Nobles' Club 384: Kublai Khan of Mongolia

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Kublai Khan of Mongolia, whom we last played in NC 332; we last played the Mongolians under Genghis Khan in NC 359. The Mongolians start with Hunting and The Wheel.

• Traits: Kublai Khan is Aggressive and Creative. Aggressive gives all Melee and Gunpowder units a free Combat I promotion, and gives a +100% bonus to Barracks and Drydocks. Creative gives every city +2 for free, and gives a +100% bonus to Libraries, Theatres, and Colosseums.
• The UB: The Ger, a Stable with +4 exp added to Mounted units rather than +2. Generally not seen as useful for a Keshik rush since quantity is often better than quality in very early rushes, but Elepult can get some good benefit from Gers since one or two cities can focus on pumping out high quality War Elephants while the others pump out a steady stream of Catapults and other miscellaneous units.
• The UU: The Keshik, a Horse Archer with +1 First Strike instead of FS immunity, and an innate ability to ignore any and all terrain movement costs. Target behind a forested hill which itself is behind a river? Keshiks don't care, they'll cross the river and climb the forested hill with one like it's nothing. Note that this ability is unique to the unit and not a free promotion (in fact Keshiks can't actually get the Mobility promotion at all, largely because it'd be completely useless to them), so the ability will not transfer over if the unit is upgraded.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Fractal, rocky climate, medium sealevel.

Spoiler edits :

Strategic resource swaps.

Spoiler isolated? :

Not isolated.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 384 Kublai Khan Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

As great as plains hills are to settle on I think I'd just SIP here? Don't want to move away from wet rice, don't want to move two turns away from floodplains...can't see a better settling spot off-hand but I could easily be missing something. SIP surely will be at least a decent settle, at any rate...right?

What do the experts think?

 

[Thrasybulos]

If the discussions for those games are anything to go by, the experts clearly think that if you can't get an extra yield on your capital's tile, the map is unplayable.
So SIP is definitely a no-go.

PH agalore here...
1SE moves off the river and off the rice, so... no.
1S3W moves away from the rice, so probably no too, unless the scout is sent there first and reveals something yummy.
That leaves both 1S2W and 2N2E: both on the river, the latter away from the rice but has extra FP.
That means a coin flip as to where the scout is sent.

That said... Honestly, here, I'd 99% settle on the Rice.
But I'm no expert.

 

[Whisker]

I'm much inclined to settle PH 2W1S as it retains river access. Here I will probably move settler 1N before moving scout hopefully revealing more than 1 square, possibly affecting which way to send the scout while not affecting settling date if first inclination holds true.

 

[Fippy]

Nothing before a scout move which can reveal so many new tiles..
and nopes i dunno how we could fix that "problem" for opening discussions.

 

[sampsa]

SIP seems decent (well without a scout move), as ph keeping the rice is 2T away and loses fps. That's +20 lost, though the extra is valuable of course.

Feels bad to settle on wet rice, but at least it allows you to skip agri.

 

[AcaMetis]

Had not expected people to settle on the rice, not going to lie .

Regarding the scout, where to send him? 2SE to check for SIP resources? 1N -> 1SW to check the rice settle? Somewhere else?

 

[Izuul]

Settling on wet rice feels pretty bad unless there's another good food source. SIP is an OK option, so I think I would move the scout SW to see if there's anything to justify spending 2T to settle on the PH.

 

[notslin]

SIP seems most likely.

Long term effects of settling on the rice -- You currently have 4 flood plains in the capital, so you still have food if you settle on the rice. Long term, settling on the rice nets you 4 more flat river tiles. However, zooming in on the map, it looks like that net gain is all plains (just a guess), since it looks like the only flat grassland river tile you gain is the one 2N3W of the settler, and then you no longer kill the plains tile you moved away from. So settling on the rice is probably a slightly weaker capital long term.

Because the area near north and southwest ph seem dry, and I like the flood plains, I might actually send the scout 1W and then 1SW just to see if there are any resources to the west to justify settling on rice.

[Edit] The problem with settling on rice is then, what do you improve with your faster worker? I don't like the rice so much actually.

 

[sampsa]

Had not expected people to settle on the rice, not going to lie .

Well, one guy with somewhat unusual arguments isn't "people" . I wasn't trying to speak in favor of settling on the rice if that wasn't clear.

 

[sampsa]

The problem with settling on rice is then, what do you improve with your faster worker? I don't like the rice so much actually.

Certainly grow on fps to whip the worker (or a settler).

 

[notslin]

Zoomed in screenshot of tile 3N of settler (not actually a spoiler, as no actions taken).

Spoiler :

Hmm, 3N of the settler is maybe a flood plain. No splotch of plains or grassland immediately north of last visible tile, just a linear shadow.

 

[chinemol]

Agri opens up early pottery and there's flood lains to be cottaged! My guess would be SIP unless scout reveals stone or marble to settle on up north. Maybe even a pig or sth that calls for an animal husbandry opening with a keshik guy

 

[sampsa]

Pottery before BW will be working poorly in general. First you want the to expand, only then start working cottages.

 

[konata_LS]

Had not expected people to settle on the rice, not going to lie .

Apart from the post at #3, there is Konata who would by default put Karakorum on top of the wet rice. At least two players settle on the rice. That's why you used the word "people". Thanks for counting me in the "settle on wet rice/corn/wheat" category

Pottery before BW will be working poorly in general.

Generally yes, although in one of my off-line games I went for BW first and ended up on strike before the wheel.

Spoiler What happened when an emperor player suddenly challenged deity :

Trying to get BW for chopping all these forests. Strike on T63.
Deity maintenance and unit costs were much more brutal than expected.
You know it's deity when Mids gets built in 2000BC.

Actually my didn't allow me to even finish BW. So the situation was halfway of BW, no TW, and strike.

 

[chinemol]

Apart from the post at #3, there is Konata who would by default put Karakorum on top of the wet rice. At least two players settle on the rice. That's why you use "people". Thanks for counting me in the "settle on wet rice/corn/wheat" category


Generally yes, although in one of my off-line games I went for BW first and ended up on strike before the wheel.

Spoiler What happened when an emperor player suddenly challenged deity :

Trying to get BW for chopping all these forests. Strike on T63.
Deity maintenance and unit costs were much more brutal than expected.
You know it's deity when Mids gets built in 2000BC.

Actually my didn't allow me to even finish BW. So the situation was halfway of BW, no TW, and strike.

corinth is working forest instead of coast!!!

 

[sampsa]

Yes, it is possible to go on STRIKE early if you pay absolutely no attention to where your is coming from. Settling way too far from the capital is often one culprit. Rivers allow cities to be connected. Coast can be worked etc.

 

[chinemol]

Spoiler imm mid renaissance :

was going to keshik Asoka, but had his religion. Huayna and Sury didn't spread theirs and Sury started potting, so turned my sights on him. Couldn´t wipe him and far away from vassalage. Peace treaty with Huayna ended with Sury still holding 4 cities, vassaled to him next turn. Huayna is slow teching cuirs right now (no gunpowwder yet). Maybe I'll get Lib unless the other continent gets it first, haven't met any of them. Cuirs looks like a no go, Asoka will surely go free religion, so maybe convert to huayna's religion? not sure how to go on ahead diplo or military-wise

considerations as of lategame:

Spoiler :

Think keshik rushing was a bad option. Economy never recovered to catch up with Huayna and felt like Mansa was in the game, tech trade went rampant. No diplo, domination, culture, conquest clear path. Might try space or replay in a couple of weeks