Nobles' Club 371: Suleiman of the Ottomans

[sampsa]

You will not lose if you build nothing for several turns. Pretty sure I did it for many turns in an Isabella immortal forum game.

 

[jorissimo]

Questions/Answers.

Spoiler :

The empty production queue 'trick' only works for 1 turn. (do it one more turn and you will lose stored hammers)
For example I was 18/50 in one city last turn and proceeded to whip a barracks.
I want to wait the next turn to use the overflow on a catapult (and dont mind losing one or two natural this turn)
In general, I use this trick when a tech comes one turn too late for a city to use its production full potential (see above)
or
When a key resource will be connected next turn (city on stone for pyramids for example)

Tech dates I went hunting > AH > mining > BW > pot > writing > math (trade for IW) > masonry > construction

after pottery, research is halted for many turns. Maintenance has peaked, commerce is scarce and cottages slowly take off.

Barb issues
No issue whatsoever.
Warrior 1 went fogbusting NE following genghis scout apparition.
Warrior 2 went fogbusting west
Warrior 3 went on the pigs and was lucky not to have to fight for the ham.
When I saw Pacal great wall I moved my western fogbuster further west to find a hill to intercept barbs circling this way (but he quickly closed the gap)

In such a close quarter situation on deity, normally barbs are not an issue (contrary to inland sea for example)

Regarding the orphaned cottage @jorissimo , if you look closely you can notice Genghis color. He just captured that barb city, which was fogbusting a lot by itself.

I would like to reproduce your game to see if I can get the stuff out in a similar time frame. However,

Spoiler :

I'm not sure I can afford to ignore archery on Immortal.

 

[soundjata]

I would like to reproduce your game to see if I can get the stuff out in a similar time frame. However,

Spoiler :

I'm not sure I can afford to ignore archery on Immortal.

Spoiler :

Yeah sometimes barbs are easier on deity than immortal. (more cities, more units)
I would still recommend trying to fogbust the starting area with enough warriors (3 to 4) on key locations, which is not too far away from the core. if you settle like I did, Capitol is 2 turn building warriors so you should be fine
Edit: also on immortal, barbs enter borders much later than deity (usually circa T40) so you certainly can take advantage of that
(for the record barbs are allowed to enter the player's border after AIs (or is it AI+player?) have an average of 3 cities each.)

 

[soundjata]

You will not lose if you build nothing for several turns. Pretty sure I did it for many turns in an Isabella immortal forum game.

I stand corrected

 

[AcaMetis]

As far as I know you won't lose any stored overflow if you build nothing, but a city's actual production the turn you produce nothing won't be added to the stored overflow either, so you are losing those hammers to the void generous donations to charity . Basically, if a city is set to produce nothing for one or a few turns, have it work / tiles as much as possible.

 

[jorissimo]

Deity T89

Spoiler :

Keep in the capitol, best visible tile.

Reach size 3 (t29)

Get 5 cities and 5 workers (t63)

City 2 near pigs! (best tile in the Ottoman empire so far)

Beeline construction (t89)

Notice empty production bars for maximum overflow hacking

Infrastructure:

Everybody wants war, it might be dangerous

Spoiler :

There is something intriguing I just noticed in your t63 screenshot, which is that most of your cities aren't connected, and you chose to build cottages before connecting them. Does that give you a higher return on investment?

 

[skarpa]

As far as I know you won't lose any stored overflow if you build nothing, but a city's actual production the turn you produce nothing won't be added to the stored overflow either, so you are losing those hammers to the void generous donations to charity . Basically, if a city is set to produce nothing for one or a few turns, have it work / tiles as much as possible.

I was trying this for a couple turns just now, I definitely didn't see any hammers added to my overflow etc

 

[sampsa]

I was trying this for a couple turns just now, I definitely didn't see any hammers added to my overflow etc

There are no added to your overflow. It's just a way to store the overflow or chops. Built on the turns you build nothing go to... nothing. They are not stored. If they were, this tactic would be very very valuable.

 

[soundjata]

Spoiler :

There is something intriguing I just noticed in your t63 screenshot, which is that most of your cities aren't connected, and you chose to build cottages before connecting them. Does that give you a higher return on investment?

Spoiler :

Yes you are correct.
The route between city 1 and city 2 is worth 2 (+1 in each city)
Then every other route is worth 1 only. A cottage is superior to that (because it grows).
Roading becomes a priority when you need to connect resources, for your own health/joy or for trading.

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

Roads can also be important to speed up unit movement, but in a situation where you're crammed between multiple AIs that becomes much less of a concern (lots of fog busting keeping barbarians to a minimum, and AIs going red fest usually give you some degree of advanced warning before a DoW).

 

[soundjata]

you guys make me wanna write a really long article about worker turns

 

[jorissimo]

you guys make me wanna write a really long article about worker turns

That would be a very welcome addition to the war academy!

 

[jorissimo]

No Oracle. Avoid mining and fishing and go education through religious branch.
Another option is to avoid pottery, but then you need multiple strong sources of commerce and preferably also pyramids.

Sorry guys, just got distracted by this. How did you handle defense without mining, @Whisker ?

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Education is useless. Why bother?

 

[Whisker]

@jorissimo Diplomacy mostly.
The Buddhist block (China, Maya and Inca) were my friends and I was bending backwards to appease Monty. French were of some concern as they were aggressively settling on my face.
Like I said my production was bad, but there were hunting and AH resources and lots of 2H forest to build military police and some defensive units. At BC100 when I was about to discover gunpowder I only had warriors and bunch of archers with some catapults being build.

 

[0urBall]

Played 75 turns:

Spoiler 75 turns in on Monarch :

SIP after moving to reveal the rice, expanded to 3 cities and met all other Civs. About to put down a 4th to claim Iron. I'm torn between going straight after Pacal with Swords or waiting for the inevitable crazy Monty war declaration. If I wait for Monty, then all signs point to an Elepult rush after he exhausts himself. But would appreciate any pointers/advice from the group

Spoiler Another bunch of turns :

So took neither option, as Pacal seemed fairly harmless and Monty went after GK instead Managed to expand to 8 cities, one of which gives a nice little overseas trade route. Some others were barb cities that formed on my western borders. But this has not helped my economy (I can't seem to prevent crashing my economy when playing as an IMP leader ) Lightbulbed Compass from a GS for tradebait, which has helped me keep up with the AI. Stayed in Buddhism to keep Monty/GK happy, which upset Louis. And just as he became my worst enemy, (and I was building up a force to declare on him) HC offered a joint war against Louis So I'm in the process of moving through France, but Louis has just got Feudalism, so we'll see how far I can get before I hit a wall.

 

[Whisker]

Victory on second try. Long wall of text behind the spoiler.

Spoiler Immortal, BC100 - AD1864 diplomatic victory. :

This was second try. I bungled up the first one by being a bit too happy with whip and conscription, leading to undeveloped core that could not sustain all the new cities I conquered. I also ran ragged between DOWing and being DOWed by France and Aztec only for more technologically advanced Mongols to sweep in and collect the spoils at mid 1400.

To the play itself. After discovering Gunpowder BC 75, I spend next ten or so turns whipping Janissaries and pondering if I should attack France who was settling on my face and had most cities at this point or Aztecs who were clearly the bigger immediate threat. Monty jumped the gun for me. AD 150 I found his huge stack of catapults and longbows of all possible things, just one turn away from my border city. I could have fought him and probably win, but it would have been at defensive footing and for not much gain, so I bribed Pacal on him. Giving away my monopoly education was enough for Pacal to declare without me doing so first.

Spend another eight turns building more catapults and Janissaries and declared France on AD 350. Quickly conquered four border cities and two islands. A small defensive pause to heal my units, while dealing with two counter stack by Louis, and healing again.Janissaries were ridicolously strong at this Libbed Nationalism on AD 640 and made peace with Louis on AD 740. Conscripted a bunch more units and continued my war efforts, on AD 880. At some point pretty much everybody had declared war on China and I was asked by Monty to join in on fun AD 960. I had nothing against Mao, we were not neighbors, but I accepted the invitation to appease Monty. I ignored the war with China and continued my efforts against the France, capturing Paris AD 1060 and Marseilles AD 1140, leading to capitulation of France AD 1170.

Next couple of centuries were confusing. I mainly spend it teching and building infrastructure. Others however were busy. War against China ended by Monty capitulating Mao. I totally missed this and only noticed after the fact, when reading event log for this report.Then HC and Pacal made a defensive pact, that actulized only a few turns later when Monty declared Pacal. Some time later Gengis joined in on the fun against Monty and I did the same on AD 1470. Some time before this, Mao broke free from Monty, that's why I nver noticed his short servitude. I again accept war against China when asked by my buddies, but still have no interest of actually doing anything. I captured two minor border cities from Monty, one of them being culture flipped town I had founded. This war short lived as Monty capitulated to Pacal AD 1530, causing me great concern. I had planned on turning on my Southern neighbour, but suddenly the potential frontline was unconfortably long.

While this was going Mao had made peace with HC and Gengis, so now it was Me,Pacal and Monty against the Chinese. Pacal captured couple of Mao*s cities and I started worrying he would snatch an another vassal. I brokered peace between Pacal and Mao in exchange for some gold and then proceeded to conquer two more Chinese cities, at which point Mao vassaled to me, much better.

I was racking my brain on how I could win the game with both H.C. and Pacal way ahead of me technologically, and latter also having Monty on my Eastern flank. I tried the Apostolic palace, but was consistently short on votes. Then on AD 1740 my problems were solved for me, Monty once again declared declared on defensive pact by Pacal and H.C.

WHAT, HOW? Monty had a century earlier broken free from Pacal, but I don't know how that is possible. I know peace vassaling can be broken after ten turns, but Monty was at war with Pacal when he capitulated. Also their power ratio did not really change during those turns, so if somebody can tell me how the mechanics work here, I would greatly appriciate.

Anyway I too declared Monty and quickly vassaled him too. Then I turnde my eyes on Gengis. I had finally teched to assembly line and with cannons and infantry felt confident I could take on gengis, even if he had lots and lots of cavalry. Sigh... only two turns after declaring Gengis also had infantry and what should have been quick route turned into a long and ardous slugfest. I took city after city from Gengis, but he would simply not give up. Then suddenly I was elected U.N. secretary and won the diplomatic victory.

I was hoping for domination or conquest, but was simply relieved as war was so monotonous. And turning against my allies Pacal and H.C. would have been even worse with both of them already having tanks, while my troops were still marching on foot. So quite a nice game.

I have attached the BC 75 save when I reached gunpowder, if someone wants to show how to properly leverage the technology advantage.