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Nobles' Club 353: Napoleon of France

AcaMetis

Deity
Joined
May 21, 2018
Messages
2,052
The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Napoleon of France, whom we last played in NC 270; we last played the French under Louis XIV in NC 302. The French start with Agriculture and The Wheel.
  • Traits: Napoleon is Charismatic and Organized. Charismatic gives every city, Monuments and Broadcast Towers +1:), and decreases the exp required for units to level by 25%. Organized cuts Civic Upkeep in half, and gives a +100% :hammers: bonus to Lighthouses, Courthouses and Factories.
  • The UB: The Salon, an Observatory with +1 free Artist, providing +1:science:, +4:culture: and +3 GA :gp:. Not a bad bonus for cities facing cultural pressure, but your Great Person Pool will never be free from Great Artist pollution again.
  • The UU: The Musketeer, a Musketman with 2:move: instead of 1:move:. If you're attacking someone with Mounted units and are afraid of Pikeman sniping the strongest units in your army, bring along Musketeers as stack defenders. They can keep up with their allies on horseback. Somehow :whipped:.
And the start:
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Spoiler map details :
Pangaea, Temperate Climate, Medium Sealevel.
Spoiler edits :
The usual strategic resource swaps/moving unworkable seafood to somewhere workable.
The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 353 Napoleon Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.
Spoiler what is demigod :
The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.
Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :
You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

  1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
  2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
  3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
  4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
  5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
  6. Exit the worldbuilder.
  7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.
Spoiler huts and events :
Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
 

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That does not look like a great situation RE: :food:. I definitely don't want to SIP, that grassland looks like prime farmland real estate, and I don't fancy moving away from a Floodplain, so I'm eyeing 1SE. Move the Warrior 1NE to see if there's any seafood that's in danger of being ruined (that water very much look like coast moreso than a giant lake), and if there's nothing worth worrying about, settle 1SE.

That's my read, what do the experts think :)?
 
Played until 900 BC on Deity:

Spoiler :
I know I shouldn't be playing when I have been up nearly 18 hours, but I had the urge to play some Civ. Considering I can sleep in a bit tomorrow, I thought I would give this a try anyway.

Got the Great Lighthouse built in my 2nd city, Orleans. Pyramids about to be built next turn in the capital. Settled 1SE of the starting position and got the stone in the BFC, which immediately told me I was gonna go for this no matter what.

Considering the layout of the land, I figured I should try to block off Pacal and Tokugawa. I got greedy and figured I could always backfill and settle cities on the coast, but doing this means I am not immediately taking advantage of the Great Lighthouse. If I can settle on the northern riverside ivory tile, the eastern land would be totally mine to backfill, with the settler already in place for 4th city by the cows. The land that I want to secure all to myself is pretty much all fogbusted, so no worries for barbarian spawns. Is this smart or am I being greedy and dumb?

Since Tokugawa is the most immediate threat, I figured I should gift him a city and make him pleased. The marked tile seems like the only suitable place. Tokugawa and Pacal are pleased with each other, go figure, and I don't want to be a target. Besides, the dumb nut won't open borders unless he is pleased, so oh well. But wait... I got 6 turns to go for Writing... Grrr.

Needed sleep soon so I played a short 30 minute session. Hopefully, if I have some more leisure time to spare this week, I hope to continue with this game.

Wonders built by AI so far: Temple of Artemis, Great Wall, Stonehenge, Oracle, and Kashi Vishwanath.

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Suleiman is in war mode, but he shouldn't be targeting me. He is very far away after all. I hope he is going for Pacal or Tokugawa? Please? :)
 
Spoiler :
Not going to lie, I had completely forgotten about that Stone resource :lol:. Guess it's fitting for a game I intended to be more of a mid/lategame rush/victory pursuit than as early of a rush as the starting elephants might suggest ;).
 
I want to settle 1SE but the risk is you move away from food. The northern tiles are forests and it's unlikely the spot 2N of warrior will have food (maybe luxury resource). So I'm thinking settle 1W.

Btw, I don't recall ever seeing plains hill sheep before!
 
Plains Hill Sheep exist, yes. They're not great tiles, and certainly not good food tiles, though :undecide:.
 
SIP looks bad. the problem with SE is not enough visible food and possible seafood ruin.
IDK, think it'll take 2 turns to settle this:
warrior NE to check for seafood, settler goes on western PH. if no seafood and settler not revealing anything worthwhile, then yes, settle PH SE on turn 2. worker will still go out a turn faster than SIP
 
1 SE has a floodplain that you can farm. It's not great but it's not nothing either. It might be worthwhile to sacrifice a turn like chinemol suggests though.
 
Question to Gwaja.
Spoiler :

Why did you build the pyramids and the great lighthouse?

You don't even have the food to grow up to the happiness limit. You barely have good coastal cities. It's 900BC and you have 3 cities.

So much land, charismatic, happy resources, I would get greedy and spam cities.

Or am I thinking about this all wrong?
 
@sylvanllewelyn

Spoiler :
I don't see what the fuss is about with not having enough food, when I see good amount of food to be utilized very soon at my leisure. So much happy resource? I see only ivory, and the gems are located in the thickness of jungle madness with 1 decent tile in the cow which requires a border pop to utilize both. The rest requires calendar (also in jungle) so it is far off. So much land? What... that thick vast amount of jungle? I see 2 city sites right in my backyard which I can backfill at any time quickly, and then the rest is all jungle. Not sure why I am required to have been in such a hurry to expand into the jungle for sake of expansion at the expense of reaping the benefits of wonders I like to build if I have stone and think I can eventually expand peacefully long term. I have 3 cities right now yes. 4th settler already about to settle, 5th settler already built and ready to go, and had I decided not to gift Toku a city, I would have been sitting at 5 now easy with 6th somewhere in the jungle I suppose, most probably already having settled the seafood-rich sites on the coast. Usually, that's what I would have done, but instead, I wanted to try a funky approach and elected to gift a city and try to settle way up on the coast and get a foothold over there so that I can secure more land for myself for peaceful "expansion" even if that said land is full of jungle. I want open borders with that stubborn Tokugawa, scout him out, and see if he has neighbors to his south, or if the only way for him to expand is towards me, which could spell annoyance.

You have very limited window of opportunity for Great Lighthouse and the Pyramids. If you want them, you make up your mind to do so right from the get go. Lose that window, and you won't ever reap the benefits, either now or 10 turns later, 20 turns later, or all the way up until they go obsolete. If the argument is... "why build wonders when you are not taking advantage of them immediately and when you have land to expand" then why even consider any wonders at all? I saw this "land" as "not yet contested but soon to be contested, but in thick jungle madness." Would I have gone for these wonders if that said land wasn't all jungle and seemed contested? Most likely not. Anyways, when I build wonders, I build them because it is fun beating the deity AI to them when I can, and when I do, I know I will make great use of them. If I don't think I can, then I won't. Why Great Lighthouse? It is because I want to and plan to spam cities. Also, for my last 20 or so private game sessions, I had built ZERO wonders. So let's just say I had the itch this time no matter what.
 
inm 660
Spoiler :
playing sloppy, but forgiving map. reloaded for failing to capture a barb city. unit next to it, decided to wait for backup, it was a mistake.
failed GLH, got pyramids. not really using the extra beaker bonus though. bad tech path, sub optimal city placements, but gonna build char monu everywhere. overexpanded, but will spam organized courthouses. unsure about how to go ahead. should explore the map and meet the other dude, secure lib or sth
 

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Played to 700 BC (Immortal)

Well I built the pyramids. Got a pretty early date for me at 1360 BC. Built it in capital, and using corn city for new settlers/workers. I can settle prob 1 more fish city south, then grassland cow. Have library in capital and granaries in first 2 cities. Seems like a liberalism game and play peaceful until cuirs? Toku will prob attack me before hand. Maybe I should build up horse archers slowly for the later upgrade.


Wonder question:

I'm considering building hanging gardens. Never done that but seems to have good synergy with pyramids/rep. Also as charismatic health will be bottleneck in mid/late game. Waste of hammers?
 

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If you have 2 good seafood and not much else, is it better to build 1 city and maximize GPs or two cities for overall commerce?

Also funny enough in my game, Mr Peaceful is plotting lol
 
(Might want to put that screenshot in a spoiler, BTW. Blurring is fine for text, not too effective for screenshots)
 
If you have 2 good seafood and not much else, is it better to build 1 city and maximize GPs or two cities for overall commerce?
Spoiler :
Ultimately depends if you've got another city to pump out the great people. In this particular case you have a city that has Pig and Fish that it can't share with any other city, so that would be a good candidate if the acute lack of hammers (obviously whipping a GP pump is less than ideal) doesn't pose a problem
 
@Tecumseh1
Spoiler :

Well I built the pyramids. Got a pretty early date for me at 1360 BC. Built it in capital, and using corn city for new settlers/workers. I can settle prob 1 more fish city south, then grassland cow. Have library in capital and granaries in first 2 cities. Seems like a liberalism game and play peaceful until cuirs? Toku will prob attack me before hand. Maybe I should build up horse archers slowly for the later upgrade.
Your position looks good! :thumbsup: Yes, cuirs seems standard. You can still gift a city to Tokugawa if you want to.

I'm considering building hanging gardens. Never done that but seems to have good synergy with pyramids/rep. Also as charismatic health will be bottleneck in mid/late game. Waste of hammers?
I think it's a decent wonder with stone, especially if you want to build the aquaduct in capital anyway.

If you have 2 good seafood and not much else, is it better to build 1 city and maximize GPs or two cities for overall commerce?
IMO in general one city. Seafood-cities are the best for :gp:-production because coast is mediocre. It's best to have many cities being able to produce :gp: during GA. Optimally your capital can still work it's cottages under bureaucracy and leave :gp:-production for secondary cities, but that is not often possible.
 
@Gwaja

Spoiler :

I agree either Pyramids or GLH is valuable here and would pay off even in a 5 city (4 coastal) empire. (Note that with GLH, it makes sense to also split the 2 southern fish between 2 cities insted of just 1 working both.) It's also a good map to build a wonder because it's easy to establish control on your peninsula (less need to fogbust or beat the AI to city sites), and like you said there is no rush to expand in that jungle. That said, a T70 GLH and T80 Pyramids is a risky bet on Deity (see e.g. https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/wonderdates.656787/), so it would be safer to just pick one and ensure it's built earlier, e.g. settle Orleans inland to get the extra production from ivory and build Pyramids there soon after T60.

I don't see the purpose of Lyons' location. With the wonders you have the fish/pig location is much better as a 3rd city. In terms of just taking control of land, fish/pig city will have a library to pop borders soon enough, and Orleans will also pop borders once more soon with the GLH. It's better to let go of that river if there is no extra food to grow. If you do elect to expand north soon, I would suggest 1SE of cow instead of W of cow, so you can also work the copper as well, and one river tile before even clearing jungle.
 
@Tecumseh1

Spoiler :

Agree with @sampsa this is a very good Pyramids time and overall position.

- Alphabet is the best next tech here on immortal I think. You can't always count on the AI getting it early (unless one of them already can tech trade with you?) Then on to Music if you're looking for a Cuirassiers rush.
- Orleans doesn't need a library, library would only boost research that comes from :commerce:, not what you get from building research with :hammers: with Alphabet. You might as well work on another settler or worker now.
- You probably can't use more that 3-4 great scientists or so on the way to Cuirassiers (Philosophy, 2 for Education, and then either Paper or Liberalism, for the latter you need to know Compass though). So it's good to know in advance which cities would get those when, and after that (or in other cities) switch your specialists to merchants if you're in Caste System. Great merchant money is great for upgrading Horse Archers into Cuirassiers as you suggested.
- Then there's the question of what to do with the Great Engineer points from the Pyramids. You initially want scientists from your other cities, but eventually if Paris pops a great person it could be a great engineer. I think the best use of a Great Engineer for a Cuirassier rush is rushing the Taj Mahal once you get Nationalism, which you wouldn't build otherwise in the absence of marble. This gives you the opportunity of maybe 1-2 more great people like merchants for upgrades, finishing that teching faster and switching to war civics for free at the end of the golden age.


Related to great people planning I really like this explanation by @soundjata in the sitting bull immortal shadow game
 
A correction re: my last reply to @Tecumseh1

Spoiler :

Forgot to consider Pyramids when commenting on library in Orleans. Here Rep. scientists are better than working e.g. ivory so early library makes sense.


Whether or not to split 2 food sources:

Spoiler :

The science advantage of 2 single-fish cities vs. a double-fish one seems bigger with Pyramids before caste, but in practice you might not want to run 2 scientists right away in a single-fish city if you need it to grow to 6-7 pop with an almost full food bar before the golden age (double-fish or fish-pigs wants to be 9-10 pop). Meanwhile Pyramids + CHA counters the worst issue with high-:food: cities, i.e. being stuck under a low happiness cap.

It comes down to whether you think the double-fish city would give you one more great person during the time it matters. In the ideal scenario where you have a golden age + pacifism with the religion, single-fish city could run 5 specialists for about 360 :gp: over 8 turns, whereas double-fish or fish-pigs city could run 7 for about 500 :gp: . Of course they will also build points before and after golden age. So the great person sequence with 2 single-fish cities could look like: 1st and 2nd in fish-pigs city, 3rd and 4th in the single fish cities, 5th in fish-pigs city. It would be hard to get another city like Paris or Orleans to contribute a great person without pushing the bar too high for your single-fish cities to generate their great people. Likewise if you don't have a suitable religion for pacifism in all your GPP cities then you might not get to 5 great people easily compared with having fish-pigs + double-fish.

Meanwhile the best case scenario for double-fish + fish-pigs with pacifism would probably have them alternate great people, maybe Paris or Orleans can get one of the early ones (e.g. at 200 :gp:), or maybe you can keep running caste + pacifism after the golden age (if no one is threatening you due to religion diplomacy, for example), in which case it seems much more likely to reach 600 :gp: somewhere in a reasonable time.


 
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