Nobles' Club 369: Huayna Capac of the Incas

[skarpa]

Thanks for the input guys

Yes, chopping now very much under way. Maybe sooner if I'd skipped AH and not diverted to WH but I didn't want to pre-empt having an actual target to rush - I knew it'd be possible cos I'd skimmed the thread but I felt it a bit gamey to go for Q straight away when I hadn't seen my target. I also first met Musa whose Skirmishers don't look all that rushable which flung a little more doubt my way. Anyway up to turn 75

Spoiler :

Once I had Writing I OB with Will, soon saw Amsterdam and decided to go for it ASAP with whatever I had. Had 6 Q in the end and lost another 4 I think. I'd switched out prod to Q at turn 51 so I had some more coming and pushing on to Utrecht seemed a good idea. He wasted his archer and warrior attacking my Q in the woods so it fell pretty easily. I was relieved to be at land's end too. I don't need yet another open border to fog bust - not when I wasn't FBing my others. I beelined priest hood but forgot I'd want masonry to help build oracle so diverted 2 turns to tech that. Oracle was now underway but so quick it'd be finished before CoL was teched. I already had Cuz running 2 boffins but it was still a little difficult to slow Oracle enough. I stopped to rush a Q as well. Probably unnecessary but I'd moved the garrison out to bait a barb warrior into attacking it in the woods and didn't want to risk AI getting lucky. I timed it nicely and I now have CS before 1000bc but was nervous I'd lose the race to the Oracle because of the hold up. I've revolted into bureau. Point taken about Istambul being short of food for a capital. I thought I could farm 4 grass when I got irrigation but I've decided to cottage instead. Besides Ist is unlikely to remain at the centre given I only have E and N as my major direction for expansion.

Tiw spent a few turns and a chop or two on the Mids but I've now transferred it to Ist. Seems cheezy once again to go for mids but there's a lot of chop available, early rep means I can avoid Mon and the fail gold would be just fine too. The odd GE may be handy too. Tiw is now on a CH. Utrecht and Amster are building terraces and I'll start to whip workers once finished. Cuz is on a settler.

I'm not too keen to crash my econ any further but with a border pop spot Z would access sugar, stone for mids and banana. Sure two are dependent on IW and Cal so it's maybe a bit too long term for now. Stone would be nice though. A terrace could be chopped easily enough. There's a plethora of good spots inside my empire too with either or both of the X spots closing up the gap nicely. I'm stuck FB there otherwise I think.

I met Justin just before I was about to convert to Jud which has made me hold back and I was moving my Confu missionary to a Q to go off an evangelise somewhere when I bumped into Fred. He has no rel so perfect to spread Confu to him and have both Musa and Justine hate him. I can then pick to be friends with musa or fred or maybe Justin if he pulls his finger out and spreads Bud to me. Fred looks very much like my next victim. If he has metal I guess my Q will be obsolete but someone mentioned they upgrade to macemen and metalworking and machinery are not so far away. 1ad Macemen should walk all over him.

RIght now I have a GS 3 turns away. Usually I'll bulb Phil for a headstart in the Lib race but with Mach meaning I can't bulb Lib with another GS maybe an academy is a better bet? I'm teching Alpha because i think that bulbing would be waste. I need currency too I think and Alpha will help that. After that I can think whether to go for MC and Mach or divert to Cal first.

I did wonder if Just and Fred have been there all along or have spawned recently cos I've killed two AI already. Can the game do this?

Ta for reading

 

[a pen-dragon]

@skarpa

Spoiler :

I did wonder if Just and Fred have been there all along or have spawned recently cos I've killed two AI already. Can the game do this?

This game does not do this. They have been there all along.

IMO bulbing Philo is the best play here. An academy takes a lot of time to get the same amount of the bulb provides, and in this game the early advantage snowballs. Maybe you will not be able to bulb Lib, but that has little influence here. Even if you do not go for Lib at all Philo is good for trades. If you go for Lib anyway it speeds things up, becomeing even better.

At this point my priority would be to fill out the land. There are lots of good spots to get. Being Financial, and able to build cottages, supporting this expansion should not be a problem.

 

[jorissimo]

This game does not do this. They have been there all along.

I remember from ages ago that there was a mod that did this, it was kinda neat.

 

[skarpa]

Thanks I suspected it didn't spawn new AIs but with Fred being so close i kinda wondered.

Turn 100

Spoiler :

Well, I'm not very familiar with FIN trait except for a few games a while back with Will, my econ certainly felt wrecked with 40% top average on the tech slider. I know it ain't everything but I'm still hooked on running it 100% more often than not. Cottages are definitely needed and I've spent these 25 turns cottaging where I can, building courts where I can, chopping everywhere and researching Alpha, Curr and Cal. No settling but my average slider is now 70% and I think it's time to get more cities out there. Number one will be Z which has been held up as I had no cal until recently but there's a settler ready and I am now boardering Musa so a city to my south to claim the silver and block him are my priorities. I did consider taking Bulgar which has nice land but my Q only have 2% base chance and gave up massing them when I realised. FB has been their main task with a wee bit of exploration. I felt with unit costs and supply I couldn't really afford any more units until now.

I gave Fred confu but held off taking a religion for myself. I chopped out the pyramids and finally got the stone online after a boarder pop just in time for the last chop. I revolted into Rep and set about growing my cities again, though they've been chopped back again now. I've backfilled tech by trading with Fred. He is now pleased with me. He's a bit stingy and slower than the others but I did not want to upset either until they've firmly settled into hating each other. Justin is now plotting. I can hope it is Musa. I think Musa is a better target for me too as he is closer to Cuz. As a bonus I'll complete a greed quest if I grab the iron he's settled Gao on.

I chose to skip Phil for now for a Academy which seemed better in the long run. I kept the boffins running and I'm 75% likely to spawn a GS in 5 turns, so Phil then maybe. I may end up with a great proph so I can build the religious wonder for the gold from spreading one of my 2 or 3 religions around (I hadn't noticed but Will founded Hinduism!) Perhaps both Musa and Justin tried for buddhism and Musa missed out.

I'm about to tech HBR. I've decided that MC and Mach were too far away whereas HAs and a Elepult rush were much quicker. I'm about to start making HAs to first storm that barb city and then go after Musa with added phants and cats. Musa has been slow teching like the others so I'm fairly sure if I can attack within the next 25 turns he won't have anything that can stop me.

 

[skarpa]

I remember from ages ago that there was a mod that did this, it was kinda neat.

and very annoying for anyone thinking they've got land to themselves after an early rush

 

[jorissimo]

Thanks I suspected it didn't spawn new AIs but with Fred being so close i kinda wondered.

Turn 100

Spoiler :

View attachment 712130

Well, I'm not very familiar with FIN trait except for a few games a while back with Will, my econ certainly felt wrecked with 40% top average on the tech slider. I know it ain't everything but I'm still hooked on running it 100% more often than not. Cottages are definitely needed and I've spent these 25 turns cottaging where I can, building courts where I can, chopping everywhere and researching Alpha, Curr and Cal. No settling but my average slider is now 70% and I think it's time to get more cities out there. Number one will be Z which has been held up as I had no cal until recently but there's a settler ready and I am now boardering Musa so a city to my south to claim the silver and block him are my priorities. I did consider taking Bulgar which has nice land but my Q only have 2% base chance and gave up massing them when I realised. FB has been their main task with a wee bit of exploration. I felt with unit costs and supply I couldn't really afford any more units until now.

I gave Fred confu but held off taking a religion for myself. I chopped out the pyramids and finally got the stone online after a boarder pop just in time for the last chop. I revolted into Rep and set about growing my cities again, though they've been chopped back again now. I've backfilled tech by trading with Fred. He is now pleased with me. He's a bit stingy and slower than the others but I did not want to upset either until they've firmly settled into hating each other. Justin is now plotting. I can hope it is Musa. I think Musa is a better target for me too as he is closer to Cuz. As a bonus I'll complete a greed quest if I grab the iron he's settled Gao on.

I chose to skip Phil for now for a Academy which seemed better in the long run. I kept the boffins running and I'm 75% likely to spawn a GS in 5 turns, so Phil then maybe. I may end up with a great proph so I can build the religious wonder for the gold from spreading one of my 2 or 3 religions around (I hadn't noticed but Will founded Hinduism!) Perhaps both Musa and Justin tried for buddhism and Musa missed out.

I'm about to tech HBR. I've decided that MC and Mach were too far away whereas HAs and a Elepult rush were much quicker. I'm about to start making HAs to first storm that barb city and then go after Musa with added phants and cats. Musa has been slow teching like the others so I'm fairly sure if I can attack within the next 25 turns he won't have anything that can stop me.

Spoiler :

Honestly, I would just back settle, see how many cities I can get, and then decide on a course of action for the rest of the game. Going HAs and elephants now will crash your economy and slow you down in the long run. Now is rebuilding time.

 

[a pen-dragon]

my econ certainly felt wrecked with 40% top average on the tech slider.

Spoiler :

Frankly I think you are too worried about your economy. Having the research slider at 0% is not inherently bad. The reason why your research is low is important. Sometimes it may be due to bad management, but in other circumstances it may be an investment.

If you do not need new techs immediately it is better to settle any good cities ASAP (and build a sufficient number of workers. Cities without workers are bad.). Only for mediocre cities you need to worry about whether they will add a benefit to your empire. The basic idea is that a city that has been founded earlier will have had more time to develop, speeding up your further progression.

This will slow down your teching in the short term, but quickly pay back.

In your T100 there are 9 spots I would try to grab ASAP.

Btw, you seem low on workers. You have many forests waiting to be choped into workers/settlers and maybe the odd wonder.

 

[skarpa]

Thank you all for the continued advice, I've been playing on but I'm definitely going back to turn 50 or 75 to try to implement it once I start to become dissatisfied with how far I've got. By playing on I'll be able to make a comparison. I know you are both far better players than I.

Yes, I messed up Istanbul a bit, forgot it'd was stagnant and only just now am I irrigating the wheat. I'm a bit addicted to a tech lead so it's hard to let go of working gold. Back when I started playing I'd expand quickly have a complete crash by 1AD and take until about 1000AD to pick up again. I try very hard not to do that again. I also worry that I'll get (more) bad habits when I go up levels and cities cost more. Still I'm keen to try not stopping expansion when I replay this map.

I've had have more workers than cities since almost the start but I often team them up so they appear fewer on the screen shot. I'm up to 9 cities now and still have 10 workers and haven't built one for a while. All new cities build one, not usually straight away if other workers are available but def after courthouse and granary. I know I never have enough! i sure need more now.

Spoiler :

Turn 125

I restarted settling after turn 100 and am now up to 9 with 10th coming next turn - that'll cost 15 gold. This map I've been spoiled for choice re locations and felt urgent, especially knowing I'd pretty much sealed off a bunch of locations. Musa did beat me to a couple I'd have liked but my feeling is he can pay for them now and I'll take them later when they are worth something. Against advice I have been building my army, 4 HA, 5 phants and 1 cat so far with 2 phants and 2 cats in production and more to follow asap. I'll attack in the next 25 turns - a HA has just gone to scout his main territory and I'll head straight for his capital taking as few cities as possible as I go. I think his expansion will count against him as he's now spread out his army even more. I think he's a long way from feudalism unless unless he skips Curr, Cal, CS, Aes and HBR to get there. I don't think a few LBs will stop elepults. I won't be looking to vassal him, I don't have feudalism yet anyway

With happy cap in mind I priorised happy resources and now have another 2 online. Silver to come. Tech path has been to head towards cuirassiers - I'd forgotten Phil is necessry for Nat and bulbed it when the GS spawned. I teched MC for forges and have ignore Mach for now and then went for music. I've now a GA for a GAge and MoM to make it last an extra 4 turns. It's prob time to go for it once the new cities are a little more established.

On the international scene Brennus has finally made an appearance. Dunno why it's taken him so long. Justin has stopped plotting. Musa demanded 150 gold off me and got it. I took it back by trading CoL (i think) for it and took the -1 hit from Justin for trading with his worse enemy.

 

[skarpa]

well I've pushed on and have made progress but am starting to wonder if I should have done better which is where I want to be when replaying a map. I don't think I built a worker or settler in Cuz after bureau but sometimes I forget and sometimes I'm just desperate. I play but I've a certain amount of brain fog from illness so I know I'm not always gonna be optimal. Still here I am at turn 150

Spoiler :

I went to war a few turn later than I'd have liked. Amster was my best prod city but it's so far from the front a lot of stuff was in transit. Still a reccy with my HA showed Musa was totally feeble and his cap was only 1 city away to make it even easier. My spies told me he was teching feud so I wanted to go before he could produce a ton of LBs. I converted to Buddhism and then took Org religion after I Dowed. I only had buddhism in Bulgar but wanted brownie points from Brennus and Justin. Fred gave me a minus but i don't think he really cares. I got another black mark from a wedding but he's still pleased, as are Justin and B too now. I forgot to take my GAge though so I lost a couple of turns to anarchy.

Resistance stiffened on the third city - Djenne as he got an LB in there in time but I had just enough troops to grab it in one turn. There was a quest to capture Gao and I'd been awarded 4 swordsman for it - not worth it but a nice bonus and helped here. I pushed on up the coast leaving Walata as pretty worthless. My army is kinda spent now but he's down to 3 cities and I still have troops coming. I'm wondering if anyone will vassal Musa if I make peace for 10 turns - he's offering Feud. Justin can but doesn't like him. No one else can I think.

I've had a spot of bother with a barb swordsman popping up somewhere I thought one couldn't which cost me a settler

and a barb city too where I thought would be thoroughly FB'ed. Quite how I dunno. The Qs were there all the time

I settled a bit further N to get the cow but i think that's my only settlement. I was one turn too late to settle nr where Essen is now and I've suffered a little in the culture wars with existing cities up there but once terraces are up I should be fine. If not Fred is on the 'to kill' list anyway

Tech wise edu is not far away. I may still bulb lib if a GS spawns in 7 turns time but really I'm after Mil Trad and Gunpowder. I'm a little disappointed not to be nearer, the rate is good when I can tech but my econ is still too weak to tech most turns. I seem never to be ready to cuiraisser rush until about 1200 almost no matter what I do. This game seems to be going the same way. Still I haven't usually killed two AIs by now and be on the verge of killing a third. Even if 1200 before I can tackle Fred and the others I think I'll be unstoppable with over 20 cities.

 

[AcaMetis]

and a barb city too where I thought would be thoroughly FB'ed. Quite how I dunno. The Qs were there all the time

Fogbusting prevents barbarian units from spawning in a 5x5 area centred around a unit. Barbarian cities are not prevented from spawning within that same area, their spawning is instead prevented by making sure a given tile has visibility. Since neither Q had vision on the barbarian city tile (and the other conditions for spawning a barb city were met) the city was able to spawn there, even though the tile couldn't have barbarian units spawn there.

 

[Kernigh]

I'm at Emperor difficulty and turned on Always Peace. My game will be different, with no wars against other civs; but I will still fight barbarians. I might put my 1st city on the marble and my 2nd city on the river to the west, so my plan is to move my Quecha 1SW to begin mapping the river, then move my Settler 1E onto the marble.

I played long enough to settle a few cities.

Spoiler Emperor, Always Peace, 1200BC T70 :

• 3960BC T1. Settle Lima on the marble. I see a pig! Begin to build a Worker and research Animal Husbandry (for cow and pig). My Worker will make a cow pasture, a pig pasture, and a flood plain farm for Lima.
• 2840BC T29. Settle Arequipa 1N3W of Lima. It is on the river, has a gold and 2 flood plains. My Worker will make a gold mine, then chop the forest 2N2W of Lima, so my next Settler can walk from 1N1W to 3N3W.
• 2440BC T39. Revolt to adopt Slavery. I met 5 other civs; 4 of the 5 adopted Slavery before me. I haven't met a 6th other civ.
• 2400BC T40. Settle Trujillo 4N4W of Lima. It is on the river, can share the gold and a flood plain with Arequipa, adds a horse, and will add stone after it expands borders. Stone, along with marble and Huayna Capac's Industrious trait, will be good for building wonders. Trujillo is connected via Arequipa to Lima with river tiles inside my borders. My pathetic civ knows neither Sailing (for river tiles outside my borders) nor the Wheel (for roads).

I aim for The Oracle with my marble. My research path is Animal Husbandry, Mining, Bronze Working (to chop forests), Masonry (to access my marble), Meditation, Priesthood (for The Oracle), Writing.

• 1840BC T54. At end of turn, I complete The Oracle in Trujillo and also learn Writing. Because I know Writing, I pick Code of Laws as my free tech. I had delayed a forest chop (and The Oracle) by 1 turn to finish Writing.
• 1800BC T55. As I watch the video of The Oracle, I see that Trujillo is also the Confucian holy city. Then I hear the bell for Code of Laws, before I watch the video for, "You have founded Confucianism". (Justinian I founded Buddhism in 3720 BC. Brennus founded Hinduism in 3640 BC. I make Confucianism in 1800BC. Willem van Oranje will make Judaism in 1760 BC. Judaism is the 3rd religion in most games but the 4th religion here.) Also in T55, I notice that Suleiman can trade techs. I give Meditation, take The Wheel.
• 1760BC T56. At beginning of turn, Trujillo expands borders and annexes the stone. All 4 of my Workers immediately begin a stone quarry. I built a Monument 8 turns ago. Trujillo now has 21 city culture = 8 from Monument + 8 from Oracle + 5 from holy city. If it wasn't the holy city, I would have needed the Monument to reach 10 city culture and the stone. Also in T56, I give Priesthood and Masonry to Suleiman, take Pottery and Hunting.
• 1680BC T58. I export my horse to Willem van Oranje and import his cow. I might not need a horse in an Always Peace game.
• 1600BC T60. Settle my 4th city Chiclayo 4N5E of Lima, by the ocean and just outside the border with Mansa Musa's Mali. It has 3 flood plains and will add incense when borders expand.
• 1240BC T69. At end of turn, I complete The Pyramids in my capital Lima. The stone went from the quarry by road to Trujillo, then upriver past Arequipa to Lima.
• 1200BC T70. Revolt to adopt Representation (unlocked by The Pyramids).

I now have 4 cities, 3 animal pastures, 1 gold mine, and 1 stone quarry. I have no cottages; my commerce comes from rivers and the gold mine. If there was no gold, I would have been slow to learn Bronze Working and begin chopping forests. I have 5 Workers. 3 of my 6 Quechuas are outside my borders, watching for barbarians. We slew 5 Panthers, 1 Bear, 1 Lion, 1 Wolf, 2 Warriors, and 2 wimpy Archers, but lost 1 Quechua to a Wolf. The screenshot has a barb Warrior 4E of Lima.

Trujillo is building Chichen Itza, a mostly useless wonder, for Great Prophet points. This might be a mistake, if it will delay Settlers, and lose races to settle cities. I am not settling the northern jungle, while I don't know Iron Working; but Mansa Musa might settle the south before I can.

I want to finish Mathematics, learn Civil Service, and adopt Bureaucracy. My other games tend to ignore Bureaucracy and adopt Vassalage. Here, my army will be too small for Vassalage, and I already know Code of Laws, so I can be early to Civil Service.

(Edit: I wrote that, "4 of my 6 Quechas are outside my borders". Only 3 were outside.)

 

[skarpa]

I'm at Emperor difficulty and turned on Always Peace. My game will be different, with no wars against other civs; but I will still fight barbarians. I might put my 1st city on the marble and my 2nd city on the river to the west, so my plan is to move my Quecha 1SW to begin mapping the river, then move my Settler 1E onto the marble.

Interesting strategy, no war and no cottages doesn't really play to Huaya's (overpowered) strengths. You seem to be doing just fine though and beat me to oracle and Mids. How's does econ work with no commerce from cottages?

 

[skarpa]

@BornInCantaloup @AcaMetis thanks for contributions. I got a long way to go before I'm optimising my cities!

Turn 175

Spoiler :

I took two more of Musa's cities and peaced out taking Feud and leaving him with Walata. Fred who'd just teched feud picked him up as a vassal next turn. I dunno if Musa bribed him with tech, a 1 city 2 pop vassal must be pretty worthless? 20+ turns later he's still pop 2 but has just culture bombed to have a couple more poor tiles to work and a handful of other off me which are too far away to be any use. He'll die soon anyway. Brennus and Justin have now picked Fred as their worse enemy so I hope Fred got something out of vassaling him. Justin and Brennus begged tech off me 4-5 turns are are now friendly. I hope to keep 'em so until Fred is dead or safely vassaled.


The rest has been peaceful development of my new conquests plus some settling. I took out the barb city with the Qs and a wee bit of help from a cat, a phant and a swordsman who got himself killed. I've just resettled one tile east to have the copper in the FC. Utrecht is building settlers continous now until every location is settled. I'm up to 22 cities. I've managed to convert 6 to buddhism but since I've prioritised the closest (and therefore smallest) cities to try and produce a domino effect with the newly converted building a missionary to pass it on I've not managed to get it to any major city yet. This is a pity so I may use the next batch of missionaries to try and convert my big three even if i takes them longer to get there. This means I'll have to wait longer before building more unfortunately. I could of course convert to Jud which Musa kindly spread a lot but that'll lose me Justin and Brennus' friendliness.

I teched gunpowder and Compass and used my GS to bulb to 1 turn fo Lib. Completing Lib I took Mil Trad and had cuirassiers by 1060Ad. This is pretty early for me. Tech slider has been off since as I upgrade phants to cuirassiers - there's 18 now and I'm massing them for war with Fred. Berlin is only one conquest away which is just about perfect. War in the next 5 turns I hope, Fred has nothing that can stop me. I'll clear up Musa while I'm at it.

Tiw, thanks to a lot of chopping, finished Taj 2 turns ago kicking off my first GAge. Normally I'd switch to pac and caste to try to spawn as many GP as possible. This time with my cities lacking my religion I've not been able to. Nor have I switched to vass and theocracy (traded) to max out the XP I can put into new cuirassiers - I have 2 great general's settled and triple promoted cuirassiers would be very nice. I hope I can have these by the end of the GAge, but I do have a GA waiting to trigger another if I so wish.

Thinking on it maybe a swift change to Judaism now followed by reversion to Buddhism on the last GAge turn may be the way to go but if I go into Theoc I won't be able to keep converting any cities to Buddh. I need to think on it

 

[Kernigh]

How's does econ work with no commerce from cottages?

It's rivers and Mining resources. Each river tile has 1 commerce. If river tiles connect 2 cities, the trade route has +1 commerce in each city. With Huayna Capac being Financial, a silver mine has 5 commerce, gem mine has 6, gold mine has 7. My Mining resources are just 1 gold mine on a river. It has 8 commerce. I can swap it between my 2nd and 3rd cities, so some citizen is always working it.

I should build some cottages soon. My capital has citizens working forests; I want to move them onto river cottages.

 

[skarpa]

very noticeable this games is how backward the AI has been. I mean I just gave away Cal to one on the mainland who hadn't got there by nearly 1400AD. Clearly they are very reliant on trading amongst themselves and killing just one AI let alone several can have a knock on effect on the others I'd not considered before.

Well here we are turn 200

Spoiler :

As planned I attacked Fred around turn 178, didn't see any need to wait. Took Hamburg with my main force of cuirassiers. A few cats and odd units went to distract at Frankfurt but it was so weakly held they took it anyway. Berlin was easy so I grabbed Cologne and Essen before capping him. Musa actually caused more trouble, killing a couple of cuirassiers before dying for good.

Then I spent a few turns consolidating in peace for before starting a second GAge and attacking Justin who just started that AP nonsense. I'd managed to convert most of my oldest cities to Bud and switched to Pol State, Nat, Caste and Theo. I was worried that Justin who had phracts and phants might be troublesome but I rolled straight over him. I changed theo to pacifism after about 6 turns as I realised Justin wasn't gonna need extra promotions plus Rifling came in around 1360 (earliest yet!) so by the time I was ready to take Constantinople I was upgrading units to them. He wouldn't cap at that point but his counterattack was destroyed and gave up. To keep things neat border-wise I stormed his new capital before accepting his surrender on turn 201 and I got a domination win the next turn. Just before then I started a 3rd GAge and used a GE who'd spawned to build Sistine for the points. Probably one of my earliest finishes.

It's been an enjoyable game with my first successful Q Rush. A win hasn't really been in doubt since I killed Bill but there was still much to do and much to learn. Late spawning barb cities being one and a very late barb warr spawning on a hidden tile within 2 tiles of my culture this session being another. The other lessons I'm hoping to apply when I replay this map.

Thanks for reading any any advice given!

 

[skarpa]

As promised I returned to an earlier save - around turn 70 I think when I was just about to finish the Oracle and claim CS. The idea now is to put into practice the suggestions that were made by @BornInCantaloup @jorissimo and @a pen-dragon and others.

Here I am having done so at turn 100

Spoiler :

Apart from the Oracle I immediately switched all builds everywhere to workers and settlers, prioritising workers. I even stopped the Mids until I could get the Stone online. I was worried I'd miss them cos it's getting a bit late but whatever. The tech slider went down to zero and the GS I bulbed built an academy (it was that or alpha - which I hoped I could trade for later with CoL etc).

I settled 1 North of the Stone first and kept building settlers and workers until I was up to 10 cities, 17 workers and running a small deficit at 0% around 6 turns ago. I still have a settler to use but I figured he should wait for econ to improve a tad. Builds have switched mostly to courts and terraces. I've chopped everything I could, cottaged where ever I could work them and some places I couldn't. I avoided (not 100% successfully) working my gold in favour of growth and cottages.

Once I had the missionary I went and infected Fred with Confu. This worked very well before.

Tech wise it was looking dire until I managed a series of trades with Justin, Musa, and Fred. I figured I would take the hit if someone didn't like me trading with their worse enemy. Anyway I now have everything they've got and still may be able to trade when they have more. I can now get Curr in 2 turns which'll improve my TRs no end.

I just managed to finish the Mids 2 turns ago (phew!) and am about to revolt to Rep. Earlier I revolted to bureau and slavery but have only whipped a couple of times to get workers/settlers out early. I did think about adding OR to my next rev but Jud has only arrived in few cities and I'd rather not give Justin a reason to hate me over Musa.

I'm hopeful econ will improve massively over the next 25 turns as cities and cottages grow. I've just built a couple of axes for Musa deterence as we're are now sharing borders and I've deliberately boxed him in this time. Every unit is costing me now so I'm trying not to build any more for a while.

 

[skarpa]

@a pen-dragon @jorissimo

Those turns were played very fast and dirty without any real plan to settle in any particular order. I'd didn't mean to put out so many workers but I was operating on the premise I never ever have enough and there was always something that wanted doing. Corihuay was a mistake given I didn't even have Fishing or Sail then. Do you mean the city ruins are the better city site? I like em but I thought I could get two cities out of those cows and corn and share tiles with Istambul and Amster. I am still addicted to second ring resources I know, CRE has spoiled me.

The Mids were built in Tiwa. Not 100% sure why - I think it was the amount of chops available plus the poss to have a pure line to a GE sometime. It'd already been started by the save I used and TBH I've not really considered the syncro between bureau and chops in my cap. Until recently bureau was coming so late there prob wasn't much to chop around my cap in the past.

Anyway up to turn 125

Spoiler :

(the cat headbutted my keyboard and hit the enter key before I could get a screen so at the start of turn 126)

As suggested I've concentrated on backfill these turns rather than raising an army. I'm only just starting to build a couple of phants. I hope to get barb city before Justin or Fred. Fred annoyingly beat me to Essen site this game. I didn't think he'd be so quick. 4 more ciries have been settled and a couple more settlers are in the works. As are a couple more workers. Other cities (after Terr and Courts) are on barracks and stables for the military build up.

I've got Musa, Justin and Fred happy by agreeing to begs if they weren't too outrageous. Justin wanted CS!! He got AES instead and went pleased though keeping him sweet isn't my priority. I finished CAL, started MoM in Amster (loads of chops) teched AES, LIT and MUS - I'll want the latter for Mil Trad and grabbing a free GArt for a GAge when MoM is finished seemed wise. Cuzo is 40 turns from a GP, 50/50 GS or GProph. I'd much prefer a GS but wanted to grow Cuzo as advised. A GS will bulb Phil as I'd rather not tech it, a Prophet, I dunno. Keep for GAge or ToS if Musa hasn't got it by the time I beat him up.

It'll probably take the next 20 turns to build an army even with a GAge but I do want to go after Musa as soon as possible. Unit cost are now down to 10 per turn and are much more bearable as my econ improves.

 

[jorissimo]

Spoiler :

Your size 1 cities above should not be building workers. You should either be moving workers from other areas (possibly in advance to, like, clear the jungle on the rice)
Or use already developped cities to build them, if you feel your Empire lacks some. Here, Utrecht and/or Victus would be perfectly suited for the task, instead of building Stables/Barracks that do not provide any immediate benefit.

I'd like to add that you should ideally whip most of your workers and settlers. A city like Vilcas with two food resources is perfect for that, put one turn into a settler and 3-pop whip it, then grow back to size 6 and repeat. For workers you can do the same thing but you don't need as much food, 2-pop whip them after 1 turn in size-4 cities.

 

[skarpa]

Thanks @BornInCantaloup point taken re workers and size one. The coast city 'borrowed' the fish to put out a quick worker. Have to consider too how long it'll take a worker to get there when deciding, I think i decided this was quicker. First cities pretty much have to build a worker first but I understand it's better to start a Gran and whip that asap. Ruins city not quite as good as you think. It can't reach the fish but I need to learn the different circumstances when I want a lot of smaller cities and when I don't. Maintenance is what's held me back from REXing as hard as I could last game so I may well have overdone this one. I find it hard to keep all the variables in this in my head and rely too much on autopilot. You are right about Ica, I was so not ready for it. Hence partly the worker. The settler was intended for where Essen is but I didn't think there was so much of a hurry. When Essen appeared I panicked maybe a little and decided I wanted to make my claims in the jungle asap regardless of cost - I wasn't sure of getting gems elsewhere at that point and also wanted to put extra culture onto Essen. A good city flipped is a cheap win I think. I've literally just lost the gems tile at Ica just as my workers arrived to mine (turn150). Not sure how, maybe a culture bomb somewhere?

I didn't farm the cows BTW but you made me check! I'm quite capable of it...

 

[skarpa]

Spoiler :

I'd like to add that you should ideally whip most of your workers and settlers. A city like Vilcas with two food resources is perfect for that, put one turn into a settler and 3-pop whip it, then grow back to size 6 and repeat. For workers you can do the same thing but you don't need as much food, 2-pop whip them after 1 turn in size-4 cities.

definitely whip em as soon as possible. No point slow building them and holding back the city growth. I don't think I really whipped when I played in the past. Understanding its power has really improved my game in past couple of months. I'm still not very good at it but generally if I see a 2 pop whip on anything I take it and sometimes 1 and 3 but I think a bit more about it.