Nobles' Club 377: Gandhi of India

[jorissimo]

General question:

Spoiler :

About semi-iso. If Pacal is a leader who will trade techs that 50% of leaders know, then he basically won't trade anything until he gets Optics? Or am I missing something? In that case, is there any use in keeping him around at all?

 

[AcaMetis]

Spoiler :

About semi-iso. If Pacal is a leader who will trade techs that 50% of leaders know, then he basically won't trade anything until he gets Optics? Or am I missing something? In that case, is there any use in keeping him around at all?

Broadly correct, two caveats are that it doesn't apply to techs that don't unlock any units or buildings (so Monarchy and Alphabet) and IIRC it doesn't apply if the AI is Friendly or your Vassal. It also doesn't apply to Mansa Musa, as he'll trade techs that 0% of other leaders know.

There is generally little value in keeping a semi-iso AI alive, unless they're such a harmless cupcake there's zero opportunity cost in taking out an overseas rival first. Spoiler: Pacal is the exact opposite of a harmless cupcake. He can be easy to get to Friendly, between religion and his favorite civic, but his teching is something to be concerned about if he's not your vassal .

 

[chinemol]

Its actually the opposite, with philo you can do things with low food you cant usually do. For example the fact a scientist takes 9 turns instead of 17 meant i could work a 3 food and 2 food tile in a size 4 city while running 2 scientists, slowly starving down from 50%~ food (granary) and get the guy out before i starve down a size. Kinda insanely helpful here.

You can thank a barb galley for putting me in that situation

You are right. In my game the southern riverside pigs did the philo thingy, while cap pumped stuff, then worked cottages, gold and little more. Probably could have done it better, it was a mediocre game

 

[jorissimo]

T109 (Immortal)

Spoiler :

In light of @AcaMetis ' thoughts, I decided to opt for the violent route and took out Pacal. It cost me a few HAs, but the result is nice. I'm teching Monarchy now because we have wine and for HR, and after that I'll head directly for Astro. The priority right now is getting some libraries out for some GP. Depending on how many I can get, I could bulb Optics and Astro. IW is also a huge priority with all of the jungle and that future gem city, and to allow Chichen Itza to breath. Lit would be nice for TGL and Calendar for the sugar and banana, but Lit is risky and I can get enough happiness with Monarchy. 8 cities probably amounts to overexpansion on what is now an isolation map, especially when I settle the gem city, but I think I have the potential for strong long-term development.

And yeah, I realize Chichen Itza needs some worker attention urgently, but I was too focused on the war to realize

 

[Fippy]

@jorissimo

Spoiler :

Cities like Chicken Pizza should be razed -61gpt is wild for Immortal Iso.

 

[jorissimo]

@Fippy

Spoiler :

Hmm yeah I think you're right in hindsight. Should probably delete some units as well. Although they'll come in handy with HR. Do you think it's a lost position?

 

[Henrik75]

Spoiler :

I don't see a need to kill Pacal early, 19 out of 20 games he won't attack you and his land his crap until iron working + calendar, let him develop it for you then take it later with cannons or something when its beautiful. You have tons of land to settle and can use him for trade routes for a better optics date, maybe even a cheeky tech trade or two once you get him to like you. If it was a violent neighbor then totally within reason to rush them early.

Pacal was very violent towards me but im sure he is harmless for everyone else's games.

 

[jorissimo]

@Henrik75

Spoiler :

Yeah, that makes sense. I'm kinda torn now whether to just reload to t46 or whatever my last save was before deciding on the HA rush, or just go with the existing plan and take the challenge of bouncing back from this economic slump. Kinda tempted to do that, but with iso other AIs can just become runaways so easily, like I'm experiencing with that Sury iso game - on Emperor nota bene, and there might not be enough time.

 

[Fippy]

You could play it just for fun
Cottage every river tile and grow grow grow (might as well keep those HAs now yup).
An academy for Delhi before you tech further than Monarchy.
Calendar is usually not great in those situations..2 more techs before Optics.
Bananas & sugar make okay farms (on rivers or lakes) for now, dry they should prolly be ignored.

 

[jorissimo]

You could play it just for fun
Cottage every river tile and grow grow grow (might as well keep those HAs now yup).
An academy for Delhi before you tech further than Monarchy.
Calendar is usually not great in those situations..2 more techs before Optics.
Bananas & sugar make okay farms (on rivers or lakes) for now, dry they should prolly be ignored.

Sounds good! I think I'll actually flick in IW before Monarchy to free up that riverside. But yeah an academy seems important right now and I won't have to worry about not getting enough GS for Astro because Philo.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

@jorissimo

On emperor difficulty, to minimise any problems, I would

Spoiler :

Delay astronomy a little bit. 3 great scientists. 1st for philosophy, found Taoism. Don't research civil service. 2nd and 3rd for astronomy.

After astronomy, take all their cities. You should have enough espionage points to create one or two city revolts, so you don't need to be scared of castles as long as you have catapults.

Yes, build temples in every city because why not.

 

[jorissimo]

@sylvanllewelyn : thanks, it's Immortal though, so not sure if that would change anything?

 

[jorissimo]

1150 AD:

Spoiler :

In the end it wasn't that bad. 1150 AD Astro, pretty late, but the overall tech pace has been glacial so I'm not actually behind in tech and I am actually the GNP front runner by a wide margin. It took ages to get IW, Sailing, and Monarchy. After that my tech slowly picked up. I built an academy in the capital and generated 3 more GS, 2 of which I used for Astro and I have another one sitting around, which I might use for a GA in combination with Caste and Philo once I get those techs. I can get 16 cities on this continent, meaning I can probably tech all the way to tanks and planes before breaking out. Teching Currency right now, after that probably CS or CoL -> CS (I managed to trade for Feudalism so I could skip CoL but it's actually a nice tech).

Edit: I should actually probably go CoL after Currency and mass whip Courthouses into Forges to deal with the terrible maintenance situation. Only after that should I settle all of the settlers I'm building. And I think I'll be able to fit up to 18 cities on the continent, there is just so much food. While growing back, I'll get CS and then Philo and then do a GA to get some GS out for the Lib race. I'm hoping to get Sci Meth out of it.

 

[jorissimo]

1380 AD:

Spoiler :

I made quite a bit of progress this session. Did the GA thing, got 3 GS, 1 for Printing Press, 2 for SciMeth. Result: Libbed Communism in 1370 AD
Now there are some interesting possibilities for tech trades, but the AI asks a lot for techs I can research in 2 turns. My tech and GNP advantage has only increased. I can built 3 more cities on my continent before it's full, and with State Property those are going to be productive. I also need workers because I'll soon start workshopping over all of the small cottages. I'm going Nationalism now to have a shot at the Taj (only Wang has it). I'm also going to start on Oxford next turn, unfortunately my stone trade got cancelled, possibly due to a border change. Then Guilds, Chemistry and then straight for Assembly Line. Gilga looks scary and Wang is a good techer and also has a vassal, but I'm thinking space is looking safe, unless anyone starts going crazy on expansion and intervention is needed.

 

[a pen-dragon]

@jorissimo

Spoiler :

Please do not think I want to dissuade you from going space, but:

I'm thinking space is looking safe

this is a bit dubious. Genghis is likely to throw himself into someone, and that might be you. Even one tech generation behind that can hurt you badly if going for space, especially since Gilga is likely to go for space rather sooner than later. I am much less worried about Wang. Also keep in mind that both Gilga and Wang are still military threats.

Going space will require some diplo management.

 

[jorissimo]

@a pen-dragon :

Spoiler :

I see your point. I could fall back on the old tanks/planes plan. Gilga is only 7 tiles away. So is Wang, but Gilga is more likely to become a problem. Alternatively, if I can get to Combustion in time I could build a fleet and keep them at bay. But that's a big if. Genghis has too little on his hands.

 

[jorissimo]

1600 AD:

Spoiler :

Genghis just got Astro. He has been plotting for quite a while. I initially begged for gold but shouldn't have done that since he didn't have Astro. I should have saved the beg for later. He's stacking mainly in Karakorum, which is in my direction but also in Wang's. There is a smaller stack in Beshbalik. I'm not seeing any stacks in Turfan, which I would expect if he were going for me. His stack looks puny right now, but he's on the Rifling path and can research Mil Trad and when he gets Chemistry and updgrades all of those caravels, things could become more difficult. I have a stack of frigates ready and I'm casually building a few rifles. I'm hoping to get to Assembly Line before he gets Rifling and Chemistry. Also, somebody just surpassed me in GNP by a good margin, probably Wang, but I'm now the manufactured goods leader after the shop and mill revolution. Other than that, the long-term plan is still tanks and planes.

 

[a pen-dragon]

@jorissimo

Spoiler :

While looking for naval invasion preparation do not look for stacks of land units, look for stacks of sea units, as the AI will frequently load all their offensive units into ships as soon as they can.

If that is his main stack he is far from ready.

I should have saved the beg for later.

Here I have to disagree. It is useful to beg as soon as they start plotting, as the plotting is done in two phases. In the first they will cancel their plotting on you if a peace treaty forms (due to begging).

In the second phase they will continue plotting and come after you eventually. Begging in the first phase is much more useful as it allows to avoid a war entirely, whilst begging in the second phase only delays it, and is only useful if you need to build more defenses.

 

[jorissimo]

1848 AD

Spoiler :

It turned out that Genghis was plotting on Wang. It was more of a phoney war in which GK did send (medieval) troops over, but he suicided all of them on WK's rifles right off the boat
I was a little concerned about WK, who was leagues ahead of GK, staging an invasion and capping GK, but in the end they made peace. Nevertheless, I decided to take out GK to prevent him from falling prey to WK or to anyone else in the future and to strengthen my position in the world. My force was a bit exaggerated (I built 56 tanks, 27 fighters, 14 infantry, 11 battleships and the transports and carriers needed to carry them over), but better safe than sorry. I didn't see a single infantry, he was still late Renaissance/early Industrial with cannons and cavalry being his most advanced units. I'm on my way to Computers and nobody else seems close. A lot of the AIs decided to beeline Satellites before Assembly Line, which puzzles me a lot. Aside from me, only Wang has Assembly Line. There might be a window to go head first into Giggles, who still doesn't have Assembly Line, and I could use GK's west coast to stage an invasion on Uruk. However, correct me if I'm wrong but once I get the Internet I don't really see a way to lose this, and I might as well go for Space. Hatty has a shot at Culture, which I may have to do something about with jets. Hatty and Giggles might be going for nukes though... If I dedicate to it, I can be #1 in GNP again and with the Internet I'll get anything they research for free.

Edit: I did some optimizations not reflected in the first screenshot, I'm doing Computers in 3 turns with 2400 bpt and -147 gold.

 

[chinemol]

1848 AD

Spoiler :

It turned out that Genghis was plotting on Wang. It was more of a phoney war in which GK did send (medieval) troops over, but he suicided all of them on WK's rifles right off the boat
I was a little concerned about WK, who was leagues ahead of GK, staging an invasion and capping GK, but in the end they made peace. Nevertheless, I decided to take out GK to prevent him from falling prey to WK or to anyone else in the future and to strengthen my position in the world. My force was a bit exaggerated (I built 56 tanks, 27 fighters, 14 infantry, 11 battleships and the transports and carriers needed to carry them over), but better safe than sorry. I didn't see a single infantry, he was still late Renaissance/early Industrial with cannons and cavalry being his most advanced units. I'm on my way to Computers and nobody else seems close. A lot of the AIs decided to beeline Satellites before Assembly Line, which puzzles me a lot. Aside from me, only Wang has Assembly Line. There might be a window to go head first into Giggles, who still doesn't have Assembly Line, and I could use GK's west coast to stage an invasion on Uruk. However, correct me if I'm wrong but once I get the Internet I don't really see a way to lose this, and I might as well go for Space. Hatty has a shot at Culture, which I may have to do something about with jets. Hatty and Giggles might be going for nukes though... If I dedicate to it, I can be #1 in GNP again and with the Internet I'll get anything they research for free.

Edit: I did some optimizations not reflected in the first screenshot, I'm doing Computers in 3 turns with 2400 bpt and -147 gold.

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Hatty's cultural cities can be razed if she comes close to winning
Wang looks small
Gilga should be pounded hard IMO but I'm biased as he has screwed me a lot of times
Nukes are usually not an issue. AI doesn't build as many as it would need to make a difference
Nice game!