Nobles' Club 392: Frederick's AI League Revenge Match

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice. And poor Frederick? He's going to need it this round. Tired of his status as a joke in the AI League he's decided to throw down with the best and brightest Civ IV has to offer. Surely this won't end poorly .

Our next leader is Frederick of Germany, whom we last played in NC 358; we last played the Germans under Bismark in NC 336. The Germans start with Hunting and Mining.

• Traits: Frederick is Organized and Philosophical. Organized cuts Civic Upkeep in half, and gives a +100% bonus to Lighthouses, Courthouses and Factories. Philosophical gives all cities +100% generation and a +100% bonus to Universities.
• The UB: The Assembly Plant, a Factory with 2 additional Engineer specialist slots which gets a +50% bonus towards it's own construction when you've got access to Coal. Factories are staple buildings in basically any game that reaches Assembly Line, and the combination of Frederick's Organized trait and the Assembly Plant's inherent production bonus allows you to industrialize faster than anyone short of a SPI leader flipping into a quick (and painful) bout of Slavery.
• The UU: The Panzer, a Tank with +50% vs. Armored units. In >99% of all situations Panzers are just bigger, beefier-looking tanks with no relevant bonus. In the <1% situation where you're fighting a tank war, however, you'll be thankful that these guys turn one of the most dangerous units of the industrial era into target practice. As for Modern Armor, all else being equal Panzers actually get winning odds against them, albeit only barely. Of course any situation in which that's relevant is a situation where you're probably doomed regardless, but that's still not bad for a base 28 unit facing a base 40 unit from a later epoch.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Shuffle, Cold climate, Medium sealevel. They said it'd be a mighty cold day downstairs before Frederick would manage to win. For better or worse this map certainly has the appropriate temperature setting .

Spoiler edits :

Two strategic resource swaps.

Spoiler isolated? :

Not isolated.

Spoiler what is Shuffle? :

Shuffle is a map script that randomly chooses between Pangaea, Continents, Fractal and Archipelago map scripts.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 392 Frederick Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

No time to analyze the start unfortunately, so the lack of Plains Hills would probably see me go "SIP is probably good enough". Even though I doubt it is, that coast is looking mighty empty truth be told.

Any expert wishing to weigh in on Frederick's chances? Guy needs the to bail him out of this mess .

 

[chinemol]

might consider settling the riverside if found sth good, so that is where my scout will go. Otherwise, SIP and start sauering die krauts

 

[Thrasybulos]

Not at home atm, so can't check it out.
But I'll guess I'll have to play a few rounds of aiplay to set the bar?

The area south of the scout might be interesting (rivers)... or not (mainly plains?).

With the blue circle under the settler and not 1S, can we assume 3S1E is not a Fish? (or since the AI always SIPs, is the blue circle an unreliable indicator, even for that? I always play with suggestions off, so I wouldn't know).
My first instinct would be to settle NW, but I'd probably send the scout in the area first.
NW keeps both visible ressources in the BFC, while getting rid of the useless coast tiles, and getting us next to the river. We still have two green hills and the cows for some production. And the hill NE of the Corn could be settled down the line to share the Corn and still exploit the lake as a 3F tile.

 

[Build2Much]

Basically what @Thrasybulos said.

I like the possibility of using one of the 3 hills to the east as a coastal city (if there is seafood available there) and I’d prefer my capital to be further inland with no fish available if I SIP. So I’ll move the scout 1NW, then see what my best 2nd move is. If I find another food I’m potentially willing to leave the corn and settle the other side of the river, otherwise I’ll settle 1NW.

 

[Izuul]

More coast to the east. I guess the question is SIP vs moving inland to get more land.

1NW on the river looks like a better spot, but it delays settling 1T and the corn by 2T. Also kills a forest on a start where I would probably go BW right after AG.

What the scout reveals is really important.

 

[Build2Much]

Also @AcaMetis thanks for the game - I needed a new map this week!

 

[Fippy]

It's shuffle which can be Islands or Fractal, being on the coast for GLH might be really good.
ORG lighthouse too

 

[soundjata]

More coast to the east. I guess the question is SIP vs moving inland to get more land.

1NW on the river looks like a better spot, but it delays settling 1T and the corn by 2T. Also kills a forest on a start where I would probably go BW right after AG.

What the scout reveals is really important.

Agreed. Moving is losing turns.
What do we want that is better than a wet corn?

Nothing is better than a wet corn

 

[Thrasybulos]

It's shuffle which can be Islands or Fractal, being on the coast for GLH might be really good.

That's a fair point.

Spoiler Although... :

The spoilered map details (not isolated) + hinted setup (AI Survivor/League) have me strongly suspect a pangea-type landmass.
Could be wrong, though.

Agreed. Moving is losing turns.

What's with the sudden obsession?

The suggested move trades 5 useless coastal tile for 5 riverside tiles, 3 of which at least we know to be grassland. And that's not mentioning making better use of your palace's culture output.
Early snowball effect, yadayadayada, that's still worth a turn in my book.

Unless you're committed to running over the map with AHs and never planning on having your capital work more than 4 tiles, of course... and even then... I'd argue it saves turns: your units will be produced one move closer to the front!

 

[Build2Much]

I am going to try to start this today. My gut was 1NW unless I find a reason to go further W but SIP is getting more love than I expected.

Pro-SIP - TGL? Saves 1 turn settle, 1 worker turn (city 2 could be at least 2 turns earlier? That’s definitely something). Keeps additional forests and hills for potential production. Lighthouse for a 3f lake tile. Plenty of tiles to work, even with poor coastal ones.

Con-SIP - higher possibility of killing fish, impossible to know at this point. Claims less land. River settle might reduce need for roads. Not possible to build 2nd city to the E to work corn and potential 3f lake tile when Berlin is at happy cap (although I think there is at least one more tile over there, just further E - could take corn). Let’s be honest, capital is never going to work those hills to the east, but could be very useful for a 2nd city. Moving 1NW increases cottage possibilities and adds “suspicious naked tiles” while removing none from BFC.

 

[Izuul]

Unless you're committed to running over the map with AHs and never planning on having your capital work more than 4 tiles, of course

Corn + Cow + 4 green cottages + 1 brown cottage + up to 4 green hill mines. It's not quite the financial powerhouse that 1NW could develop into, but there's still plenty of good tiles to work with a good balance of commerce and production.

Not having enough tiles to work isn't really my concern with SIP. It's really about the land. SIP obviously claims less tiles with the capital, and it also doesn't leave room for a city to the east in case there's seafood over there OR another food source for the capital to the west in which case the 2nd city could use the corn. But I also value the early turns pretty highly. Delaying settling by 1T and wet corn by 2T is fairly significant.

If the scout finds food over there to the west I'd probably move to leave room for a 2nd city. If not there's a pretty good chance I would SIP and just go for the faster start.

 

[Thrasybulos]

I dunno, I remain unconvinced, but then, I'm an heretic.

I might be wrong, but I seem to remember that the common wisdom was: if coastal and no sea food, move inland. With good reason.
Now, you're saying that shaving off a turn trumps that.

Settling a turn later costs 2F 1H 2C. Improving the Corn 1 turn later costs 3F.
So for a total of 5F 1H 2C, you consider it's worth halving the potential of your Bureaucracy capital, requiring more warriors for fog busting, etc...?

Hell, by that account, losing the forest should be an even bigger consideration. And yet, that's the equivalent of losing an early warrior to a bad roll. Hardly a game breaking event.

As I said, I'm aware of the snowballing effects of early gains, but here the snowball seems to me a tad too tiny to get an avalanche started.

 

[a pen-dragon]

Settling a turn later costs 2F 1H 2C. Improving the Corn 1 turn later costs 3F.

You delay the corn by 2 turns, and have to consider the palace commerce, so the immediate effect is -8F -1H -9C. Also you loose a forest. I say immediate effect, because it will take you longer to grow to greater sizes, loosing out on yield at each growth. I would guess this delays your first 4->2 whip by 2-3 turns, and everything snowballs... Now if it gets you a third high-yield tile, its fine, if it improves the city center its fine, if it does not delay your settling its fine.

Seeing the land tile 1N2E of the corn means there are only 3+1 sea tiles on which a seafood could be orphaned.

This would have to be compensated by a faster development of other cities. I would guess the surrounding land is rather good (even though there is jungle NE), so even if SIP wastes a seafood that 1NW does not, that seafood city would have to contribute early. With the presumably good land around I do not see a payback. I see 3 likely good locations for further cities: around the floodplain, along the river, and next to the corn.

Regarding bureau, if you find a great spot, you could move the capital.

 

[Build2Much]

-9c I had definitely not factored in - moving 1NW does keep you from working the unimproved cow until border pop #1, plus the delay in improving the corn, etc. I definitely better see the argument for SIP if scouting doesn’t reveal a power tile. Without starting w/fishing there is very little commerce available so throwing some away is questionable.

Edit: wait, the unimproved cow doesn’t have any commerce, it isn’t riverside. I still don’t see where -9c comes from. Not sure what I’m missing.

 

[Build2Much]

Enough of this messing around - I moved the scout 1NW and then 1N to reveal everything that I could. WWYD?

Spoiler a little more info :

 

[Leason]

Spoiler :

SIP looks to be the clear winner now.
Have another river over to the west as well to scout but has jungle. Any orphaned seafood to the east is just a casualty.

Ag > AH > BW and start chopping, no seafood so I would go wheel > pottery over fishing

.

 

[sampsa]

I still don’t see where -9c comes from. Not sure what I’m missing.

8 from palace and 1 from city center. i.e. one turn of research.

 

[sampsa]

I might be wrong, but I seem to remember that the common wisdom was: if coastal and no sea food, move inland. With good reason.
Now, you're saying that shaving off a turn trumps that.

Settling a turn later costs 2F 1H 2C. Improving the Corn 1 turn later costs 3F.
So for a total of 5F 1H 2C, you consider it's worth halving the potential of your Bureaucracy capital, requiring more warriors for fog busting, etc...?

Well, what once was common wisdom can now be rubbish. A turn is a LOT. Moving to gain highercc is very different as it is faster despite losing .

Settling a turn later loses a lot more what you claim (palace) and it loses 2T on the corn. It's a big sacrifice for a better placement.

 

[Build2Much]

8 from palace and 1 from city center. i.e. one turn of research.

Yep, that is definitely a good, direct way to look at the first turn value that I haven’t ever used.

So effectively the thought is that you would need to move to a spot where you would work an equivalent 3f/h tile (we already have corn or cow to work) that also had a commerce (while building the initial worker, ie needs to make up the lost turn 0 commerce during the initial build) to make it possibly “worth” losing the 1 turn of tech.

That makes sense to me.