Nobles' Club 395: Catherine of Russia

[AcaMetis]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Catherine of Russia, whom we last played in NC 344; we last played the Russians under Peter in NC 388. The Russians start with Hunting and Mining.

• Traits: Catherine is Creative and Imperialistic. Creative gives every city +2 for free, and gives a +100% bonus to Libraries, Theatres, and Colosseums. Imperialistic adds +100% to Great General generation and +50% bonus to Settler production (note that the settler bonus doesn't apply to excess directly converted to ).
• The UB: The Research Institute, a Laboratory with +2 free Scientists. A nice boost when going for a Space Race victory, but being the latest UB in the game it'll probably come too late to make a real difference.
• The UU: The Cossack, a Cavalry with +50% vs. Mounted units. Barring the odd UU these guys aren't going to get sniped by another 2 unit until Tanks start rolling around.

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Fractal, Temperate climate, Medium sealevel.

Spoiler edits :

Some resource swaps and one very unfortunately placed Fish was moved somewhere significantly more useful.

Spoiler isolated? :

Not isolated.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 395 Catherine Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Prince. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

Spoiler what is demigod :

The difference between Immortal and Deity difficulty is akin to the difference between Noble and Immortal. Players eventually reached a point where Immortal was too easy, but Deity was still out of reach, and so neither difficulty provided a fun experience. "Demigod" is an otherwise standard Deity game where the AIs are only given their Immortal level starting units, in an attempt to bridge the gap.

Spoiler for players on Monarch or above :

You should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[AcaMetis]

I've stared at this start, and honestly I have no idea what to say about it other than "SIP might not be optimal, but it's definitely good enough". You don't get a city tile yield bonus settling on the plains Incense and I'm not sure about moving away from what looks like forested river tiles into empty tiles, but maybe the extra floodplains are worth it? There's two grains and a cow visible from the settler/scout's starting position, so an extra from floodplains isn't likely to make a major difference, I have to admit.

In any case, that's my read of the situation. What do the experts think?

 

[Thrasybulos]

The issue with SIP is that it forces your hand: you're committing to winning the game before the industrial era.
Otherwise, good luck explaining to your citizens why they can't have a levee when they're surrounded by rivers!

I might be tempted to have a second city 1N1W to act as an imperialistic settler pump as it'd be the best raw production spot in sight. That would imply moving our settler two tiles, though... Move on the wheat and see whether 1S or 1E of the Wheat is appealing?
Which is all silly, I know.
(As I would, amongst other things, have to explain now to my citizens why they have to build roads to connect cities when they're surrounding by rivers. )

(These starts feel like there's a silly bug in the start normalizer, which was provided a workaround instead of a fix : the river endpoint is generated from the wrong tile (or the settler placed on the wrong tile in relation to the river), so the starting position remains without fresh water access. A second pass then creates the fresh water lake to make up for it.)

 

[AcaMetis]

The "settler next to a lake staring at the start of a river just one tile below" is a common sight when rolling maps, I've found. Not as strange as one start I rolled for this NC where the settler started on an Iron tile, though. Never seen that before.

 

[Build2Much]

Apparently I’m not the only one who is driven crazy by starting next to, but not on, a river. I immediately want to settle on some river, somewhere, when I look at this.

I think I’ll move the scout 2E1N and then the settler 1SE and hope I find a spot? I would prefer not to move further S based on the trees and the area W is definitely a good candidate for another city once I have more info.

 

[soundjata]

Cmon... Levee... What?

 

[Genghis the Barbarian]

Cmon... Levee... What?

In all fairness, wouldn't a Fractal map mean you kinda have to be aware of the possibility of the game going late?

 

[Izuul]

Presumably, by the time you need levees you will have plenty of other cities on rivers.

 

[soundjata]

In all fairness, wouldn't a Fractal map mean you kinda have to be aware of the possibility of the game going late?

SIP is a perfect settle because we can improve the wheat and the corn the soonest, and then everything snowballs:
Earlier settlers, workers, fogbusters, ...
I don't want to trade those for a hypothetical levee somewhere after 200 turns.

If the game can be won with a levee in the starting city, it can certainly be won without.

 

[Thrasybulos]

and then everything snowballs

Considering the weather outside right now, I'd rather you didn't mention snowballs...

What about the variant which this game should be approached with?
Playing the standard way would be booooring. You guys would just do what you've done a million times before and prove - again - that the philistine barbarian way is the superior way.

Since Cathy's AI has the backstabbing personality, I would suggest : you may only declare war on leaders who are at Friendly relation status with you.

Spoiler SIP or not SIP ? (MAJOR spoiler inside) :

I mean it. Don't look if you intend to play the game unspoilt.

Spoiler :

If we approach things backwards:
Red dot seem a no-brainer. Or is it? The NE hill could make use of the FPs, but all the rest would seem inferior...
Orange dot pains me (why waste a perfectly good PH when you could improve a desert tile? ), but it also feels like a no-brainer.
Pink dot seems obvious too.
The blue dots are not important (I haven't put too much thought into them, and they don't seem relevant to the discussion).

SIP (light green) would seem to mesh perfectly with those, so that would reinforce the notion that SIP is a no-brainer as well...
But will the eastern coast being so close, SIP kills off the FP 3E.
That FP could be salvaged if instead of SIP, we settled 1E (darker green).
But that would mean destroying one FP to be able to work another one... which seems extremely silly. The only thing we'd gain is river access (and the possibility of working the Horse tile), while we'd severely lose on other accounts (no more starting Corn being the biggest). Even I cannot really suggest that.

So I guess SIP it is...

 

[chinemol]

Commerce is ussualy the issue with her. Catherine is great, but with her it is easy to overexpand, settle cities far appart due to creative and due to the lack of the wheel.

SIP looks solid. Two irrigated farm foods, corn likely to be gifted to a secondary city on the PH (probably a third or fourth city).
Tech path: aggri, BW, the wheel, pottery is my likely choice.
Would love to get horsies, but it is an issue for the future, AH is expensive and not immediately justified

 

[soundjata]

SIP after 25 turns (deity)

Spoiler :

This is what I call an ideal start. Zero food / zero hammer overflow growing to 3 and building a warrior.

Immediate priority is settling "Meh6" spot before Mehmed does.
Then we need to fight against barbs.
Then we need to fight against Mehmed?

@Thrasybulos our dots differ slightly and I think mine offers better levee potential eventually

 

[soundjata]

Update T80

Spoiler :

I feel that expansion is ok.
Barracks and library in the 4 southernmost cities.
The decision to settle Novogrod 3rd was not the best. The tech order was chaotic (pottery>ah>fishing)
Mehmed is a big danger. I'd like to cataphant him.
He's got iron but I have a nice peak on his land

Fun fact: crazy Jao went out of his way to settle an island city between Mehmed and us and he just founded confusion there (fortunately he won't benefit from the culture boost)

Recipe for the cataphant rush:
1. Hope Mehmed does not plot too soon
2. Raze a little jungle baba city up north (we've got 2 axes nearby) for gold
3. Make use of an ok happy cap to work cottages and scientists in order to research construction soon enough. (hope to trade for Masonry, IW and HBR maybe)
4. Add one more city (cow, fish, phants) without jeopardizing the previous point.

 

[Jerry_23]

First time here, Turn 50 (Noble)

Spoiler Turn 50 :

I don’t know if it’s allowed, but I moved my settler down to the river.
I feel really lucky in this game. I got Hinduism even though I wasn’t going for it.

 

[Swejok]

Turn 172 Emperor

Spoiler :

Suleiman had to be vassaled. But he was tough - had the chicken pizza and heavily fortified in Istanbul. The struggle was real.

 

[chinemol]

First time here, Turn 50 (Noble)

Spoiler Turn 50 :

View attachment 753387
I don’t know if it’s allowed, but I moved my settler down to the river.
I feel really lucky in this game. I got Hinduism even though I wasn’t going for it.

the aestetics route may not be the best for noble. It is used for trade on higher levels, but AIs may delay a lot more in reaching Alphabet on Noble difficulty. Also, you are building a monument on St Petersburg. That is used for popping borders, but creative already is doing that job. They may also be useful with charismatic or to build the statue of Zeus, but little else. In any case, enjoy your game!

 

[Swejok]

Fun map..with a twist

Spoiler :

There was an island - all else connected. I won a domination victory - but had no idea of an island until I saw the game recap screen. Fun map.

 

[redmeat]

First time post after eons of leeching wisdom on here so first things first: A big thank you to everyone for sharing. Everything I learned about this game I learned from you guys. And from reloading.

Spoiler Deity, no barbs, 875BC :

SIP, agriculture -> BW

Very rarely do I do this, but worker went to mine the hill SW of capital after improving wheat, but before the wet corn. Size 2 imp settler appeared justified with Suleiman being close. Also imperialistic, and I REALLY didn't want him to settle in my face. Was aiming for the same St Pertersburg spot as @soundjata. Timing worked great as well. After mining, worker goes to chop the forest NW of Moscow. BW finishes just in time, chop finishes the settler, and saves a turn for settler movement. Worker proceeds to farm the wet corn, then copper. @soundjata had zero overflow from warrior build, we had zero wasted worker turns from traveling (which we get away with because we killed all the barbs in the settings)

Lots of space and commerce conscious, wheel, pottery, then AH, fishing, writing. Pretty sure earlier writing can be justified, esp with creative (and the hindsight that GP production was a bit lagging)

T46, Novgorod for floodplains cottage sharing with Moscow.

The settler in St Petersburg finishes this turn. Imperialistic makes diplo cheap, so this guy is going to go on the stone next to Suleiman for a gift city before his cap pops borders on turn 50 (or is it 51?). He's dangerous, plots at pleased, can be bribed at cautious, likes everyone because of HR and being lenient about religion, need to be on good terms. When we moved out, we saw a settler party from Suleiman - could only be the wine/pig spot. Guaranteed massive border tension, so we turn around and settle the spot ourselves. Need to wait for open borders for a potential city gift.

The roading of the corn is certainly the wrong play here. Wanted to connect for trade routes, but realized just in time I want to build warriors in Moscow. The road to Novgorod is questionable. Should have chopped. Saves early worker turns -> proceeds to waste them back immediately

Settler 5 goes 1 north of the gold. Need commerce, happiness, and block Willem. He can get bogged down in the jungle.

875BC, Suleiman gets his gift city - Vladivostok in the far, umm, west. Didn't get liberation bonus
He just finished glh in Edirne - very lucky to get this one in before he pops borders.

The settler in Yaroslavl is for Willem and our scout just found a nice spot for us. We will be making it the capital of Novorossiya later, by building... A levee!

The religious setup is nice, everyone is upset about someone other than me. Would have gone with the Buddha but His Fatness never made it to me. Oh well. Ill be staying out of it.

 

[redmeat]

Spoiler 1AD Decisions, decisions.. :

After writing we go for COL via myst. I think going for aesthetics is justifiable for SOZ and Paya failgold here, but we're creative and the monuments are pure waste. With marble or stone I would have gone aest here.

The transition into the classical era really wasn't well executed. Saved money for a long time waiting for an academy, which came far too late @600BC, given the setup. Not enough chopping backfires. By that time everyone had alpha. Suleiman and Willem had COL . I 3-turned it, with >400gold in the bank. Got good trades out of it - monarchy, math, iw, sailing. A few turns later I got currency for col and monarchy from Hanni.

Switched into hr and caste right away. CC @350BC, bureau right away, out of money.

Then another period of saving money (on paper). Was waiting to see the tech trades emerge and at that point was uncommitted as to type of attack - mounted or cannons? Diplo super solid, and with 9 cities there is no need to go earlier. If I can get MC, feud, mach (and possibly philo with this set of techs) for cc, I might go cannons here. Running 4 scientists each in 2 places, merchants elsewhere, sth like lib steel around 6/700AD seems viable. But no one other than Willem even got MC. We did have the best land on the map..

225BC, close to 500 gold in the bank, I go self tech philo. Only Willem had it. 261bpt @-52 on 100%slider without building wealth. Mounted it is..

1AD, 4 turns from nationalism, 310bpt @-8 building wealth. Scientist is waiting for a golden age, another one 7 turns away to put a bulb into edu. A few cities need to grow before GA, but I'm slow spreading irrigation. Could use more workers. Not enough early chopping.. backfires..

 

[redmeat]

Spoiler Cathy's Renaissance :

GA triggered 250AD

merchants everywhere. Except Moscow is working the cottages the other cities grew for us, trying to grow under heath cap challenge to max trade mission payoff. I went into Judaism for pacifism during the ga. Suleiman had been friendly for ages at that point and Willem was the only one to spread religion to us. Had to backfill the aesthetics line and self tech music, before lib MT 400AD.

GP production wasn't ideal, with better play I could have gotten 4 guys out. Only finished 2 in the GA. Still not bad, so I switched into free religion (mostly for diplo) at the end of the GA and stayed in caste for a few more turns. Cities were putting hammers into forges/barracks/stables to prep overflow whips

580AD revolt into slavery. Finish infrastructure, then HAs and phants. Paying attention to overflow and natural hammers gives us close to 2 units per city every 3 turns. Tons of money, gaining ~230gpt with gunpowder 1 turn from completion and 3 merchants waiting in TofA Athens. I hate having thousands in the bank because of AI demands, but I triggered early because Peri with 15 cities was able to research scimet for 3 turns already. Don't want him to obsolete our bonus cash. +5.1k gold gets us to cossacks, too.

Paid close attention to tech trades each turn for guilds becoming available to possibly go for the economics merchant, but it didn't align properly. Got a trade for PP for Nat and a couple hundred gold from friendly Suleiman though. Sweet!