Nobles' Club 392: Frederick's AI League Revenge Match

[Build2Much]

I will eventually actually play this, I swear.

Let’s say we SIP. We have zero commerce. Going Ag>AH to improve the 2 best tiles would require either mining the hill after the corn, delaying the cow, or wasting a turn (I think) standing on the cow.

Is this a “BW first so you can chop” situation?

 

[Thrasybulos]

You delay the corn by 2 turns, and have to consider the palace commerce, so the immediate effect is -8F -1H -9C.

Good catch.

Well, you guys are the experts.
If you say SIP is better, then SIP is better.

... but I would still blissfully ignore such an opinion.
I'm not (yet?) at the point where I'd consider that saving one turn is worth sacrificing a strong Bureaucracy capital spot.
The day I "waste" a turn to move my capital to a stronger longer-term spot and lose the game... try again, and lose again... try again and lose again, and again... Then SIP and win...
That day I'll be convinced.
Possibly.

Spoiler That said... :

I guess I would have got lucky?
Sugar is weak food, but it is food, and working it while waiting for the Corn to be improved would get back some of the "wasted" commerce.
And if you SIP, that Sugar is bound to be lost to the jungle...

 

[sampsa]

@Thrasybulos

Spoiler :

Seeing the jungle should mean moving NW is bad. Sugar is a good thing, sure, but jungle can spread on it. When it's in your BFC you no longer can settle on it.

If you can't settle many cities, a strong bureau cap might save you. But why can't you settle many cities? Usually because you are slow.

 

[Thrasybulos]

Spoiler :

Sugar is a good thing, sure, but jungle can spread on it.

Not really.
Sure, you could get super unlucky and it could spread on turn 1.
But apart from that... you can park your scout on it until your borders expand, then you're gonna work that tile until the corn is farmed, and then you're gonna farm it. So that leaves another 2-turn window before your worker's on it where the jungle could spread (again, unlucky, and you could, if paranoid enough, get your scout back on it for that short window).

But if SIP, then jungle will spread on it, leaving settling on it as your only option...

When it's in your BFC you no longer can settle on it.

... but why would you do that?
I thought about it before posting my earlier comment. Settling on a calendar ressource is a usual good move. But here?
It's a jungle-choked city, with no power tile to work, probably unhealthy as size 1!
I know that I tend to plan further ahead than is considered good play, but even I want my early cities to be able to contribute meaningfully to my empire (which means mainly workers and settlers early on).
I can't see such a city as a meaningful early contributor.

On the other hand, a city NE of the Corn would be such a city, and SIP blocks it.

 

[Thrasybulos]

So, I did AI play that map, AH-style.

I ran 6 games under standard rules (NH/NE but all the rest default: no Agressive AIs, tech trading on, bonus Deity techs, AP available, Vassal States enabled, etc.).

Then I ran 7 games under AI Survivor current rules: no AP, no bonus techs, no vassals, no tech trading, Aggressive AIs ON.
The map was also slightly edited.

Spoiler :

All islands were removed, which, by a quirk of this map, meant almost all sea food was gone.
I did salvage a Clam: I moved the Clam next to Gilgamesh's start one tile West so that it wouldn't be an illegal Ocean Clam. That brought it into Gilgamesh's initial BFC.
I also opened some passages in the Ice so we wouldn't get unreachable barb galleys spawning.

Finally, I ran 7 games under AI League rules: same as AI survivor but with Diplomatic victory disabled, no barbs, initial warriors instead of archers, and, possibly an impactful change on this map, all the sea ice was removed.

(Actual spoiler inside, as it'll give you the opponent list!)

Spoiler Results :

("Gold" victory type is diplo. Victory is 6 pts instead of 5 since it's a 7-player game.)

Freddie indeed:

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

Not really.
Sure, you could get super unlucky and it could spread on turn 1.
But apart from that... you can park your scout on it until your borders expand, then you're gonna work that tile until the corn is farmed, and then you're gonna farm it. So that leaves another 2-turn window before your worker's on it where the jungle could spread (again, unlucky, and you could, if paranoid enough, get your scout back on it for that short window).

Which is sacrificing scouting, meeting AIs and fog busting. Yes you can do it, but it's a sacrifice. One that you very much should not want to make.

But if SIP, then jungle will spread on it, leaving settling on it as your only option...

... but why would you do that?
I thought about it before posting my earlier comment. Settling on a calendar ressource is a usual good move. But here?
It's a jungle-choked city, with no power tile to work, probably unhealthy as size 1!
I know that I tend to plan further ahead than is considered good play, but even I want my early cities to be able to contribute meaningfully to my empire (which means mainly workers and settlers early on).
I can't see such a city as a meaningful early contributor.

It's not unhealthy at size 1. I did settle my 2nd city on the N sugar, because of barb issues near the better site. It's not great but it's completely ok as it requires no workerT.

On the other hand, a city NE of the Corn would be such a city, and SIP blocks it.

You can share the corn if SIP which is already seen in the starting screenshot so I don't really understand your argument.

 

[AcaMetis]

Finally, I ran 7 games under AI League rules: same as AI survivor but with Diplomatic victory disabled, no barbs, initial warriors instead of archers, and, possibly an impactful change on this map, all the sea ice was removed.

(Actual spoiler inside, as it'll give you the opponent list!)

Spoiler :

That actually didn't go as poorly for Freddy as I expected. At least he's got a buddy back in lapped three to nine times over land .

 

[sampsa]

T50 Demigod

Spoiler :

City spots seem kind of obvious to me. Northern spot is nowhere near -cap and can connect 3-resources when needed. Oh the border pop will connect all three cities next turn, thus didn't plan a road network. Of course is horrible now but should go up quickly. HBRing the northern guy seems like an obvious idea even with these traits. Definitely no writing (or math bulb) for me, just pottery and straight to techs for HAs.

 

[Izuul]

Sampsa

Spoiler :

What was your tech path? BW before or after AH?

 

[sampsa]

@Izuul

Spoiler :

Hmm yes forgot to write it: agri-BW-AH-wheel-(pot-HBR-arch).

Looks like I was wrong about the connection, T51 border pop doesn't connect southern city.

 

[Qactus]

...
Looks like I was wrong about the connection, T51 border pop doesn't connect southern city.

You'd need culture on the coast tile 2E of Munich as well

 

[Build2Much]

Last night/this morning 2 attempts on immortal.

First one (SIP) abandoned by turn 100 due to what I think was user error

Spoiler Bad job by me :

SIP, AG>BW>AH I forget exactly what I did after that but I overexpanded for the non-existent commerce, didn’t beeline to HAs directly enough from here. It wasn’t going to work, I was never getting to HBR.

2nd attempt went much better settling 1NW and was probably easier for someone like me to play from there especially with 100 turns of previous map knowledge.

Spoiler Basically cheating does work :

So turns out if you know you won’t get copper and you almost have to HA rush, settling the river is far better because you just skip BW and can go AG>AH>Wheel>Pottery then go get your HAs. BW can wait until then when you have commerce and are attacking for chops/whips. Giggles didn’t stand a chance and from there it is pretty easy. HC peace vassaled to me, I just finished taking half of the Ottoman Empire (vassaled) including half of the wonders that have been built in the game - 1400ish AD (approx, not in front of the game right now). I’m too strong with useful vassals and control the AP, it’s just a matter of how I finish this now.

I will play this a 3rd time, SIP and try to do @sampsa tech path properly without over-expanding. I see how it is the right play, I just get distracted and don’t stay on task too easily.

 

[Build2Much]

3rd time seems to be the charm. I’m still not 100% what I did the first time. One note

Spoiler SIP required less luck, but… :

SIP required, at least in my attempt 3, much more knowledge and usage of diplomacy. Got to HAs, built some, used that to trade for IW and lots of other things because I was a little stuck and needed to speed up construction and Monarchy - took multiple much smaller tech groups than I normally would. When I got construction I traded away my horses for elephants, could build a good stack with that. Then had to patiently wait to get everyone on my good side while building the stack and teching to engineering so I could pick a target. HC was the lone holdout so he got elepulted w/longbows and Trebs added. Unfortunately he completed Chicken Pizza so it was a bit of a slog to get Cuzco, but now that I have that should just need one more city (which has the ‘mids) before he Vassals and should be good to win the map now. Begging for to ensure peace from the others was a huge help.

 

[Build2Much]

Wound up finishing attempt #2 (settle 1 NW). It was what I wanted to do from the start and was closest to completion. 1802 conquest/domination that almost certainly could have been much earlier if I had just pushed it rather than play it safe. I do think this is not the easiest map and depending on how you start it and your initial tech path there are different challenges. Good luck and thanks for the game!

Spoiler We had our revenge :