Nobles' Club 369: Huayna Capac of the Incas

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Huayna Quechua of Inca, whom we last played in NC 318. The Incans start with Agriculture and Mysticism.

• Traits: Huayna is Financial and Industrious. Financial adds +1 to any tile that already produces at least 2. Industrious gives a +50% bonus to all Wonders (World and National), and gives a +100% bonus to Forges.
• The UB: The Terrace, a Granary with +2. Half of the creative trait on the most powerful building in the game, unlocked within a minimum of two techs. Makes starting with Mysticism that much more of a waste unless you end up next to an actual Creative leader who's culture you need to push back. Except...
• The UU: The Quechua, a Warrior with +100% vs. Archery units and a free Combat I promotion. I'd say "nice barb protection", but rest assured that's not what most Deity players use these guys for. In addition these guys directly upgrade into Maceman, meaning you can build them as cheap military police for much longer than regular Warriors.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Pangaea, Tropical climate, Medium sealevel.

Spoiler edits :

Strategic resource swaps, the usual.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 369 Huayna Capac Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

So, fun fact: I was thinking of maybe putting HC into a different situation than "here's what a Quechua rush looks like" given that's basically every HC NC, but I was willing to indulge the game if it really wanted to Quechua rush.

This is the literal first map I rolled.

You know the phrase "play the map, not the leader"? I think this is one instance where Civ IV wants you to do both .

(Settler on the marble, obviously. Even if you don't Q rush a 3 capitol is more than worth the loss of one turn and a few river tiles, IMO)

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Maybe all the nearby leaders have early unique units that stop a quechua rush? Troll the map.

 

[Build2Much]

I have played this game for a long time, but I really haven’t used HC very often. General strategy question given what we can see in this screenshot - I will probably play at emperor, but maybe this is my game to step up to immortal!


I assume the meta option is to settle the marble. Is the build queue option to maximize HC to just pump out Q’s until you have teched AH, Mining, BW, assuming you find a target you can reach quickly? (Meaning no worker until you attack someone).

 

[jorissimo]

I have played this game for a long time, but I really haven’t used HC very often. General strategy question given what we can see in this screenshot - I will probably play at emperor, but maybe this is my game to step up to immortal!


I assume the meta option is to settle the marble. Is the build queue option to maximize HC to just pump out Q’s until you have teched AH, Mining, BW, assuming you find a target you can reach quickly? (Meaning no worker until you attack someone).

If you're an emperor player you can definitely handle this on immortal (speaking from experience). There's an Absolute Zero video where he does a Q rush that involves building the Oracle and ignoring most worker techs for a while. This start seems perfect for that.

 

[a pen-dragon]

I am not an expert on Quechua-rushing. That said here is my opinion:

Beware of building too many Qs, especially with this start. Unless an AI has a city on a hill, about 2 per archer are sufficient. That means that in most cases a stack of 8 does the job against an unprepared AI. Scout your target!

On Deity you have free unit support for 4 units (more on lower difficulties), more than that costs a lot in the early game. Here you can grow to size 2 on the floodplain and then switch to working the PH, along with the cow. That gives 7 /turn, meaning about one Q every 2 turns. Waiting to have teched AH, Mining, Bronze will take you a bit more than 30 turns at 10 /turn . By that point you will have 10+ Qs and your econ will suffer, delaying the techs even more. Maximizing production is the way to go, but timing should be dictated by your opponents, not by your tech.

Tech wise I think that AH is not a good choice for a Q rush. You only gave one cow, will possibly delay workers and will need commerce to sustain the early expansion. IMHO TW is very important to grab early due to roads, for commerce and logistics, pottery for cottages (and granaries), BW due to chopping for production and to make space for cottages. AH 'only' helps improve some food resources. Thus I probably would go TW - Pottery - BW.

With settling on the marble the oracle definitely is an option to speed up tech.

If you are willing to take the long-time diplo-hit you can also go and steal workers, getting workers for you and slowing the AI. The downside is that attacked AIs will build more units, so the first target may not be a good one to steal workers from. Also they will hate you.

Additionally, on maps with the default number of players you might end up with few viable early targets.

 

[Build2Much]

Thanks to both @jorissimo and @a pen-dragon - good info!

I skimmed the 1st 30 min of the video you referenced and that makes total sense. Can probably do what he did w/Oracle even better with a bigger reward with this start. Is also a strategy if there isn’t a rush opportunity available.

Also totally understand that AH might not be the play - I was thinking pottery wasn’t necessary until you can clear some forests, but wheel is probably the most important thing if you want an economy following a successful rush, probably should be the priority. And need to shut down Q production at “just enough”.

So reasonable to look at wheel > oracle path vs wheel > BW/Pottery path as both viable options from what we can see?

 

[soundjata]

wow what a start

 

[chinemol]

cheated

Spoiler :

OK, so played a fairly similar start, went for a quechua rush and alexander decided to humble me.
This time, went for a barrack, but forgot the starting techs. My exploring pattern had been awful, had declared prematurely, so decided to replay from start.
2º time:
Settle marble, worker first. Finishes before AH, so prefarm FP Barrack second item to build. Tech AH, wheel. pottery (wasn't going to cottage the FP, but the tech situation after a successful quechua rush isn't good)
while exploring, mansa offered a worker up, so declared and took it. he signed peace without any other incident.
declared o Sule, took out hus second and his holy city capital

With recent experience, good luck and an extra worker, still was able to do a successful quechua rush with no margin: the last quechua I had built was the one that captured Istambul

cheated again...

Spoiler :

savescumed a couple times:
mansa won't settle past my borders, they'll expand in just two turns and be contiguous
fred is plotting, surely that's not on me
other than that, the usual missclicks and autopilot poor choices

mids and great library on the plus side. working on a MoM. got parthenon by mistake, but that's alright
nice map, still got a lot to correct on my games

 

[Build2Much]

HC is truly OP, especially on this map. 1310 domination, new personal best score first time playing immortal! I would not be surprised if some are able to win this at a much earlier date than I did, the momentum from a good start is just overwhelming.

Spoiler :

I think I got lucky, but I was able to go right through the Ottomans, still had 6 Qs with 2 more on the road so I just kept going and took out Willem as well. After that, just maintaining peace with my neighbors until I could destroy them with knights and cuirs.

Edit: Ottomans fell in 2680BC, Dutch 2240. I wound up going Mining> Masonry> Wheel> Polytheism> Priesthood and delayed the Oracle until I could take Metal Casting. I’m sure it is possible to do better but I built SH, TGW, Mids just because I could before finishing Oracle. Captured workers could only build roads, farms, mines, but Really didn’t need anything else with that start.

 

[Izuul]

Hmm, where could i possibly settle here?

 

[Fippy]

I just know that your last post was 1.5 years ago..don't disappear on us like that

 

[Izuul]

Spoiler :

Jungle grew on my pigs around T10. 0/10 don't understand how anyone plays this game.

 

[Fish Man]

You're right about one thing, this game is ridiculous.

Spoiler :

Before you ask, yes I admit to playing with reloads. It's more fun for me that way; I'm not pretending this was all done under HoF conditions or anything.

After executing a DOUBLE quecha rush on Suleiman and Willem, I was basically broke but managed to Oracle MC, get mids, and crawl to aesthetics at 20% research.

Spoiler :

Then after getting fed a bunch of techs by a helpful Mansa I libbed communism less than 40 turns later, on t124. That's 225AD communism on deity standard speed, and with a rather cringe capital/rush targets in comparison (cap had a mediocre river and no gems/gold, Istanbal had pretty much no food and Amsterdam as well). I can get a blazing fast science victory now but more exciting is the proof of concept. Honestly Cuzco, Istanbul, and Amsterdam are not really great cities, and the land quality around me is OK at best, but if a well-executed double quecha rush can get me this far on mediocre land, then a sub-t200 science victory on deity standard speed may be very very possible.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Jungle grew on my pigs around T10. 0/10 don't understand how anyone plays this game.

 

[ariosto]

For those who like this quechua rush setting - there was similar game two years ago (even more busted probably, I haven't looked at this one yet though).
NC 318

 

[jorissimo]

For those who like this quechua rush setting - there was similar game two years ago (even more busted probably, I haven't looked at this one yet though).
NC 318

Yep, this was my first quechua rush on immortal. Managed to take out 2 AIs off the bat and won 1420 conquest.

 

[skarpa]

This is my first go at NC game. I'm fairly new to Monarch level. I usually play Pericles cos I love the easy GPs and border pops plus cheap libraries and unis seems a nice combo, not to mention happiness from cheap SB Odeon and later cheap theatres. I also think phalanx are pretty good, axemen without the crippling weakness against chariots. I've only played HC once trying a Q rush vs Gandhi where I lost 8 in a row to an archer and gave up. Let's see how I get on without my usual crutches.

Spoiler :

Here I am at turn 50

Started with Q onto marble which revealed piggies. Settled on marble next turn. I don't normally but recently read a thread mentioning the benefits of settling on gold. A 3 hammer capital seemed a good idea especially if I wanted to Q rush. My Q scouted anti clockwise moving towards the corn because I thought second city would prob be wanting food. I did see the plains hills to west and wondered if gold there but food seemed more important. My circuit round my capital grabbed some nice gold from huts (another crutch I know) but I like the unpredictability of huts and events and want to enjoy them cos I'll prob have to switch them off as I go up levels. Bumped into Musa, Sulie and finally Will but didn't see where any had come from until I finally scouted west and saw Sulie's border around turn 15.

Up to this point I had no idea I would be able to Q rush. In my city I started with a worker and teched AH. Worker would come out a couple turns before AH so I switched to a Q for a turn so worker would be on pigs ready when AH and wouldn't waste a turn. Didn't think there was time to farm FP. I was uncertain what to tech next but started mining as I knew I'd need BW to chop and slavery too. I think I finished the Q and then built more Qs and one more worker as the city grew to happy cap. I decided BW was too far away and my worker(s) would end up idle so I teched TW after Mining thinking if I was to rush Sulie I'd better have roads for the second wave of Qs even if they'd take too long for the first wave.

Declared on Sulie when I had 7 Q ready to go it. Would have been nice to scout but without writing couldn't without DoW and didn't want to alert him. I was delighted to find he only had 1 archer in Istambul though another arrived in time for my assault. Think I lost 4 Q taking Istambul. I left one in the city and pushed the other two out W and S to try to find his other city. Once found I attacked with only 2 Qs but as there was only one archer I lost one but took Edirne anyway. I might not have razed it as the location is good but it was only pop 1 so got destroyed anyway. That took me to the borders of Will.

Unit cost was starting to bite by the time I took Istambul and Cuz is at happy cap so I wound down Q prod and switched to a settler whcih I've settled 3rd tile NW of Cuz. Might have gone one further W if I was Pericles to get stone and save a river grass tile but where I chose I can share more cottages with Cuz.

I've told the tech to beeline CS, I'll try for Oracle when it comes available and tech CoL or CS depending on date. It's started me on writing which is OK as I may OB with Will to scout before attacking. I have 4 Q on his border and another 2 coming via road but there's one being built at Tiw. Perhaps I should switch back to a Q at Istambul and poss Cuz too which is on a worker for now as dev seems important as I can now chop and build cottages - I have 3 workers but 2 are roading ATM. I'd rather build more workers than Q but eliminating Will is more important? I may shift my cap to Ist as it's more central if I get any city from Will and has 2 gold mines so may be a better beureau capital.

I think i've made a decent start

 

[a pen-dragon]

@skarpa
Consider using the SPOILER BB code instead of the ISPOILER one. Especially if what you want to spoiler is more than a line it makes the posts more readable.

Spoiler Concerning the game :

This looks OK, but you need to chop. For instance, getting the terrace in Istanbul 10T earlier by chopping two forests is a huge advantage, allowing you to grow earlier. Also you might want to consider continueing your rush through Willem, if he is not ready. Eliminating an AI before it gets rolling is huge. Especially someone like Willem, who is very good at teching while at peace.

Before a Q rush you can use a few of them to scout your target, revealing any cities they may have and providing information on what resources there are. You do not need open borders. a few Qs around the borders provide plenty of information.

Tech wise, I think that it is a bit early to beeline CS, Aesteics and Lit could provide a nice boost, if you have time for wonders.

Istanbul as capital is probably a bad idea, due to it having low food. IMHO it is much more suited to be a production city than a commerce city, despite having two golds. Cottages compete with farming for food.

 

[skarpa]

Ta @a pen-dragon - I was feeling pleased with myself for getting the spoiler thing to work at all. It's a long time since I coded anything and my post had been up 30 mins before I realised that it needs to be split with first SPOILER opening the section and second one closing it - doh! I'll see what I can edit

 

[jorissimo]

This is my first go at NC game. I'm fairly new to Monarch level. I usually play Pericles cos I love the easy GPs and border pops plus cheap libraries and unis seems a nice combo, not to mention happiness from cheap SB Odeon and later cheap theatres. I also think phalanx are pretty good, axemen without the crippling weakness against chariots. I've only played HC once trying a Q rush vs Gandhi where I lost 8 in a row to an archer and gave up. Let's see how I get on without my usual crutches.



View attachment 712109

Here I am at turn 50

Started with Q onto marble which revealed piggies. Settled on marble next turn. I don't normally but recently read a thread mentioning the benefits of settling on gold. A 3 hammer capital seemed a good idea especially if I wanted to Q rush. My Q scouted anti clockwise moving towards the corn because I thought second city would prob be wanting food. I did see the plains hills to west and wondered if gold there but food seemed more important. My circuit round my capital grabbed some nice gold from huts (another crutch I know) but I like the unpredictability of huts and events and want to enjoy them cos I'll prob have to switch them off as I go up levels. Bumped into Musa, Sulie and finally Will but didn't see where any had come from until I finally scouted west and saw Sulie's border around turn 15.

Up to this point I had no idea I would be able to Q rush. In my city I started with a worker and teched AH. Worker would come out a couple turns before AH so I switched to a Q for a turn so worker would be on pigs ready when AH and wouldn't waste a turn. Didn't think there was time to farm FP. I was uncertain what to tech next but started mining as I knew I'd need BW to chop and slavery too. I think I finished the Q and then built more Qs and one more worker as the city grew to happy cap. I decided BW was too far away and my worker(s) would end up idle so I teched TW after Mining thinking if I was to rush Sulie I'd better have roads for the second wave of Qs even if they'd take too long for the first wave.

Declared on Sulie when I had 7 Q ready to go it. Would have been nice to scout but without writing couldn't without DoW and didn't want to alert him. I was delighted to find he only had 1 archer in Istambul though another arrived in time for my assault. Think I lost 4 Q taking Istambul. I left one in the city and pushed the other two out W and S to try to find his other city. Once found I attacked with only 2 Qs but as there was only one archer I lost one but took Edirne anyway. I might not have razed it as the location is good but it was only pop 1 so got destroyed anyway. That took me to the borders of Will.

Unit cost was starting to bite by the time I took Istambul and Cuz is at happy cap so I wound down Q prod and switched to a settler whcih I've settled 3rd tile NW of Cuz. Might have gone one further W if I was Pericles to get stone and save a river grass tile but where I chose I can share more cottages with Cuz.

I've told the tech to beeline CS, I'll try for Oracle when it comes available and tech CoL or CS depending on date. It's started me on writing which is OK as I may OB with Will to scout before attacking. I have 4 Q on his border and another 2 coming via road but there's one being built at Tiw. Perhaps I should switch back to a Q at Istambul and poss Cuz too which is on a worker for now as dev seems important as I can now chop and build cottages - I have 3 workers but 2 are roading ATM. I'd rather build more workers than Q but eliminating Will is more important? I may shift my cap to Ist as it's more central if I get any city from Will and has 2 gold mines so may be a better beureau capital.

I think i've made a decent start

Spoiler :

I think you're overcomplicating things a little. You're not really supposed to build anything before the Qs. Just settle on marble, work a 3 hammer tile and pump. You'll steal workers on your conquests. Worker techs can wait but the wheel is quite important to get at some point. In this respect the strategy of Q rushes is very different from that of regular games.