Nobles' Club 395: Catherine of Russia

[redmeat]

Spoiler 820AD Attack! :

Diplo is safe without bribing or begging. Suleiman will remain friendly on dow, Boudica at war with Joao, Hanni pleased and plotting, Pericles pleased with us and cautious towards Willem. I wonder if s-Hertogenbosch will hold. It may look like overkill, but it's not. He has 7-12 units per city in his core, and we want to keep pushing. 3 cities down on the second turn of the war is a good start. Willem had a strong early game but got seriously delayed by the jungle. Maastricht is still not cleared.

7 cities down, we cap him @980AD. We take our gift city Orenburg back in the deal as well, and make him go free religion for diplo with the other guys.

We would save a turn attacking Pericles if we let Willem keep it, but sacrificing one turn here is worth it to minimize revolts down the road. Pericles stack is at Hanni's border and we will finish rifling in 2 turns. Similarly, we keep Haarlem to keep Amsterdam from revolting. Haarlem will predictably spend 80% in revolt @ 9% per turn. We'll just eat it without even attempting to suppress it.

We still have tons of gold and are still at +85 on 0% slider. The main reason for the delay here is that guilds wasn't available for trade for a very long time and at the time I didn't want to self tech it. Hindsight I should have, and gotten the economics merchant, too. (Could have gifted iron to Hanni to keep building HAs). Would have given us cossacks earlier, and we may have been able to go for Pericles immediately before border adjustments.

 

[redmeat]

Spoiler Borderline spoilery side note :

That's actually one of the seemingly off-meta things I have discovered while moving to deity over the past couple years. With strong starts, going for cavalry right away actually seems much more frequently conducive to the overall pace than cuirassiers. The trades you get on deity are just SoMuchBetter than on immortal. Especially with marble and a 16-25 turn GA including Taj, it's quite common to get trades for guilds, banking, GP, PP (or you bulb it), often Constitution (very neat if you're g-ageing with tons of specialists sans mids), sometimes MT, between, say 200-800AD. The only thing to consistently self tech is RP and rifling, possibly economics. But in such a scenario, say, triggering a GA 1/200AD while building Taj, you don't have any infrastructure up! No forges, no barracks, let alone units. So do I whip while I golden age? I don't think so - for sure not as a default. The choice here seems to be attacking with 25 cuirs around 6/700 AD (still much faster than immortal because you get better trades earlier as well), or 40 cavs 900-1050AD (I never actually had a 900AD cav attack date, but am certain that better players can shave a few turns off even my "good" games) with better infrastructure, more money, a much more solid overall economy, and a dozen turns from communism (or 6 if you get a scimet trade, which seems likely in such a scenario) instead of crawling to rifling on capture gold with an empire whipped to the ground. Besides, you don't lose 90% of cuirs against pikes @40% odds. With cavs you win 90% @70% odds. In my experience. Warfare is much cheaper with cavs. With better play early on AND better trades (first noone got MC for trade, then no guilds), I think that applies here as well. Besides, cossacks are shredding cuirs, so no qualms trading away MT. With weaker starts (economics, fewer cities..) the story of course changes and it may be more important to capture more and better land earlier.

 

[redmeat]

Spoiler Years of peace :

Well, 2 full turns actually. Willem was a couple turns away from communism, but since he was the only one besides us with lib, we send him to get chemistry. Hoping to possibly snatch the free spy. We heal our guys, upgrade much of our army to cossacks, and our money is gone. Finished compass and will self tech optics to get astro from Willem for MT, and scimet from Periclesx once we graciously accept his surrender.

Diplo is getting slightly dicier, though. Boudica is cautious and plotting, has a peace treaty with Joao, but no open borders with Hannibal. Probably it's him she's after. She has astro but we have rifling and slaves. We'll be fine. Hanni is still plotting. I was considering hitting Peri a turn earlier to take 2 cities on the first turn of the war with wounded guys, but I was really hoping Hanni would dow him to keep his army in the east while we take over the west. Suleiman is now only pleased. We'll beg from him before dow because he's at +11 with Pericles and may dow us and vassal him while our army is trapped 10 turns from the ottoman border.

Spoiler 1020AD :

Dow greece. We split our army and take Pharsalos and Rhodes on turn 2 of the war, then army group north clears, well, the north, and group south pushes towards Athens. Sure enough, Hanni dowed 1 turn after us, and Pericles army is likely on its way west, although the invading Carthaginian army is just 1 turn away. Gotta be quick. Not bribing off Hannibal (yet).

Spoiler Cossacks were doing fine until they encountered... :

The mighty chariots of Pericles! Needless to say, they were still doing fine after. Idk what he was doing. He did have iron and a few knights here and there. Not that it would have made a difference. Cossacks are shredding.

Note that Willem is about to finish communism. Boudica had acquired lib in the meantime, and there was no way we could beat her to it. Better have my vassal get the spy.

1070 AD, 6 cities down, pericles is ready to give up. We take economics in the peace deal, and trade MT and lib for scimet and 200 cash. Not bad.

 

[redmeat]

Spoiler Next in line on our march to the east :

Next turn, Boudica dows Hannibal. She has 11 cities, usually a big army (I do not have an observer in place), Hanni was weak all game, now at 6 cities and his army at Pericles border.. dangerous. I could bribe her off with rifling, but would prefer to use it against her first. So, off to get Hannibal while he's still twitching with half our guys wounded.

Dow Hannibal 1100AD.

Luckily he has nothing in the west, defending from Boudica, so we take Mycenae on turn 1, Carthage on turn 2, and he gives in after refusing to talk one more turn - 1120AD. Some of our guys have healed in the meantime and reinforcements are still coming, so we dow Boudica right away.

I don't care if she gets rifling now. Want to kill her army, which certainly will go back to hit the Hanni city she was just teleported from.

Next turn, she predictably started bombarding with 1 treb and a handfull of catapults. We don't have the numbers yet to kill her main stack, not fully healed, so we take Verlamion and clear maybe 20 units in and around it. She'll bombard in the meantime.

1150AD

Lots of green from The Great facing down the brown empress. Did I say cossacks are shredding? We take half of communism in the cap deal. Boudica was quite clearly the biggest threat on this map. I can easily see her taking over Joao and Hannibal, ending up with 20+ cities and/or 2 vassals early on. She was way out-teching us as it was with her 11 cities (10 after she had lost one a little while ago to Joao's AP cheese).

 

[redmeat]

Spoiler 1150AD-end :

Suleiman has had rifling for a while, and Joao is close. A couple turns ago, he had briefly snapped out of wfyabta, and Willem would offer chemistry and 600 gold for rifling, Joao not even chemistry on its own. Next turn we'll trade up, get chemistry from Willem and physics from Pericles, in turn giving it to willem for steel in 3 turns. I had sent Pericles for Electricity earlier, but Boudica is equally close without chemistry, so Peri will get us Biology instead. We haven't self-teched anything ourselves since rifling (except backfilling compass and optics and half of communism). With Joao on rifles once we get to hit him, 52% land area, the decision is to not push through with cossacks and air ships. It may work, but Joao settled that far away island and may not even give in with tons of war success.

What to do? No great people, no golden age anywhere near, break even slider is now 10%. Ouch. Gotta eat some anarchy for more appropriate civics. With 24 cities I get 3 civic swaps for 2 turns of anarchy, so I size down from 26 by giving back Mycenae and Verlamion. Ideally I'd switch all of them - I choose nationalism, theocracy, state property. We'll whip cannons and draft rifles while our cossacks set out to have their great great grandchildren arrive home in a century. It takes 10(!) turns to get our wounded cossacks from Boudica's border back to the home front. Suleiman had accepted another 1 gold beg once the first one ran out, and we have 8 turns of peace treaty left. Incidentally, 12 turns to take out Pericles and Hannibal and Boudica is not too shabby. Things have gone worse in other games. To make extra sure he doesn't hit us before it's convenient, we pay him 300ish gold to switch into free religion before the civic swap so he doesn't get too upset about our heathen jewry.

1280AD we're more than ready.

4 great generals getting 16 cannons to cr3. Still haven't self-teched anything - everything brokered. Will get steam power in 3, artillery in 5, golden age in 7. Saving money to self tech assembly line as the first noteworthy tech since rifling.

1350AD The war went predictably smoothly, he capped after 3 cities including Istanbul.

I take railroad thankyouverymuch. He actually offered Vladivostok back and I don't know why I didn't take it. Would have allowed me to upgrade there while my transports are on the move. Would have made for a t200 finish with 6 galleons built and Suleiman having combustion for trade. Alas.

Anyway, dowed Joao 1400AD with artillery, some infantry plus cossacks, took 2 cities the next turn and he capped.

Now - the final beast, the great menace - Washington of America! Whose colony Joao had liberated earlier. The bastard wouldn't even offer to switch to caste system in the capitulation deal. "Surely I must be joking" or some such. As if "emancipating" his horses will save him. It's not like he had anything else to offer. Thought for a minute to take him out, but couldn't be bothered. I'll just come back as Stalin and nuke his sorry ass next time around. Maybe his offspring. Roosevelt would be a good choice. I'll get the Kremlin, too, whipping tactical nukes and submarines. This time Willem built it in Maastricht, after spending millenia in its jungles.

oh, and of course, as promised

 

[redmeat]

Spoiler verdict :

This is a really great map for learning. Forgiving enough to up the difficulty a notch with a good but not broken leader, tight enough to highlight your mistakes. And a super fun stomper at that. Thanks, @AcaMetis!

One thing that made everything unusually convenient here was that we hit most people before democracy, so happy cap was phenomenal with tons of resources and almost no emancipation anger. Could have non-stop drafted for another 200 years without slider, also because creative really helped getting captured cities to 10% culture. That and Sistine in Amsterdam.

Early tech path is worth discussing imho, late tech path was easy: rifling - assembly line - flight.
Actually, in more seriousness, I just happened to pay really close attention with trade timings and attempting embargoes where applicable. It's really easy to miss the mark here and sometimes unavoidable to have your vassals trade with each other and lock you out. Also, I didn't make any real diplo mistakes here, that helps.

Biggest mistake: not enough chopping, not enough workers in particular for irrigation spreads. At least Willem has the excuse of not chopping useless jungle, we don't have any, since our forests could have morphed directly into workers. For more chopping. Forests for snowballs.

General remark on Nobles Club: I really like those kinds of maps - ones that *feature* the leader, rather than being an awkward setup that all but counters the traits and starting techs. The way I have played Nobles Club maps in the past is a bit like turning the setup around: if the answer to the question "with this start, might I choose to play this leader?" is a resounding "no fing way!", I usually don't play. At least until I read all the spoilers and there is something else that seems enticing. Just an opinion, and subjective feedback on how I've chosen to play maps from this thread.

Either way, when I played maps in the past it's usually late, and then I don't feel like doing a writeup on a thread that feels like necroing. But I really enjoyed this map and I binged it over a couple of days, so you'll get a report for once. Hopefully someone finds it mildly entertaining and/or educational.

 

[Jerry_23]

the aestetics route may not be the best for noble. It is used for trade on higher levels, but AIs may delay a lot more in reaching Alphabet on Noble difficulty. Also, you are building a monument on St Petersburg. That is used for popping borders, but creative already is doing that job. They may also be useful with charismatic or to build the statue of Zeus, but little else. In any case, enjoy your game!

I was rushing for the great Library

 

[Jerry_23]

Spoiler T148: First Cap :

I just captured the Ottomans while I was improving the rest and expanding. I’ll use the next few turns to invest more in gold because right now I only have 30% tech with –37 gold .
Luckily I’m really far ahead in tech, so that should be fine.
I have to say, I actually really like the game. I expected William to be a major opponent, but all that jungle it’s not that bad after all.

 

[redmeat]

Spoiler T148: First Cap :

View attachment 753896
View attachment 753897
View attachment 753898
I just captured the Ottomans while I was improving the rest and expanding. I’ll use the next few turns to invest more in gold because right now I only have 30% tech with –37 gold .
Luckily I’m really far ahead in tech, so that should be fine.
I have to say, I actually really like the game. I expected William to be a major opponent, but all that jungle it’s not that bad after all.

I agree, I also really liked this game.

The most immediately important tech to get after early war when you're struggling with the economy is what you're teching: currency. It close to doubles your trade route income, it allows you to build wealth, and it allows you to trade tech and resources for gold. These combined will fix your economic problems. Don't get side tracked by markets, they don't help here.
It's in fact so useful that I would argue that you should trade for it, rather than teching it. With whom? That depends a little on what you are planning to do. If you want to get the music artist, I wouldn't give literature or drama to willem or pericles. Both like going for music. In this case, why not give metal casting to willem? If you want to attack willem soon and don't want to give him military techs, I would go for military myself and not music, in which case you can give the music prerequisites to pericles for currency. Or to willem. If he can go for music, he may delay longbows, which favors your war effort.

Another popular thing to do for large cash injections is failgold: build a wonder without finishing it in many cities for which you have the bonus resource. Shwedegon Paya would be applicable here. It can turn 20 forests into 1200 gold - 1500 if you have forges and are running organized religion.

If you want more advice on the specifics, just ask. Many here are more than happy to give detailed suggestions on "the best thing to do".

 

[Jerry_23]

I agree, I also really liked this game.

The most immediately important tech to get after early war when you're struggling with the economy is what you're teching: currency. It close to doubles your trade route income, it allows you to build wealth, and it allows you to trade tech and resources for gold. These combined will fix your economic problems. Don't get side tracked by markets, they don't help here.
It's in fact so useful that I would argue that you should trade for it, rather than teching it. With whom? That depends a little on what you are planning to do. If you want to get the music artist, I wouldn't give literature or drama to willem or pericles. Both like going for music. In this case, why not give metal casting to willem? If you want to attack willem soon and don't want to give him military techs, I would go for military myself and not music, in which case you can give the music prerequisites to pericles for currency. Or to willem. If he can go for music, he may delay longbows, which favors your war effort.

Another popular thing to do for large cash injections is failgold: build a wonder without finishing it in many cities for which you have the bonus resource. Shwedegon Paya would be applicable here. It can turn 20 forests into 1200 gold - 1500 if you have forges and are running organized religion.

If you want more advice on the specifics, just ask. Many here are more than happy to give detailed suggestions on "the best thing to do".

Its not a big problem the gold output.I actually traded for the Currency tech. I saw the Ottomans were going for it, so that worked out well. I’m currently at turn 200 and still at 50%, but I’m way ahead in tech and I’ve already captured William. Now I’m going to start on the next one: Greece!!!

Normally I play two difficulty levels higher than this, but I thought I’d join the Nobles’ Club.

 

[redmeat]

Its not a big problem the gold output.I actually traded for the Currency tech. I saw the Ottomans were going for it, so that worked out well. I’m currently at turn 200 and still at 50%, but I’m way ahead in tech and I’ve already captured William. Now I’m going to start on the next one: Greece!!!

Normally I play two difficulty levels higher than this, but I thought I’d join the Nobles’ Club.

I think most people here play difficulties other than noble. What helped me personally reading these threads is just to see what better players are doing, how they approach the map. Although many don't seem to be playing themselves (anymore), much of the advice is applicable across difficulties.

Here, I'd actually be curious to see different proposals of the path to the classical era. I don't think it's necessarily trivial. I actually replayed the opening today (with barbs on, because without barbs at least deity is almost always easier for a number of reasons). Even with map knowledge, I didn't do much better. My intuition of earlier writing was tough to put into practice. Commerce is just really tight and I have a hard time seeing how early pottery isn't almost forced. Although I did squeeze writing before fishing this time, it didn't result in an earlier academy. Going wheel/fishing - pottery - writing is the main unexplored option that seems possibly viable. But then we either let Suleiman settle our southern border, or we keep the pigs unimproved for ages. Captured a barb city that spawned very early in the north which resulted in a slightly different settling pattern and reached col a few turns earlier, chopped more, had more workers, but other than that the outcome wasn't obviously superior.

Anyway, enjoy your game!

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Here, I'd actually be curious to see different proposals of the path to the classical era.

I played turns on this map and did many things similar to you.

Spoiler :

Settler at size 2 is defensible : thanks to IMP, the capital actually does 10 hpt before the corn is improved. I think I grew to 4 and whipped, so as to get some extra commerce from the floodplains.
Researching BW + AH will naturally delay Writing and I didn't get a Library earlier than you did. It's possible that delaying a settler for city 5+ could result in a better Academy timing.
There is a lot of land to expand into and no urgency to research military techs. Going straight to Civil Service via a Code of Laws opening makes total sense.

My main point of contention is the dotmap, starting from city 2, and that does affect the early tech path.
Build orders also have a tremendous effect on the tech pace. I went :
Worker 1, city 2, Worker 2, Worker 3, city 3, Worker 4, city 4, Worker 5, Worker 6, cities 5, 6, 7. Worker 7.
Worker 4 over city 4 is necessary to speed up the Pottery timing. Workers 5 & 6 are means to speed up the Writing timing.

Please note that going "early Pottery" has no impact if you lack the workforce or even the population to work cottages.
This is not just a matter of more workers or more chopping but a matter of sequencing. Having more workers earlier lets you have less workers later, since the worker turns required to improve a definite area are fixed.

I have no save pre-T50 but this is what I can look at :

Spoiler :

Now, Pottery isn't particularly early but the extra workforce does ensure I can cottage steadily. With other priorities out of the way, yes, I will stack up 3 workers to cottage the floodplains.
Note how sharing specials (corn in St Petersburg, wheat in Novgorod, copper in Rostov) helped developing the new cities faster.

T80, I'm still on 6 workers and claimed the same amount of land you did with 7 cities to your 9. This means less production by the time of a war build up but also less maintenance in the more critical early turns.

Spoiler :

I'm running some amount of scientists in St Petersburg and Novgorod. I actually missed a beat a should have gotten the 7th worker already (better than running specs in Novgorod).
I will revolt into Caste + HR as soon as possible. This is the secondary reason why this entry point into the Classical Era is so convenient. It's not just the Civil Service beeline, it's also the civics it unlocks.
Yakutsk has been properly delayed to city 7, where it belongs, and its 2 floodplains will be farmed.

T95 : 200 bpt has been breached and this is Civil Service :

Spoiler :

This is before revolt. Moscow is doing some 50+ commerce.
I have a settler en route in the north to claim some jungle resources. Novgorod and St Petersburg share Great Scientist duties (both around 95-100 gpp).
The North, for what it's worth :

Spoiler :

I'm not quite sure about the tech path, at this point, but it's probably Music (as you did) to get trading materials and the free artist.
Hope that helps, even though, as I said, this is pretty similar to what you did. A faster Library is the main way I'd seek to improve over this (delaying cities 6 or 7 is no big deal).
The map is pretty generous overall, naturally securing rather large borders.

 

[redmeat]

I played turns on this map and did many things similar to you.

Spoiler :

Settler at size 2 is defensible : thanks to IMP, the capital actually does 10 hpt before the corn is improved. I think I grew to 4 and whipped, so as to get some extra commerce from the floodplains.
Researching BW + AH will naturally delay Writing and I didn't get a Library earlier than you did. It's possible that delaying a settler for city 5+ could result in a better Academy timing.
There is a lot of land to expand into and no urgency to research military techs. Going straight to Civil Service via a Code of Laws opening makes total sense.

My main point of contention is the dotmap, starting from city 2, and that does affect the early tech path.
Build orders also have a tremendous effect on the tech pace. I went :
Worker 1, city 2, Worker 2, Worker 3, city 3, Worker 4, city 4, Worker 5, Worker 6, cities 5, 6, 7. Worker 7.
Worker 4 over city 4 is necessary to speed up the Pottery timing. Workers 5 & 6 are means to speed up the Writing timing.

Please note that going "early Pottery" has no impact if you lack the workforce or even the population to work cottages.
This is not just a matter of more workers or more chopping but a matter of sequencing. Having more workers earlier lets you have less workers later, since the worker turns required to improve a definite area are fixed.

I have no save pre-T50 but this is what I can look at :

Spoiler :

View attachment 754099


View attachment 754101

Now, Pottery isn't particularly early but the extra workforce does ensure I can cottage steadily. With other priorities out of the way, yes, I will stack up 3 workers to cottage the floodplains.
Note how sharing specials (corn in St Petersburg, wheat in Novgorod, copper in Rostov) helped developing the new cities faster.

T80, I'm still on 6 workers and claimed the same amount of land you did with 7 cities to your 9. This means less production by the time of a war build up but also less maintenance in the more critical early turns.

Spoiler :

View attachment 754102

I'm running some amount of scientists in St Petersburg and Novgorod. I actually missed a beat a should have gotten the 7th worker already (better than running specs in Novgorod).
I will revolt into Caste + HR as soon as possible. This is the secondary reason why this entry point into the Classical Era is so convenient. It's not just the Civil Service beeline, it's also the civics it unlocks.
Yakutsk has been properly delayed to city 7, where it belongs, and its 2 floodplains will be farmed.

T95 : 200 bpt has been breached and this is Civil Service :

Spoiler :

View attachment 754103

This is before revolt. Moscow is doing some 50+ commerce.
I have a settler en route in the north to claim some jungle resources. Novgorod and St Petersburg share Great Scientist duties (both around 95-100 gpp).
The North, for what it's worth :

Spoiler :

View attachment 754104

I'm not quite sure about the tech path, at this point, but it's probably Music (as you did) to get trading materials and the free artist.
Hope that helps, even though, as I said, this is pretty similar to what you did. A faster Library is the main way I'd seek to improve over this (delaying cities 6 or 7 is no big deal).
The map is pretty generous overall, naturally securing rather large borders.

Spoiler :

Excellent points, thanks for chipping in.

In particular this strikes me as the key to "optimizing" this start:

This is not just a matter of more workers or more chopping but a matter of sequencing.

The sequencing is not obvious to me here. Not in build orders, not in tech, not in settling. I did lack net workers on the first go though - that much is certain.

I had started a third go a little while ago to attempt bw - fishing - wheel - pottery - writing/ah, but forgot to give the barbs starting techs (not used to playing with barbs) and Willem captured the barb city that spawned on the gold at like 2200bc. Also:

Is this the barbs getting circumnavigation on turn 36? Have never seen this before.

Played to pottery anyway (spending considerable turns working the lake in Moscow)

Your choice for St Petersburg is interesting. To me it felt "too rich" - too many good tiles that can't be worked or shared until much later. It solves the Suleiman settling problem though. And we could squeeze another city 3S of Moscow later to take over tiles while others run specialists. I'll think about it some more before having another go.

Yakutsk has been properly delayed to city 7, where it belongs

Completely agree. This crystallized in my later attempts as well. It's not the right 3rd city.

Regarding the north, I quite liked how making 3 cities out of the seafood and the cows (sharing rice) in the west worked out. Will see and decide on the fly in the next round.

(I didn't go Music, I ended up phil, nat, paper, edu before backfilling music.)

How did you balance garrison warrior builds with auto connecting the copper with the road to St Petersburg?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

The sequencing is not obvious to me here.

Agreed. As far as T50, a number of things don't fall exactly in place and are off by a turn or two.

Spoiler :

The main issue is how tech hungry the start is, especially if you consider settling an S-tier city as your second (and why wouldn't you ? There is no such thing as "too rich". Just stagnate on workers while you wait on your happy cap to rise, if you're worried about it).
Going Bronze into AH wastes a lot of much needed commerce. Inserting The Wheel in between is my way to be "commerce conscious", as you put it. Pottery, I will maintain, is premature, unless you're postponing AH until after the Alpha trade.
Now, The Wheel means that St Petersburg expands borders before AH is researched. Novgorod is also settled before Fishing is researched (Wheel -> AH gives faster Fishing than the reverse). Sharing the corn and then the wheat from Moscow means the capital city has some awkward growth timings.

As far as sequencing goes, I regard my T54 screenshot as a key point to respect maintenance hits. And, contrary to other people's beliefs, I do not think this is difficulty dependent. I would do the same on Monarch difficulty (except I would research Maths, Priesthood, CoL and attempt to Oracle Civil Service).

So, you're right that the copper auto-connect is actually a handicap, here. I did with 2 warriors for the longest time, started Barracks when I thought I couldn't complete a unit.
T54, my 2nd warrior is coming back to garrison Moscow. I also have 19 hammers into an Axe in St Petersburg but, in the end, I let the hammers go to waste as the city shifted from workers/settlers to infrastructure.
Eventually, I traded the copper for gold with some AI (Joao ?) and that let me build a couple more warriors with the horses from Novgorod.

As far as "the North" goes, you may very well be right that the area is best used to place as many cities as possible. With a block against Willem and Code of Laws in sight, it might be better to have a higher global happy cap and better production for the first war. It certainly makes sense if you're worried about production. It's also true that my setup would likely reach a plateau before yours (unless I could steal some jungle from Willem... because I'd not placed my cities so close together...).
Otherwise, once you have the happy cap (we do), it is cheaper and easier to set up a single city, not only for tile improvements but also for infrastructure (forests being a limited resource and being dumped into infra, for example). Having some "super cities" also make it easier to contemplate builds like National Wonders. Being CRE and having dyes, the Globe Theatre isn't entirely out of question in my Yaroslav, nor is the Heroic Epic.
I have a tendency to over-value research over production and to consider science victory conditions (meaning Universities). So, I myself will take my opinion on this matter with a grain of salt. I'm much more confident about the first 4 cities.

I would never backfill south of Moscow once the city has reached size 10+. At T95, I have 3 helpers and Moscow is almost "running out of tiles" (4 more green tiles to cottage). I could consider backfilling in the north, like 3S and/or 3N of Yekaterinburg. Granary, Lighthouse, Barracks, go. As it is, an extra city in the south would likely steal tiles from more valuable cities.

Fair enough @your tech path after Civil Service. In some part it depends on what the AIs are doing and Philo can certainly make sense (I read about your 250 AD GA and 400 AD Lib, and that makes for a convincing argument).



Edit : Looking back and thinking on it (but not doing the simple maths) :
There's a non zero chance I made a mistake borrowing the copper with Rostov to build a 5 turns workboat at size 1.
The city might just as well grow on floodplains, floodplains (same food output as size 1 clams), then borrow the copper at size 3. It's probably relatively close as far as Rostov's development goes but it would certainly translate in a higher output from St Petersburg.
Edit 2 : It is, in fact, a clear mistake on my part, since size 2 Rostov can actually work floodplains, cows. Oh, the virtues of looking back.

 

[redmeat]

Agreed. As far as T50, a number of things don't fall exactly in place and are off by a turn or two.

Spoiler :

The main issue is how tech hungry the start is, especially if you consider settling an S-tier city as your second (and why wouldn't you ? There is no such thing as "too rich". Just stagnate on workers while you wait on your happy cap to rise, if you're worried about it).
Going Bronze into AH wastes a lot of much needed commerce. Inserting The Wheel in between is my way to be "commerce conscious", as you put it. Pottery, I will maintain, is premature, unless you're postponing AH until after the Alpha trade.
Now, The Wheel means that St Petersburg expands borders before AH is researched. Novgorod is also settled before Fishing is researched (Wheel -> AH gives faster Fishing than the reverse). Sharing the corn and then the wheat from Moscow means the capital city has some awkward growth timings.

As far as sequencing goes, I regard my T54 screenshot as a key point to respect maintenance hits. And, contrary to other people's beliefs, I do not think this is difficulty dependent. I would do the same on Monarch difficulty (except I would research Maths, Priesthood, CoL and attempt to Oracle Civil Service).

So, you're right that the copper auto-connect is actually a handicap, here. I did with 2 warriors for the longest time, started Barracks when I thought I couldn't complete a unit.
T54, my 2nd warrior is coming back to garrison Moscow. I also have 19 hammers into an Axe in St Petersburg but, in the end, I let the hammers go to waste as the city shifted from workers/settlers to infrastructure.
Eventually, I traded the copper for gold with some AI (Joao ?) and that let me build a couple more warriors with the horses from Novgorod.

As far as "the North" goes, you may very well be right that the area is best used to place as many cities as possible. With a block against Willem and Code of Laws in sight, it might be better to have a higher global happy cap and better production for the first war. It certainly makes sense if you're worried about production. It's also true that my setup would likely reach a plateau before yours (unless I could steal some jungle from Willem... because I'd not placed my cities so close together...).
Otherwise, once you have the happy cap (we do), it is cheaper and easier to set up a single city, not only for tile improvements but also for infrastructure (forests being a limited resource and being dumped into infra, for example). Having some "super cities" also make it easier to contemplate builds like National Wonders. Being CRE and having dyes, the Globe Theatre isn't entirely out of question in my Yaroslav, nor is the Heroic Epic.
I have a tendency to over-value research over production and to consider science victory conditions (meaning Universities). So, I myself will take my opinion on this matter with a grain of salt. I'm much more confident about the first 4 cities.

I would never backfill south of Moscow once the city has reached size 10+. At T95, I have 3 helpers and Moscow is almost "running out of tiles" (4 more green tiles to cottage). I could consider backfilling in the north, like 3S and/or 3N of Yekaterinburg. Granary, Lighthouse, Barracks, go. As it is, an extra city in the south would likely steal tiles from more valuable cities.

Fair enough @your tech path after Civil Service. In some part it depends on what the AIs are doing and Philo can certainly make sense (I read about your 250 AD GA and 400 AD Lib, and that makes for a convincing argument).



Edit : Looking back and thinking on it (but not doing the simple maths) :
There's a non zero chance I made a mistake borrowing the copper with Rostov to build a 5 turns workboat at size 1.
The city might just as well grow on floodplains, floodplains (same food output as size 1 clams), then borrow the copper at size 3. It's probably relatively close as far as Rostov's development goes but it would certainly translate in a higher output from St Petersburg.
Edit 2 : It is, in fact, a clear mistake on my part, since size 2 Rostov can actually work floodplains, cows. Oh, the virtues of looking back.

Spoiler All right, so I played this start again.. :

.. with barbs on, contrary to the first attempt.

I settled your St Petersburg, but I built several more warriors than you, had 3 fogbusters in the north, which seemed required to cover the space including the gold. I'm not experienced playing with barbs, so have very little trust in my judgment. The maintenance obviously hurt.

The timing of the first settler is very close between wheat-mine-chop (size2), wheat-corn-chop (size3), wheat-corn-whip. I think a 1 turn difference each in increasing order. The whip seems to be the fastest start, esp if worker one then chops another worker before mining the copper, both then proceed to road, as I think you did.

So I went wheel, AH, fishing, pottery. The plan was to settle clam 3rd because it's auto connected with st petersburg, and leave the fish spot (at 4) unconnected to build garrison warriors on the horses. I think that went all right. Clam can 5-turn a work boat on the copper, which is nice too.

My earlier remark that the academy came "way to late" was, well, way too optimistic I think. It doesn't look like that's easily achievable unless sacrificing something major. AH, pottery, expansion.. and it's not clear to me that that would be advisable. You said something similar.

I definitely see the trade route argument, but still, I didn't improve on the col date at all, and am not getting close to your 500bc cc date. Higher early maintenance is certainly not all of it. There were things that helped in the first attempt. That north eastern desert hill city was really useful for cottage sharing, esp since we went pottery before fishing and AH with very limited happy cap. So IF we go pottery before fishing I'd argue it's actually a pretty good choice for a 3rd city (although 2 west to eventually grab the cows is prob better) - it's the tech path that invalidates it early. Also, having the southern pig city was great for running scientists without sacrificing the growing of cottages and more than enough chops for library.

Anyway, I still find it tricky, but am also starting to be sloppy (not paying attention to diplo and such). Will give it a rest for now.

Thanks for playing and for your input!

edit: written before reading your edits, as perhaps apparent

edit2: as to your monarch science victory game, may I suggest that after oracle cc you lib superconductors. Then it's just 1-2 turns to communism. And since you have an engineer waiting to rush the kremlin, it's only 2 more turns until you 2 pop whip research institutes in 25 cities. It's Cathy, after all. Bonus points if you pull it off before glib gets built

 

[Jerry_23]

Spoiler Turn 248 ( end stats) :

Just finished my run.
Its a Domination Win.

This was a pretty fun game. The first 100 turns were quite tough because of your starting location, but after I took out the Ottomans it became really easy, since your army basically only has to move in one direction. You also don’t have to worry about suddenly being attacked from another side. That’s also kind of the reason why I normally don’t play these kinds of maps. Despite that, this was fun.

I tried to make use of Catherine’s skills as much as possible. I just think it’s a bit of a shame that Russia really comes alive ate the late game. You get Cossack's pretty late, and by then my game was basically already over. And don’t even get me started on the unique building. I was nowhere near that yet.

 

[redmeat]

Spoiler Turn 248 ( end stats) :

Just finished my run.
Its a Domination Win.
View attachment 754208
View attachment 754209
View attachment 754210
This was a pretty fun game. The first 100 turns were quite tough because of your starting location, but after I took out the Ottomans it became really easy, since your army basically only has to move in one direction. You also don’t have to worry about suddenly being attacked from another side. That’s also kind of the reason why I normally don’t play these kinds of maps. Despite that, this was fun.

I tried to make use of Catherine’s skills as much as possible. I just think it’s a bit of a shame that Russia really comes alive ate the late game. You get Cossack's pretty late, and by then my game was basically already over. And don’t even get me started on the unique building. I was nowhere near that yet.

Congrats

Spoiler :

Your start was perhaps at least partly tough because you settled the wheat and farmed the floodplains. Worker first and improving the grains is faster and gives better yields.

Agreed on the Ottomans in your case. Suleiman is a dangerous character to have in your back without solid diplo. The only reason I let him live until next to last was because I got him to friendly relatively early with gift city and hereditary rule.

 

[konata_LS]

I have no save pre-T50 but this is what I can look at :

Spoiler :

View attachment 754099

It's hard to imagine -

Spoiler :

It's hard to imagine Joao put Magellan in a Fishing boat and sailed around the world .
Historians say the Age of Discovery happened in 2160BC on deity

Either way, when I played maps in the past it's usually late, and then I don't feel like doing a writeup on a thread that feels like necroing. But I really enjoyed this map and I binged it over a couple of days, so you'll get a report for once.

As Krikav used to say, it's never late to play old NC games.

 

[redmeat]

As Krikav used to say, it's never late to play old NC games

I agree! I was talking about reporting on it. Discussions seem to happen early and then drop off quickly. Perhaps my favorite ever was 194 Ragnar

Spoiler :

In one of my attempts circumnav happened 2560BC, t36, which led me to wonder whether barbs can get circumnav just from random spawns (see image in post #33 above). This was before I even met anyone other than Suleiman. I guess it's theoretically possibe that Joao sent a work boat past before I reached my own coast. If he sends another one past Boudica, he could just about make it.

 

[Build2Much]

Immortal 1876AD Domination that I almost lost to 3 different Civs via Culture...

Spoiler I definitely played this improperly, but it worked I guess! :

First things first...I just read through the thread and I thought the 1360BC circumnavigation by Joao was early in my game, guess not!

I settled 1E, which was a little weird, but worked out well. Everyone got along other than Hannibal and Boudica so we just kept teching and trading for a long time. Eventually I decided to wipe out the Ottomans with cossacks, went smoothly, back to teching with a much bigger empire than everyone else and founded Mining Inc (and much later Sushi) for a change rather than go state property. That turned out to be important - +18 hammers by the end.

I began preparing to head east to take out the Dutch on land. Then I noticed that Carthage was creeping towards Culture so started building up a little faster. Hannibal vassaled Boudica and then also attacked Joao and was beating him down. Joao peace vassaled to me, luckily I had built some transports and was able to start shuttling my tanks west, captured Lisbon and started working across. Decided to check the victory screen and suddenly the Dutch (who had been building the electricity and radio wonders) were under 15 turns from Culture victory! I wasn't sure if I could do it from this point.

Fortunately I hadn't completely moved everything over and could 1-3 turn tanks most places and I was able to capture one of the culture cities with 5 turns to spare. Fighting on 2 fronts I wiped out what was left of the Celts and got enough of the Carthaginians that they vassaled and after taking Amsterdam the Dutch also vassaled - just in time because the Greeks were 11 turns from Culture when I hit domination (I would have gotten there in time, but still too close for comfort). I'm pretty sure Carthage was also still very close based on the graphs.

Spoiler couple photos :

GG, thanks for the map! I absolutely would have lost this on Immortal playing this strategy a year ago. Getting better!