Nobles' Club 386: Julius Caesar of the Romans

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Julius Caesar of Rome, whom we last played in NC 319; we last played the Romans under Augustus Caesar in NC 381. The Romans start with Fishing and Mining.

• Traits: Julius Caesar is Imperialistic and Organized. Imperialistic adds +100% to Great General generation and +50% bonus to Settler production (note that the settler bonus doesn't apply to excess directly converted to ). Organized cuts Civic Upkeep in half, and gives a +100% bonus to Lighthouses, Courthouses and Factories.
• The UB: The Forum, a Market with +25% . A minor boost, which only few cities will truly benefit from, tied to an expensive building makes the Forum an overall underwhelming UB.
• The UU: The Praetorian, a Swordsman with a show-stopping 8, albeit at the cost of losing it's innate +10% City Attack and costing slightly more to produce (45 rather than 40 on Normal speed). Praetorians can also be upgraded directly into Rifles and Grenadiers, meaning they can be build until you've researched both Rifling and Military Science.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Continents, Temperate climate, Medium sealevel.

Spoiler edits :

One strategic resource swap, one unworkable seafood move.

Spoiler isolated? :

Not isolated.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 386 Julius Caesar Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

Don't have time for a detailed analyses, but I see conspicuous holes in the canopy 2N and 2E1N of the settler's starting position - possible resources? The settler can settle a Plains Hill 1E or 1SE, the former grabbing the 2N tile and the latter grabbing the 3S and 3S1E tile of settler starting position. Send the Warrior 1SE to scout 3S and 3S1E, if good resources there move to settle the PH 1SE, if no good resources move to settle PH 1E and pray 2N is something?

Any experts have a better idea than that rushed, scatterbrained attempt at an analyses ?

 

[Thrasybulos]

Honestly, even though we have 3 options for a better center tile... this would probably just be a SIP for me: it gets rid of a weak tile, it allows post-Bureaucracy irrigation of the Corn, it makes sharing said Corn easier than the other option I'd consider, it keeps potential BFC ressources in the BFC, it has the best river-tile count, and with Imperialistic I'd actually want to work those forested PH.
The other option I'd consider is SOB (because it induces tears in experts' eyes): also an immediate settle, gets a better center tile, same river situation, saves a forest, same Corn irrigation situation. But it gets us a likely useless tile (3S1W: coast ?), might ruin seafood (if that's indeed coast), gets both potential extra ressource tiles out of the BFC, and might induce an idle worker. So... Hmmm. Yeah. Maybe not such a great idea.

Of course, could do the boring stuff and settle a PH. But unless those potential ressource materialize in the form of metals or some other decent production yield, that means our capital will have essentially zero production (I know, I know, except for the whip and chops and those are the only ones which actually count. ).

 

[notslin]

Don't have time for a detailed analyses, but I see conspicuous holes in the canopy 2N and 2E1N of the settler's starting position - possible resources? The settler can settle a Plains Hill 1E or 1SE, the former grabbing the 2N tile and the latter grabbing the 3S and 3S1E tile of settler starting position. Send the Warrior 1SE to scout 3S and 3S1E, if good resources there move to settle the PH 1SE, if no good resources move to settle PH 1E and pray 2N is something?

My analysis is the same, except I might settle the southern Plains Hill even if the warrior doesn't find resources to the south.

 

[chinemol]

If there is a shore fish it would modify my choice, so that is where the warrior will move. Otherwise settle 1E gives the 2 hammer bonus, useful with imperialistic. Opening agg, bw looks like the choice either way.
I would try to save the banana because of the dry corn and potential seafood ruin.

 

[a pen-dragon]

The other option I'd consider is SOB (because it induces tears in experts' eyes)

Actually, I consider settling on calendar food resources (sugar and banana, well mostly sugar) superior to PH, unless one is Exp (or Imp, but Imp benefits less) or the calendar resource is on a river, as the additional food helps more than the additional production. If on a river the tile can be farmed for 4, which is decent. Post calendar such a resource is obviously much stronger than a PH, but that is a long way into the future.

It allows faster initial growth, and food can be converted at a favourable ratio into production.

In this specific case, the banana can reasonably be farmed, but compared to a PH SOB is T0 instead of T1 and the worker can improve the corn upon being finished. That said, JC is IMP, making PH stronger.

Anyway, Warrior 1 SE is probably most useful. I would probably take the northern PH, as that does not go closer to the coast and keeps the tile currently 2N.

 

[soundjata]

On bananas is one turn faster worker and 3 turns faster level 2 cap, compared to settling a plains hill.

SOB wins

 

[sampsa]

Seems insane to not get a boosted city center. On nanners is standard imo, even with IMP.

 

[notslin]

Maybe I'll try playing 50 turns PH vs. banana and see which one wins.

 

[drewisfat]

Seems insane to not get a boosted city center. On nanners is standard imo, even with IMP.

You should consider settler first as both traits scream it. We even see a hill in the northwest on the river on t0 (and could confirm its bonus hammer if you move warrior). Assuming we settled capital on E or SE hills, that's minimum maintenance (1 with ORG at start!), instant trade route, extra bonus hammer, you didn't drop the sus tile in the NE, and if it turns out to be a very food poor start you won't have any regrets. Meanwhile the "faster nana worker" camp is going to end up farming grasslands or straight idling early if you're not bailed out by another farmable resource showing up. Continents maps are big and barbs are scary. Getting 2 cities early with extra bonus hammers to boot will make it a cakewalk for me, while you're teching archery or some nonsense

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

On the hills for +25% combat bonus.

Which hill?

 

[notslin]

Turn 50 with Plains Hill

Spoiler :

This map enables a fast start I think. The river is very useful.

Tech: Teched BW then Pottery. One beaker from AH. Not sure if IW (for gems) or Writing (for an early academy, etc.) comes next.

Cities: River valley settled with three cities. The fish to the west can be backfilled later. Copper/dye city to be settled next turn.

Development: Two workers. Second cottage next turn. Worker ready to improve cow pasture next turn (probably lost a turn here). Populations: 4, 4, 2. Granary mostly finished in city 2.

Overall, commerce is decent (+16 gold at 0% and cottage sharing coming online). Copper should come online soon giving us a chance of defense if a neighbor attacks. Barbs were gentle with warrior fogbusting (though I lost a warrior on grassland hill to an archer and had to chop a backup warrior) and neighbors are pretty close.

 

[sampsa]

@drewisfat Yeah, obviously my motive for posting was just to bash SIP (hence I said boosted city center - any of them beat SIP by a huge margin surely). Great that I managed to summon you!

Is banana settle worse though even if you go settler first? 1T faster, saves a forest (only focusing on the positives!).

 

[notslin]

I had guessed that PH was better with worker first, but I guess I could be mistaken.

Banana settle

• 1 turn faster
• +1 food, which is usually better than +1 hammer
  • Growing faster into forests isn't that great, though.
  • I guess if you do early whipping (e.g. 2-pop whip settler), the +1 food can be very useful. I think this is a weakness in my game: I usually delay switching into slavery.

Plains hill settle

• The banana tile is a better tile to work early; e.g. it gives you +1 commerce early on while building worker.
• The riverside banana tile is a better tile to work in general:
  • If you have a lot of food in the capital, you can share food with other cities and work the banana.
  • If you don't have a lot of food in the capital, you'll probably work the banana most of the time.
  • Keeping a good tile negates the disadvantage of +1 hammer vs. +1 food.
• +1 hammer can be almost as useful as +1 food early on, since settlers, workers, and warriors are the main builds.
  • You'll grow to size 2/3/4 a couple turns slower but you'll make about the same amount of warriors, I think.
  • Unless you whip?

I feel like if Banana settle is better, it must be very close?

However, warrior move can change the equation, so I don't think there's a conclusion from the starting screenshot.

 

[Thrasybulos]

@notslin
Speaking of PH, why haven't you settled Cumae 1S?
In addition to being a PH settle, it could borrow the Corn from Rome when needed, and could work more cottages for Rome.

I believe btw it's the hill @drewisfat was mentionning?

 

[notslin]

@Thrasybulos yes, definitely need some attempts to optimize.

Spoiler :

I did worker first and settled southern city (Antium) first to share rice.

I didn't think much about the northern city (Cumae). I guess I went north of PH to block off slightly more land and get access to coast.

I think you can get off to a good start on this map, but you lose momentum quickly if you play carelessly.

 

[drewisfat]

@drewisfat Yeah, obviously my motive for posting was just to bash SIP (hence I said boosted city center - any of them beat SIP by a huge margin surely). Great that I managed to summon you!

Is banana settle worse though even if you go settler first? 1T faster, saves a forest (only focusing on the positives!).

Settling on nanas would ruin the ability to settle the bonus ph hill I'm talking about 2N2W of the nanas.

 

[Build2Much]

1. Appreciate the discussion. I was looking for a game, thought this was interesting, and I would have blindly settled the banana without it. I think I’m better off because I didn’t. (Also, I went settler first, which I would not have considered).

2. Can someone criticize my settling/dotmap? Which spot (or a different spot if the dots are poor) would you go next. I think organized should definitely allow at least 1 more city before I attempt to conquer the world. I tried to be very tight and share resources, cottages in the capital are about to happen.

Spoiler :

I think South is the best target if you can’t tell.

 

[a pen-dragon]

Can someone criticize my settling/dotmap?

Spoiler :

Rome, Antium, Cumae are solid, nice early cities.

Now Neapolis is not that good, as long as you do not plan on using the stone, as it has no food except the cumae cows. Clam+copper would have been better.

Both your double fish and clam spot have no food in the first ring, making them extremely slow to contribute.

Clam 1S grabs the clams in the first ring, making it a much better city.

Regarding the fish, a city should go on one of the tiles in the first ring of the coastal fish. The placement of Antium means you can only go on the southern one of these. (1NW of your spot)

Unrelated, but consider chopping some forests to speed up your start.

 

[sampsa]

@Build2Much You should chop more, WAY more. Mainly towards settlers and workers to be able to expand faster. With more workers you'd be working some cottages already. With that you are able to pay the bills to expand more.

Very rarely should you have an almost full -bar slow building a worker, because you are not using that food at all then. On this start granaries are of very low value and you probably shouldn't be whipping much. Not sure if it makes sense to be in slavery even. You should be in -cap working -tiles and cottages, either slow building settlers/workers or simply growing past -cap. You can use that later (granary whip for example, or 3-pop settler, big overflow to granary) when the -cap issue is resolved.