Nobles' Club Bullpen: Fourth Cycle

[dutchfire]

Moderator Action: Done

 

[elitetroops]

Not many active map makers around, it seems. But fear not, I have a Bismarck map ready to go tomorrow or Saturday.

Some planning is needed for the coming rounds after this. Nobody suggested any leaders they wanted to play, so I went ahead and came up with two alternative plans on my own.

Current situation (after Bismarck game):

• All traits played 3 times, except CHA only twice.
• The following civilizations have 2 leaders still to come in this cycle:
  • Russian
  • English
  • Persian
  • Mongol
  • Egyptian
  • American
  • Chinese
  • Ottoman

The list of unplayed/unscheduled leaders, in alphabetical order:

Spoiler :

• Alexander (Agg/Phi)
• Asoka (Org/Spi)
• Augustus Caesar (Imp/Ind)
• Brennus (Spi/Cha)
• Catherine (Cre/Imp)
• Charlemagne (Imp/Pro)
• Churchill (Cha/Pro)
• Cyrus (Cha/Imp)
• Darius I (Fin/Org)
• De Gaulle (Cha/Ind)
• Elizabeth (Fin/Phi)
• Frederick (Phi/Org)
• Genghis Khan (Agg/Imp)
• Gilgamesh (Cre/Pro)
• Hannibal (Fin/Cha)
• Hatchepsut (Cre/Spi)
• Huayna Capac (Fin/Ind)
• Isabella (Exp/Spi)
• Joao (Imp/Exp)
• Kublai Khan (Agg/Cre)
• Lincoln (Cha/Phi)
• Mansa Musa (Fin/Spi)
• Mao Zedong (Exp/Pro)
• Mehmed II (Org/Exp)
• Montezuma (Agg/Spi)
• Napoleon (Cha/Org)
• Peter the Great (Exp/Phi)
• Qin Shi Huang (Ind/Pro)
• Ragnar (Agg/Fin)
• Ramesses II (Spi/Ind)
• Roosevelt (Ind/Org)
• Shaka (Agg/Exp)
• Sulieman (Imp/Phi)
• Suryavaraman II (Cre/Exp)
• Tokugawa (Agg/Pro)
• Willem (Cre/Fin)

With this in mind, I made 2 different suggestion for the next round of 6 games:

A)

• Hannibal (Fin/Cha)
• Montezuma (Spi/Agg)
• Qin Shi Huang (Ind/Pro)
• Mehmed II (Org/Exp)
• Catherine (Cre/Imp)
• Lincoln (Cha/Phi)

B)

• Napoleon (Cha/Org)
• Hatchepsut (Cre/Spi)
• Shaka (Agg/Exp)
• Suleiman (Imp/Phi)
• Huayna Capac (Fin/Ind)
• Churchill (Cha/Pro)

Both options include all traits once, except CHA twice. Both options include 4 civs that still have another game to come this cycle.

Feedback on which option to choose is very welcome! Also, if you have any ideas of suitable map types for the listed leaders, please say so! And as always, map makers can sign up for any game they would like to prepare a map for. (In the absence of other map makers I don't mind creating maps, quite enjoy it actually, but it would still be good with some more variety.)

Of the two options, I'm slightly leaning towards option B, because there hasn't been any Egyptian or Persian games still this cycle, so we have 4 chariot UU games still to come. Better to get one out of the way. With Hatty and HC, it has two strong early rushers, don't know if that's the best. But maybe HC could also be interesting to play on a map that doesn't offer an opportunity for Quechua rush... If there is ever going to be an isolation NC game, HC would at least make for an easier introduction to isolation games. Or maybe he could be put in semi-isolation so the players can choose if they wish to grab cities or to rather keep a friend alive.

Let me know what you think!

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

Of the two options, I'm slightly leaning towards option B, because there hasn't been any Egyptian or Persian games still this cycle, so we have 4 chariot UU games still to come. Better to get one out of the way. With Hatty and HC, it has two strong early rushers, don't know if that's the best. But maybe HC could also be interesting to play on a map that doesn't offer an opportunity for Quechua rush... If there is ever going to be an isolation NC game, HC would at least make for an easier introduction to isolation games. Or maybe he could be put in semi-isolation so the players can choose if they wish to grab cities or to rather keep a friend alive.

I prefer option B. Mostly because of the reasons you already listed. In general I think using the traits as the primary parameter of variety is kinda weird. Cyrus and Hatseput are kinda similar in playstyle, both being excellent early rushers and good and very good respectively, as you allude to yourself, despite sharing no traits. On the other hand, Saladin, Ram, Qin have only 3 traits between them, but play quite differently as leaders.

Leaders in the B list have more variety between them, I feel. Especially Mehmed, Catherine into Lincoln is a long stretch of leaders without really appealing UU, or UB. I can't really claim they are super similar, but they all feel like middle of the road solid leaders without something super special.

HC for a (semi)-isolated start sounds interesting.

However, I'd be very grateful to anyone willing to go through the trouble of giving us an entertaining NC.

 

[Gator Country]

Not many active map makers around, it seems. But fear not, I have a Bismarck map ready to go tomorrow or Saturday.

Regarding this, I'm still learning how to play the game really well (I just got my first victory at Prince level last week, space with Willem on a continents map), and I have very limited exposure to the World Builder, but I'm eager to learn more, and I'm also eager to try to pay you guys back for some of the invaluable advice you've given that has helped me to improve my game even to the point where it's currently at.

I think I would really enjoy making Noble's Club maps, but I would certainly need some help and pointers getting started. Are there any reference threads you could point me to so I could start reading up on it? I'll look them over, and if I decide this is something I can learn to do reasonably well, and if someone doesn't mind holding my hand for a bit, I'd like to at least try a couple of maps, submit them for critique, and then decide if I have any real talent at map making.

 

[Pangaea]

I've been pee-ing into the wind with my mapmaking skills recently, so probably best I stay clear

 

[yyeah]

I like option A, simply becouse thers a lot of leaders witch i didnt play a long time and i was planning to do it like Lincoln, Mehmed II even Qin i didnt finish last game with him.
I would like to play again Qin on B&S.
1 more thing i more like Napoleon in A, its just personal preferences.

 

[elitetroops]

I think I would really enjoy making Noble's Club maps, but I would certainly need some help and pointers getting started. Are there any reference threads you could point me to so I could start reading up on it? I'll look them over, and if I decide this is something I can learn to do reasonably well, and if someone doesn't mind holding my hand for a bit, I'd like to at least try a couple of maps, submit them for critique, and then decide if I have any real talent at map making.

"Map making" is actually a bit misleading term here, as it's really more about finding a map. Usually not many edits are made. After this you have to create the worldbuilder files. The process is explained here.

To find the map you wish to use:

1. Start a game with no special options checked. It is easiest if you set difficulty to noble at this point. AI may or may not be chosen. Map options are often discussed beforehand. Sometimes adding an AI or 2 might be appropriate, especially if it is low sea level.
2. Enter worldbuilder to look at the map.
3. If not happy, you can regenerate inside worldbuilder with the blue planet button in map mode.
4. If the map is almost good enough, you can make some small edits in worldbuilder to fix the problems.
5. Once you are happy with how the map looks in the worldbuilder, save it as a worldbuildersave using the save button in the worldbuilder, then proceed to create the individual files, following the guide in the link above. The first time you do this it will feel like a lot of work, but you eventually get faster. For me it's maybe 10 minutes to create all the different WB-saves. There's also some script out there to do this, but I haven't used it.

The things I look for first in the map:

• Map layout. First thing my eyes goes to the minimap in lower right corner. I usually have a rough idea of what kind of map I'm looking for, so I look at the minimap if this fits the description. Especially when dealing with maps like fractal, there might be a lot of variety in what the landmasses look like. At this point You also see on the minimap where the player is located, so you can see if we would have AI on many different sides, or are stuck on a peninsula from where everybody most likely would have to go through the same AI as first war target to expand. It all depends on what kind of game you want to make.
• Player start. Does it look too weak or too overpowered and how does it relate to starting techs. (NC also has some requirements which follow later.) At this point I also look a bit on the surrounding lands to make sure there's at least room for a 2nd and 3rd city before you have to dive into the jungle or cross some large desert.
• Player and AI starting positions. After this I look at how the civs are divided on the landmasses. Most notably I try to avoid situations where one AI can block off a huge chunk of land and expand to twice the size of anyone else. This causes problems for deity players. I also look at who we have nearby. NC usually avoids starts where you would be squeezed in between several crazy warmongers.

Then there's the NC requirements:

• UU resources should be within reasonable distance of starting location
• All AI should have some early strategic resource within reasonable distance of starting position
• Fresh water at the start (for player and all AI). Most common map scripts take care of this automatically.

These things can be edited if the map is otherwise awesome. In general I prefer swapping resources instead of adding, to not upset the balance of resources in the game. So if we need horse for UU but have iron, I swap that iron with some horse somewhere else on the map. Sometimes I might move the starting scout/warrior, if it otherwise would be likely for players to move away from some strong tile, like wet corn, which cannot be revealed on T0 with the scout/warrior in the original starting position. If you do this, you then have to go into Reveal Tile mode and click Unreveal All to not unreveal any tiles the scouting unit saw in the old position.

It is also possible to swap AI starting positions, but this requires some more work as you will have to change the starting positions while editing the worldbuilder file in a text editor, and you have to make sure you also take care of revealed tiles. In the text editor it is also possible to change which AI are in the game. Sometimes I might change someone if random opponents give too many of the same AI that was in the last game.

In the end, most maps are good maps that will provide an interesting game. It's mostly about choosing one that provides the kind of game you wish to create. And traditionally NC provides quite decent starts. Does not need to be super strong, probably shouldn't be, but also avoid the worst ones with no food but 2 floodplains and no trees to chop.

 

[elitetroops]

I like option A, simply becouse thers a lot of leaders witch i didnt play a long time and i was planning to do it like Lincoln, Mehmed II even Qin i didnt finish last game with him.
I would like to play again Qin on B&S.
1 more thing i more like Napoleon in A, its just personal preferences.

I realized we could avoid the problem with 2 strong early rushers, and add Qin for you, by swapping HC and Churchill for Qin and Hannibal. So I give you option

C)

• Napoleon (Cha/Org)
• Hatchepsut (Cre/Spi)
• Shaka (Agg/Exp)
• Suleiman (Imp/Phi)
• Qin Shi Huang (Ind/Pro)
• Hannibal (Fin/Cha)

Probably my new favorite.

 

[yyeah]

I like everybody here ... Shaka ... Suleiman, looks like a lot of fun .

 

[Alhrath]

Also supporting C, which include Hannibal, one of my favourite

 

[Drakon136]

C looks fine to me. I also have a couple Napoleon maps that I could provide for NC, though one has some fairly extensive edits to it which might not make it optimal.

 

[Gator Country]

"Map making" is actually a bit misleading term here, as it's really more about finding a map. Usually not many edits are made. After this you have to create the worldbuilder files. The process is explained here.

To find the map you wish to use:

1. Start a game with no special options checked. It is easiest if you set difficulty to noble at this point. AI may or may not be chosen. Map options are often discussed beforehand. Sometimes adding an AI or 2 might be appropriate, especially if it is low sea level.
2. Enter worldbuilder to look at the map.
3. If not happy, you can regenerate inside worldbuilder with the blue planet button in map mode.
4. If the map is almost good enough, you can make some small edits in worldbuilder to fix the problems.
5. Once you are happy with how the map looks in the worldbuilder, save it as a worldbuildersave using the save button in the worldbuilder, then proceed to create the individual files, following the guide in the link above. The first time you do this it will feel like a lot of work, but you eventually get faster. For me it's maybe 10 minutes to create all the different WB-saves. There's also some script out there to do this, but I haven't used it.

The things I look for first in the map:

• Map layout. First thing my eyes goes to the minimap in lower right corner. I usually have a rough idea of what kind of map I'm looking for, so I look at the minimap if this fits the description. Especially when dealing with maps like fractal, there might be a lot of variety in what the landmasses look like. At this point You also see on the minimap where the player is located, so you can see if we would have AI on many different sides, or are stuck on a peninsula from where everybody most likely would have to go through the same AI as first war target to expand. It all depends on what kind of game you want to make.
• Player start. Does it look too weak or too overpowered and how does it relate to starting techs. (NC also has some requirements which follow later.) At this point I also look a bit on the surrounding lands to make sure there's at least room for a 2nd and 3rd city before you have to dive into the jungle or cross some large desert.
• Player and AI starting positions. After this I look at how the civs are divided on the landmasses. Most notably I try to avoid situations where one AI can block off a huge chunk of land and expand to twice the size of anyone else. This causes problems for deity players. I also look at who we have nearby. NC usually avoids starts where you would be squeezed in between several crazy warmongers.

Then there's the NC requirements:

• UU resources should be within reasonable distance of starting location
• All AI should have some early strategic resource within reasonable distance of starting position
• Fresh water at the start (for player and all AI). Most common map scripts take care of this automatically.

These things can be edited if the map is otherwise awesome. In general I prefer swapping resources instead of adding, to not upset the balance of resources in the game. So if we need horse for UU but have iron, I swap that iron with some horse somewhere else on the map. Sometimes I might move the starting scout/warrior, if it otherwise would be likely for players to move away from some strong tile, like wet corn, which cannot be revealed on T0 with the scout/warrior in the original starting position. If you do this, you then have to go into Reveal Tile mode and click Unreveal All to not unreveal any tiles the scouting unit saw in the old position.

It is also possible to swap AI starting positions, but this requires some more work as you will have to change the starting positions while editing the worldbuilder file in a text editor, and you have to make sure you also take care of revealed tiles. In the text editor it is also possible to change which AI are in the game. Sometimes I might change someone if random opponents give too many of the same AI that was in the last game.

In the end, most maps are good maps that will provide an interesting game. It's mostly about choosing one that provides the kind of game you wish to create. And traditionally NC provides quite decent starts. Does not need to be super strong, probably shouldn't be, but also avoid the worst ones with no food but 2 floodplains and no trees to chop.

Thanks for the reply. I'll look it over and have a go at a map in the next couple of days.

 

[elitetroops]

NC175 Bismarck is up.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Thanks for reviving Nobles Club, great to see! Not sure what your aims are but I always try to make the UU and UB relevant, not always possible I know but personally I wouldn't make HC an isolation game - someone like Joao or WvO might be better with their water based UUs?? I'll try to create a couple of maps this cycle but probably not in the next 6 weeks.

 

[Gator Country]

I've been looking things over, and I'd like to try and take a stab at the Hannibal map you have listed in your Option (C) list. This will be a beginner's effort, so I was thinking nothing really fancy, a standard continents map with medium sea level, random climate. This would give him a chance to use his UB if the opportunity permits, but not make him overly dependent on it.

Any thoughts, ideas, or suggestions? Also, are there any AIs in particular that we've seen way too much of lately, or others we'd like to see more of? I'll probably just let WB pick random AIs for the time being, and swap them out as needed.

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

I've been looking things over, and I'd like to try and take a stab at the Hannibal map you have listed in your Option (C) list. This will be a beginner's effort, so I was thinking nothing really fancy, a standard continents map with medium sea level, random climate. This would give him a chance to use his UB if the opportunity permits, but not make him overly dependent on it.

Any thoughts, ideas, or suggestions? Also, are there any AIs in particular that we've seen way too much of lately, or others we'd like to see more of? I'll probably just let WB pick random AIs for the time being, and swap them out as needed.

Well, if you are going to follow the current order and pace, it will be a couple of months before we get there.
Personally, I'd say go for it. Hannibal next seems fine to me. Our last leaders were Justinian and Bismarck, so no overlap in traits or even natural play style.

 

[Gator Country]

Even if it is a couple of months before we get to the map, that may not be a bad thing. I expect there'll be a wrinkle or three to be ironed out before it's ready to play anyway, so that would give us some time to get it right.

 

[ConfusedCounsel]

Even if it is a couple of months before we get to the map, that may not be a bad thing. I expect there'll be a wrinkle or three to be ironed out before it's ready to play anyway, so that would give us some time to get it right.

That will be a pretty polished 'nothing fancy' map then.

 

[elitetroops]

It's been 2 weeks since the last NC game, probably time to get a new one up during the next week. Seems like option C got the most support, so let's go with that.

C)

• Napoleon (Cha/Org)
• Hatchepsut (Cre/Spi)
• Shaka (Agg/Exp)
• Suleiman (Imp/Phi)
• Qin Shi Huang (Ind/Pro)
• Hannibal (Fin/Cha)

The order of the leaders can still be changed. The first leader should be either Napoleon or Hannibal as we are one CHA leader short.

Do you think you could have a map for Hannibal ready already by next weekend Gator Country? Regarding polishing, it's not as if the maps would have to be "perfect", whatever that would mean. All of the NC maps I've made so far has also had some issues I did not foresee while making them.

Someone also mentioned somewhere that they would be interested in making a Napoleon map. Don't remember now who and where this comment was... Whoever it was, bravely step forward if you are out there!

Any thoughts on map types for this round? Last 4 games were Pangaea-Hemispheres-Fractal-Shuffle (=fractal).

I was thinking that Shaka would be a good alternative for some flat map with more land, like Lakes, flat world wrap. With his cheap Ikhandas and flat worldwrap, you should be able to afford a ton of cities.

I don't know when NC last would have included a traditional archipelago map. Not snaky continents, but one of those with no more than 1-2 civs on the same landmass at the start and a lot of small-mid sized islands to settle. Usually circumnavigatable with galleys. While it might seem Hannibal would be perfect for this, I think Nappy would be even better. Cheap lighthouses (leading to fast Great Abusehouse), cheap courthouses to counter colonial maintenance and CHA for happiness, which might otherwise be a problem when starting on a small landmass. Besides, with Hannibal we should get a chance to figure out if those Numibians really are as bad as many people say they are.

Those are of course only my suggestions. Other suggestions are welcome as well!

 

[Gator Country]

Do you think you could have a map for Hannibal ready already by next weekend Gator Country? Regarding polishing, it's not as if the maps would have to be "perfect", whatever that would mean. All of the NC maps I've made so far has also had some issues I did not foresee while making them.

@elitetroops

Yeah, I can do that, maybe even sooner. I may be overthinking things a bit with the maps I generate, a trap I tend to fall into quite a bit.

I'll get something to you in the next few days. One thing you may want to look at is potential problems for players who try to tackle it at Immortal/Deity level; I can't play at those difficulty levels yet, so I won't be able to check that out.