tech objective is now Writing -> Monarchy. Up the worker count, don't crash.
Main production objective are Workers and London's Library. Getting the Library asap is crucial to avoid banking gold for too long (London being on the weaker side of a capital does not help that endeavour).
 
I played some turns the other day,
This is turn 50 :
Spoiler :


Soundjata speaks the truth in his opening post.
Without gold/gems, opening with AH is horrendous for Elizabeth. The pigs are about the worst resource the lady could use in her capital.
However,
If we settle 1S (rivers), we can claim the pigs with the second border pop and use them for city 3.

To clarify : Elizabeth needs Bronze Working and Pottery, not Animal Husbandry.
This opening decision is a little dependant on finding another food source (I'm prepared to trash the map if I don't :lol:) and, fortunately enough, we get wet rice and what is now BFC copper.

So, tech path is Agri, Bronze, Wheel, Pottery
Build order is Worker, grow to 3, Settler, get an Axeman, whip settler 5 -> 3.

The single worker in this picture is a little dubious and could possibly be improved upon... but there aren't that many forests in this start (esp since settling 1S burns one...).

There are in the range of 3 very strong city spots to settle and we have to get a little "creative" with the city placements to unlock 2ng ring food tiles (see Nottingham). This includes settling cities 3 tiles away from each other, so the 2nd ring tile gets claimed by another city's 1st ring.

Main tech objective is now Writing -> Monarchy. Up the worker count, don't crash.
Main production objective are Workers and London's Library. Getting the Library asap is crucial to avoid banking gold for too long (London being on the weaker side of a capital does not help that endeavour).

Spoiler :


Animal Husbandry isn't bad if you leverage the lake tile on the way to it.
1687273672266.png

 
Spoiler :


Animal Husbandry isn't bad if you leverage the lake tile on the way to it.
View attachment 665221
Yes, I think you're right and my performance above is not very good.
Thank you for your enlightening input, if ever succint :goodjob:
A few things come to mind :
Spoiler :
You're a full 3-4 turns ahead in research, so the argument "AH is too expensive" falls flat. (I may have more production but that remains to be proven :lol:)

How is this ? Why is this ? We're basically comparing pigs + rice vs rice + copper.
You mention the lake and, sure thing, having the double food in the capital helps a lot to work it more often.
I did get 2360 BC Pottery but have nothing to show for it (cottages, much ?). The lack of extra workers is very much at fault, here, and I find it very plausible that the double food capital would have an easier time pumping them. It's possible my build orders were off, too (re : single worker is kinda cringe).
e.g. : Double food can afford to grow to 4 at some point and work a mine + lake for 12H/t, which single rice has a very hard time doing.

It's probably kinda close between the two options, production-wise, in the early turns.
However,
I believe SIP gets increasingly better as the game goes long. The double food is that important. Starting with rushing the Library to tech into the Classical Era. The single rice plus odd farm do not provide enough food to whip infrastructure conveniently. I have played to Monarchy and felt that difficulty very acutely :lol:

The one saving grace of going 1S (which could not be planned) is that the BFC copper makes barb defence trivial.
 
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