Nobles' Club 368: Suryavarman II of the Khmer

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Suryavarman II of Khmer, whom we last played in NC 316. The Khmer start with Hunting and Mining.

• Traits: Suryavarman II is Creative and Expansive. Creative gives every city +2 for free, and gives a +100% bonus to Libraries, Theatres, and Colosseums. Expansive adds +2 to all cities, gives a +100% bonus to Granaries and Harbors, and a +25% bonus to Workers (note that the worker bonus doesn't apply to excess directly converted to ).
• The UB: The Baray, an Aqueduct that generates 1. You're not likely to need an Aqueduct early game thanks to the +2 from Expansive, but if that alone isn't enough to keep your cities alive after industrializing than the extra food and health from the Baray definitely will.
• The UU: The Ballista Elephant, a War Elephant with the unique quality to target mounted units first outside cities. It makes flanking a Ballista Elepult stack a risky prospect, since even if you have a stack defender that can keep up with the mounted units they'll not be able to defend them from the wrath of the elephants next turn. A well put together Eleput attack is generally enough of a bulldozer to not really care about minor details like that, though.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Fractal, Temperate climate, Medium sealevel.

Spoiler edits :

A few strategic resource swaps, one Fish move, and a total of three AIs and the player had their starting positions swapped.

Spoiler isolated? :

Full iso.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 368 Suryavarman II Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

Nice floodplains region, though how to leverage EXP and that grassland pig alongside is a good question. Before scout move I'd guess settle 1SW for maximum capitol floodplains and keeping grassland pig, forfeiting the EXP bonus on the first worker? EXP bonus on the first worker is nice, of course, but I don't think it's "move away from floodplains" nice. Though I suppose that might depend on the scout move.

Speaking of, the scout. I suppose you could send it 1NE -> 1E to check out the "give up floodplains for first worker EXP bonus" approach, but I'm having a hard time imagining finding something worthwhile in the fog out there. Worthwhile enough to give up floodplains. I think the scout moves onto the plains hill 1SW, and checks if there's reason to (not) settle either of the hills? Related it looks like the river terminates 1NW of scout so that could be a coastline (or a lake, unclear from the starting screenshot), so maybe 1NW -> 1 SW to check for possible seafood is better? Grabbing everything for a later super capitol is a nice idea and all, but realistically it's going to be thousands of years before any given city can work all of those floodplains by themselves, so perhaps a more even spread among multiple cities is better short term. And in turn, long term.

That's my scatterbrained read on the situation, what do the experts think ?

 

[sampsa]

SIP does give EXP bonus, due to T3 border pop gaining forest ph, giving T13 worker. While I wouldn't like to settle on fp, I think SIP is pretty good.

Perhaps move scout S-W? If there is grains, maybe you can abandon the pigs in favor of ph settle.

 

[Fippy]

Yup agree with Sampsa's scout move, if there's nothing sw SIP works fine.

 

[Build2Much]

1. Thanks again, Tokagawa was a really fun map, great reminder how fun Samurai marches can be!

2. My initial thought was to move settler 1SW, stay on the river and capture 4FP, assumed that was the “right” thing to do. Better players than me seem to think otherwise . (I play on Emperor).

So outside the box and if we think the river end might be coast - is there any thought of leveraging EXP by moving the settler 1E to grab more land, still capture 3FP, immediate hammer bonus on worker 1, and use the extra EXP health as a fresh water substitute (and maybe a hanging gardens play in the long run)? Or am I reaching here? I’m considering moving the scout in that direction instead after reading the thread but probably overthinking it.

 

[sampsa]

I think 1E is reasonable, but that 2 will be useful later. Maybe more importantly off the river means no -connection by the river. That being said 1T earlier worker is worth something.

 

[Build2Much]

Thanks - I don’t know the math, at what size would the capital have health problems if we settle 1E, assuming the pig is hooked up, at least one other health resource, a granary and a Baray (I build UBs)?

It’s pretty high, isn’t it? I’m counting 7 cottages, pig tile, FPH and PH that are workable with 1E settle and it opens the other PH for potential city 2/3 settle to share cottages.

Appreciate the feedback!

 

[sampsa]

Sure it's high, but under 10. By 1AD you'd like to be way past size 10 with this location.

 

[soundjata]

I'd like to find grain. Where can there be?

Edit:

If there is grains, maybe you can abandon the pigs

mb, unintentional parroting.

 

[chinemol]

Spoiler IMM :

played quite a bit. Read the spoiler about the type of map, went for a huts and events game. Screenshot T111, first stop
Settled PH to the east. Agr, Wheel Pottery, Archery, Fishing, Sailing, Masonry, only then BW. Fogbusted quite well this time, the scout came in handy for exploring the frontier. Forgot the barb techs... only monty benefited from that and he's behind and small. Got little from huts and the swordsman quest for isolation! luckily stopped and read what that was about before going on. Got TGL and pyramids. Had got a nice edge on tech, but after astro they caught up.
Thought I had played a conservative Iso game by that point, now I am looking back to see what went wrong...They are teching quite fast, trading despite wars.
Cannons and rifles will be late I think. Might start a splniter campaign from this save/point just to try that route. Otherwise, looks like a tank game if at all
Just to end this rant... Ragnar doesn't like me

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Had got a nice edge on tech, but after astro they caught up.
Thought I had played a conservative Iso game by that point, now I am looking back to see what went wrong...They are teching quite fast, trading despite wars.

"Sure, all of the other AIs are on the same continent, but half of them are axe crazy warmongers and chances are they'll have at least some religious divide too. So how could this map possibly end up in a situation where the isolated player gets left behind in the tech game?" - me, being outwitted by the ever unpredictable Civ IV AI, yet again

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

First game of round 8 noble's club, 14 downloads, one poster. Something's up with the map.

 

[sampsa]

Deity T50

Spoiler :

Found a dry rice on T0 but SIP seemed better still. AH-wheel-agri-BW-(pottery). Grew to 4 to get enough warriors out. Went for -city in the middle first, not sure if it's the best but it helps against the barbs and can farm the dry rice before settling (later a barb archer pillaged it). Now barbs are very well under control though and I think I'm cruising. 4th on the phant I think, need that .

Not in slavery and I guess I won't switch? EXP might allow that.

 

[sampsa]

closer to 1AD

Spoiler :

Didn't go well, hard to find anything to put into and very weak -cap. Barb city in east took all the beavers and the one in the south is in a such a horrible spot. Need to retry I think.

Maybe going for the as 2nd city is just wrong? Need an extra cottage city to the south or west.

 

[0urBall]

First game of round 8 noble's club, 14 downloads, one poster. Something's up with the map.

Spoiler :

Not much to report due to the isolated start I think. I was going to post my game at 1AD, but it would have been fairly bland. I've now played up to getting Optics and meeting the other Civs. The other landmass looks like chaos in my game. I'm only playing on Monarch tho

 

[soundjata]

T88

Spoiler :

Played with weak barbarians (no added tech) so no problem fogbusting the island

Ready to unlock the power of Monarchy

No camp no fishing boat
Writing after priesthood ; BW after writing.
Sury is hacking the production of workers and libraries anyways.
Library before granary in cities 2, 3 and 4.

We did not go for the unfair advantage of oasis or plain hill forest in the cap BFC
...but for the shiny bureau cap instead

Slavery + hereditary rule next turn.

workers are chopping magic Sury TM near city #6

Edit: I will WANT to settle city 7 by some furs/fants but SHOULD I?

 

[sampsa]

@soundjata

Spoiler :

I think monarchy is a very good call, I just got into heaps of trouble trying to skip it.

 

[soundjata]

@sampsa

Spoiler :

Yes monarchy is the bread and butter of iso. Few deviations really.

Also one should not fall into the "food trap" aka fish, or the "hammer trap" like you mentioned (unfocused research path leading to economical stagnation)

 

[Build2Much]

I went 1E…I think it wound up being better for me than SIP but I think there were lots of good starting spots depending on what you wanted to do. Cultural Victory in 1941.

Spoiler :

Island was easy to fog bust, I wound up w/Pyramids and Hanging Gardens in capital as planned, also got GLH - extra hills/forest from moving east was a big help. Eventually Libbed Steel. Did not press my advantage however and it almost cost me. Settled 5 cities on island up north and got a city on island NE as well. Built way too much stuff and wound up going corporations because I was too slow building my military. Creative Construction and Sid’s carried me over the line but just 8 turns ahead of Willem. Had to defend myself a couple of times but the attacks were very weak and mostly handled on the sea.

I will play this map again, but far more aggressively - I need to get out of my cultural win phase

 

[Build2Much]

Sure it's high, but under 10. By 1AD you'd like to be way past size 10 with this location.

Spoiler :

If anyone has been able to get bigger than 10 by 1AD on this map, I need to see it! I went Mids / Rep - no way to get big like that without HR warrior spam and lots of farming imo. Even moving 1 E and picking up the rice, I almost never used it in my capital because it was needed in another city.