Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by dalamb, Aug 4, 2012.
Right, I'm anxious to know this as well. I love using BAT Mod 3.0.
I can't post my saves. No one could play them.
BAT 4.0 will be out sometime this fall. I'm just hammering out the final kinks, but I think everyone will like it. At least I hope so.
My vote for your next project, Lemon - BUFFY! - Fix that beast
BUFFY's a no go for me, sorry. You'll have to talk to ruff_hi.
Well, it's about 370 AD and the Lemon Republic is going along nicely...
... except for that %$#%@ Hatty!! I cannot get rid of her even with HA!!
Ah well, I guess that the RNG hates me today.
I've made nice with Vicky and Darius. They both hate Toku, and I'm hoping to get them to DoW him while I spam some Cats and Crossbows. I have a slight tech edge, so I'm hoping to use it before Hatty gets much more entrenched. By then, Vicky, Darius and Toku should be war weary enough to let me finish one of them off. I don't want to face Samurai or Redcoats...
But heck, right now I can't kill wounded Archers or Axemen, so maybe this game will end early.
Monarch/No huts no events/1685 Domination
Settled in place, went Mining->BW and chopped/whipped out some Vultures to take Stalin's two cities (First successful axe rush I've done). I actually overbuilt troops since I expected him to get access to metal, but he never did. I was surprised to have BFC stone so I used it to build The Great Wall to allow myself to expand without barb worries and The Pyramids for early Representation. Toku declared on me around 500 AD as I was teching Paper, but I pushed him back using Vultures and later Longbows (I deviated from Paper->Education to grab Feudalism). Around the mid-1200's he and Caesar both declared on me, but protective longbows saved the day again . I libbed Rifling in 1280 and chain-capitulated everyone but Toku to put me just above the domination limit. Very fun map, reminded me how useful Protective can be in the right situation.
Haven't played one of these in a long while so I shook off the rust and gave it a go
Noble, Marathon, no huts or events, 370 BC conquest win.
I settled in place and teched mining as fisrt choice on way to BW and the UU. My warrior barely gets started exploring when he runs in to Joe's scout. So I KNOW he is nearby and sure enough:
Not as much fun as when it is Shaka or Monty or Cathy or Rags but it will do . One of nice things about marathon speed is SOOO many of the more annoying AI's start with a scout so if they start too close to you a LOT of times you can make em go bye bye before they even get a city garrison
With Stalin gone I run into JC, Toku, Hattie, and Vicky and Cy.
After BW pops --copper int he BFC . Not wanting to be selfish (and also NOT wanting to have to deal with prats):
I share the news with JC. I Keep Rome and wanted to keep his second city which ended up being a holy city but unfortuantely it never got over pop 1 so it was auto razed. Anyways after JC is gone I noticed Vicky was pretty much right smack next to him and only had 1 city so:
I figured "might as well". And I dont think I can really be blamed for this since SHE's the one garrisoning her city with warriors when I have Vultures so
Anyws at this point it seems pretty obvious that a lil Vulture romp might be the way to go so I build some reinforcements and then:
It was hatties turn. She only had one city and hadnt gotten any war chariots and was even nice enough to build a hindu shrine for me.
The good news at this point is its early and 4 AI's alrdy taken care of. The bad news is my economy and tech is tanking BIG time. But I had workers building cottages in my capitol, others rooading to connect Rome and London and once that was done sialing enable river conections eventually got Thebes hooked up without needing to road all the way to it. That plus the shrine and hindu auto spreading let me stay afloat long enough to:
To rebuild once again and this time go say "Hi" to toku. Unfortunately for Toku my economy couldnt handle more far flung cities, not even a capitol so the japanese were just wiped off the map. I dont see how this could be considered my fault either since he had PLENTY of time at this point to found a religon or build a shiny or SOMETHING worth keeping but he didnt so oh wells.
Now its just me and Cy. Cy is all the way on other side of map from toku so it takes awhile for my guys to trudge all the way back. Plus he had enough time that he is starting to crowd London a bit. So that is picked as staging area. Economy not winning any prizes but the cottages spammed around Uruk let me get writting down and the Libraries chopped to run scientists to alphabet as well as open borders with cyrus and then most cities build reasrch on way to currency. So I am managing to stay in the black.
Also Rome chopped out "mids as well so once a cpl of libraires got built that and higher happy cap from rep helped a bunch to. Not to mention chopping GW in my capitol. In fact that was a bigtime dealio since if it wasnt for that all that empty space would have had barbs SWARMING on my cities. But since it WAS built. I could focus on other things.
Now while most cities building research to get to currency London is chopping out units. (I KNOW I prolly could have gotten to preisthood quicker which would have given me ziggys.--well I know that NOW I kinda forgot bout UB until I was halfway to currency --told u I was rusty -- beside I am still not sure if they would have had a bigger impact than going alpha/currency or not. at that point in game)
Anways it takes my guys a few turns to gett o london but its enough time to build some xtra Vultures as well a spears to keep the immortals off their backs but eventually:
It's time to march on cyrus.
I had used open borders to send chariot to scout out his land. Once his land was scouted chariot stood standb to take out his iron as soon as I DoW'ed. Yeah he had IW and I didnt so it was kind of a fair fight
After taking the city closest to me and keeping just cuz it was in a nice location and had gems in case I needed. I move on to his cap and raze it. Then raze his horse city so no more immortals and before ya know it:
Last city falls. But it wasnt ALL easy peasy. My best Vulture who survived campaighs from JC through Toku and most of Cy:
Doesnt get to see retiremnt thanks to losing at 90 flipping percent battle :/
But his sacrifice wasnt in vain since one turn later:
Victory for the purple civ
Well I guess anyone who wonders why some people consider Marathon a tad easier has their question answered with this game. The slower speed along with copper in BFC left a VERY big window for Vultures to run amuck. And while I think there are some things a bit more challenging on marasthon than quicker speeds offensive war is definitely not one of em if situation works out nicely for you and this was definitely one of those. Not that I am complaining. Its fun to get a nice UU and go on a tear Anyways thanks for the game and good luck to everyone else
@KaytieKat: Welcome back! Awesome win, even if it was on Marathon! In fact as you say it's a really nice lesson for Nobles on how much different it is to play at that speed.
BC 4000 - 2200
Paused after before some warfare:
I planted Eridu and Kish where I planned in the previous post, but Stalin expanded to take the Eridu horses. I finished the Great Wall, and built up a vulture army to go after Stalin. In 1250 BC he had two workers on the horses so I stole them and made peace a few turns later. I started the real war in 775 BC and just conquered what I thought was his last city -- only to have the war not end yet. He must have another city either on an island or somewhere past Hatty (whose territory I'm about to start exploring). So I took peace and am figuring out what to do next. My territory:
There is some nice stuff to the southeast, but I can't afford to build there yet.
I built the oracle and took metal casting as the most expensive tech. I wonder if I should have taken HBR instead -- because with Ivory an elepult war looks highly attractive at this point. Toku is crowding me to the east and might get one or both of my proposed city sites before my economy recovers and I can afford to plant more of them. The world:
I need to direct espionage against Hatty and Toku to see how strong they are, but as you can see I'm only about equal in power to the ones I can see -- and JC has praetorians. I plan to plant my GG in Eridu and have it crank out CG III protective archers for a while; my current army should be good enough to take Stalin's last city when I find it.
Plans, on which comments would be nice:
I need to take out Stalin ASAP but that shouldn't be hard. To take out Creative Hatty's cultural defence I'm going to need cats I think. I've been working on Aesthetics as trade-bait, since somebody will get alpha eventually, but I'm wondering if Math > Currency (for the economy), followed by HBR > Construction and elepults is better?
Edit: attachment deleted
Monarch, No huts, no events, normal speed.
Turn 83 - 800 B.C. Typing this out to order my thoughts. (Warning, image heavy)
Gilgamesh, everyone's favourite demi-God. (Those of you who think Hercules is a better and far more popular demi-God, exit the building quickly and quietly before Gilgamesh shows you the error of your ways )
Excellent starting techs in agriculture and wheel allowing for early pottery. A solid UU and an early UB that replaces courthouse.
I settled one South to get the wet corn in first ring, opened mining and worker. Almost immediately ran into three gentlemen I wasn't too happy to see.
But not all was lost and the neighbourhood did hold hope in the form of three friendly faces. (Well, relatively friendly anyway)
Let capital grow to size three, built a second worker and then a settler while the starting warrior scouted out Stalin's lands. Researched Bronze Working, revolted to slavery once the settler was built and spammed vultures with whip and chops thrown in.
While the army was building up, a city was settled Southwest with Wheat in the first ring. Pottery and Writing were also researched.
Our fearless leader doesn't play nice with guys who try to cramp his style. Stalin was promptly told he was too close and was persuaded to 'relocate'.
A force of five vultures descended upon Moscow and quickly packed up Stalin's stuff and moved him to St. Petersburg.
Stalin for some reason didn't take this move very well and sent several delegations to Gilgamesh's court demanding that the city be given back. Gilgamesh responded by promising Stalin that he will be forever immortalised in his epic, and thus, Stalin went down in history books as the first person to be put down by Gilgamesh's war machine.
In celebration, open borders were granted to everyone, so they may gawk in awe at the majesty that is Uruk and its legendary leader, Gilgamesh. Well, with everyone except this jerk who proved to be a most unreasonable skeptic, questioning if Gilgamesh was indeed of divine origin.
In times of peace, granaries and libraries went up in all cities. Mathematics was researched and with some creative hammer management, Oracle was timed to finish on the same turn as Math to nab currency.
I stopped there to take a break, write up an update and figure out the next move.
State of the empire so far:
Techs not shown : Math and currency.
No one likes glorious Gilgamesh yet, but no one hates him either. I bet that will change soon enough
Deity / normal / no huts
Was attacking Stalin when Hatty decided to attack Stalins capitol, that I just happened to have grabbed ( so basically, Hatty backstabbed me ). A little after that I quit because I doubted if I could come back from that situation.
Monarch/Normal. Huts&Events. 975 BC.
The huts only provided 28 G and a map. The competitors were all met by 2000 BC and the immediate neighbourhood is more than a tad tough.
Eridu was founded long, 1SW of the wheat for the two excellent resources in 2400. Kish in 1880 between the horse, cow and FP. Lagash 2S of the eastern silver in 1550.
The early builds were worker, warrior, settler, vulture, vulture, settler as I recall. The tech path mining, BW, masonry, pottery, AH, hunting, mysticism, writing. Summeria is the score leader and the Pyramids are a realistic possibility. I'd have gone deeper on this dispatch but I'm going to check if my TV carries the Canada/US soccer game on an english channel.
Immortal / No Huts No Events / 1400 Domination
As I said I was going to, I settled 1SE on the plains hill. For better or worse, I tend to settle on plains hills when I can. Ever since I learned about the 2 hammers (a long time ago now) I haven't been able to resist.
Early techs were mining -> bronze working -> masonry -> hunting -> writing. Or something like that. Seeing how close so many neighbors were I abandoned my plans for the oracle and focused instead on settling cities and building the pyramids.
I revolted into representation right away. And given the lame land I farmed heavily and built zero (yep, not a single one) cottages. There was a lot of happiness around though, so I was never too worried about whip anger or the happy cap.
Lol. I'm not sure what these immortal AI's were doing but I took civil service with the free tech. So with 8 cities and a sizeable tech lead at 275 BC I knew the game was in the bag. Just so long as I didn't get declared on. So, with Mr. Zero as a guide I got all the AIs to declare war on each other by bribing with my tech lead. This allowed me to play the next 50 turns without much worry.
With both stone and marble stuff came easily. I did a lot of wonder building for fail gold. This, combined with selling old techs, allowed me to keep the slider at 100% for most turns. Really sloppy play and a general disregard for micro meant a late liberalism date.
But with Military Tradition and the horses you can see me borrowing from Stalin in the above screenshot, I was ready to build some curis and take over the world. . I switched to war time civics and turned off the slider.
Again, I'm not sure why the AI were so bad this game. Probably something to do with my war-bribing chicanery. But still.
A pathetic showing. And sure enough, 35 turns later.
A pretty fun map. I don't often play Pangaea, but when I do, I go crazy with mounted units. Looking back, I probably could have won with catapults/trebs, elephants, and maces earlier, but this was fun too.
And a pretty decent score.
Much thanks to dalamb and Herodotus Rex for hosting.
I thought I gave this map a shot, being inspired by your approach to it and it worked terrific! Forgot to take screenshots, but went also without any cottages, earning my money with fail gold, even build some of the wonders by accident, forgot to finish the build So much about playing focussed. The one I really wanted - and missed, of course, was the MoM.
Still, this map was forgiving a lot. I assume the AIs hated each other too much so they hardly traded any techs. I got CS from the Oracle around 875 BC! All the good stuff came in right in time - AP-religion, three GM during Golden-Age-farming, enough food, stolen workers from the AI...
Since everything was so slow I opted to lib Rifling around 1200 A.D. and self-tech MT instead, so all in all I started later with the huge mop-up, but had all AIs vassalled and won Domination at 1565 AD - one of my best finish dates ever.
Thanks for hosting and special thanks to Benginal for showing his approach that made the game pretty much a cake walk.
@DanielTorrence: Thanks for writing an informative but completely non-spoilery non-spoilered-tagged post. Most people mention too much map-specific stuff when they omit the spoiler tags.
Good start so far. I hate it when AIs have a mysterious city some place else that leaves all the captured cities with that "want to join the motherland" unhappiness. An island city is possible as is a captured a barb city which could be literally anywhere. .
Don't be worried about expanding. It looks like you'll probably be getting the pyramids which will allow scientists to carry along your research. And ziggurats are great for keeping costs in check. Land is power, and expansion is almost always good in the long term.
Elepults are great, especially with vultures for melee protection. I wrote in my write-up I wish I'd have done that. So I'd like to see how it works. With a little focus, and timely use of the whip, I think winning the game with elepults is possible. Certainly taking out Japan and Egypt is realistic.
I'm not sure on the tech situation (too lazy to open your game), but I'd imagine that your tech plan looks pretty good. This map has a lot of options. With the nearby marble and stone, you can probably just get out a bunch of settlers really fast, build wonders, and win however you want. Or if you want, you can go easy on the settlers and tech to elepults as quickly as possible. If you decide that's what you want to do, you should probably tech there yourself. There's definitely a nonzero chance you could sit around a long time waiting for the AI to tech something and find yourself frustrated that you researched aesthetics (unless of course you plan to try and build the Parthenon and then Great Library).
I'm excited to see what you do next. Keep up the good write-ups.
Nicely done taking out Stalin. He's one of my favorite leaders to kill. Especially early in the game before he gets a ridiculously large stack.
A few micro notes from what I can tell in the screenshots. 1) In moscow, stop working the plains hill. Food is king. Grow and whip > working plains hills. 2) I'm not sure if you built all of those roads, but there's a few too many for this early in the game. There's no need for that lakeside highway just yet. If anything, build a road to JC for trade routes with Rome.
Any exciting plans for the future? Specifically, you have stone and marble. You also have lots of land. You also have nearby AI. The possibilities are endless. I'm interested to see what you choose.
Congrats on the great finish time!
Hi all, I've started playing civ iv a few months ago, and am really hooked. From lurking on this forum and watching let's plays I've made my way up to Monarch. Thought I'd participate in this game and post for the first time. Any suggestions on what I should do next or what I should have done along the way would be appreciated. Playing for fun but want to keep improving and hopefully keep moving up levels.
Monarch/normal/no huts no events, up to 475 BC
I pretty much always SIP, but after reading some early posts on this thread I decided to give 1SE a shot. Capital builds went worker, warrior, settler, warrior to grow, worker, library, settler, if I remember correctly. Don't quite remember techs, though I think mining, animal husbandry (revealed horses, determined 2nd city spot horse/cow), writing, myst, med, priest, BW (or BW earlier I don't remember). Got the Oracle, and couldn't decide, but went with CoL. It seemed less important this game because priesthood gave us the ziggurats already. But the reason was I was worried about Rome, and saw he had no religion. I took Confucianism, and with the free missionary you get, I sent it over to his capital and then it spread passively in his land. Once he had converted to it I did too. Not really worried about anyone else's religious hatred, since I was about to DoW on Stalin anyway, and figured Hatty would be the next target. Possibly would have been better to get a worker tech, but it's worked out so far, and the shrine is a decent income.
At the moment of this save, I have Moscow but realize I don't have enough firepower to finish off Stalin, because I stupidly thought it was in the bag and switched to building monasteries for beakers in two cities. So I take 10 turns of peace, build more, and take him out right after. Would go on to raze Stalin's third city because it was stupidly placed (imho) and money was getting tight. He settled another on JC's border and I decided to keep it for culture border.
To 475 AD, 8 cities
I entered a regroup mode because my economy was hurting. Thought I'd take out some barb cities in the SE and settle up that peninsula, but it's turned into more trouble than I though it would be, with a further barb city just appearing when I was about to settle.
On top of that, I was lazy about the north, and JC settled past me up on the Arctic coast . I could put a city in behind him for silver, but it will just make our borders worse so I won't for now. Our border tension is at -2 while the religion sharing is +4. He's still at pleased, and has been plotting war forever, still hasn't declared on anyone. He's annoyed at Hatty and Vicky, which is nice.
First 3 cities. Moscow is same size, will be good once calendar comes through. Moscow had Stonehenge, I didn't build any monuments.
While building infrastructure, eg zigurats, I decided to tech aesthetics for trade bait, but both JC and Toku, my religious friends, won't trade their stuff. To get sth out of it I built the statue of zeus since I have ivory, took 9 turns in horse/hills city, should help the wars. Then went further and got literature, building great library now in capital, which has been running scientists but only got great priests (annoying) because of oracle, hopefully the two scientists will help. (Stopped the scientists temporarily to work mines for faster GL) I figured my economy isn't so hot so some bulbs (and an academy, ya think? 475AD without one...) will help. Also building heroic epic in hammer city so I'll be ready when I get Construction. Calendar first to hook up the resources for economy.
I feel like my playing fell off a bit in the second part, though I'm still leading in score and some dems. Settling three cities on the peninsula also takes maintenance costs, maybe that was a detour (along with researching the non-war techs during this time) and I should have focused on building the army for next war already? I guess the thought was get land however was easiest, the cities should pay for themselves soon, and the techs would help for the rest of the game.
From here: Anyway, I'm about to raze that barb city and put my settler in a spot where he can work the horses and the fish. Once these 2 wonders finish, and I have construction, I plan to ramp up the war effort, catapults and elephants, with the leftover vultures. The question is whether to go after Hatty, which would take a large army, or Toku, which would take a smaller one. Not sure what Toku is doing with himself over there with only 4 cities in the face of so much land.
BC 4000 - 2200
BC 2200 - 455
Paused after a lot of warfare.
I went ahead with my plan and built up a vulture army to take out Stalin, followed by an elepult army to take out Hatty. I went after Hatty sooner than I wanted to because I saw an approaching Roman stack going after her. When I rushed to take Pi-Ramesses he went after Elephantine and stopped there.
Unfortunately Hatty had settled a couple of crappy island cities. Upon testing out some diplomacy options I found she would capitulate, which I didn't want, give me the 1-tile island, or give me Theology and CoL. I went for the latter deal and plan to take her out as soon as I can build enough galleys -- which may be a while, since my coastal cities aren't in the best of shape for ship construction. I have some Amphibious Assault Elephants (yay, attacko would approve).
Spoiler chronology :
I don't remember the exact tech order but I recall fairly early going math - HBR - Construction for an elepult war, and getting Currency fairly early to help with the post-war economic crash(es). Current tech status is in the next spoiler.
1250 BC: Stole the two Russian workers on the horses near Eridu, and made peace as soon as Stalin was willing to talk.
775 - 455 BC: The main war with Stalin was straightforward. Unfortunately once I took the 3 cities I could see, the war wasn't over, so I took peace to heal my troops and find the $%^& last city. I eventually found he'd taken a barbarian city east of Egypt.
380 BC: Finished the 'mids and switched to Representation. Unfortunately, few cities besides Uruk can afford specialists right now because of war prep (my cities) or recovery (former Russian cities).
275 BC Uruk generated a Great Prophet, who built a shrine in the buddhist holy city to improve the economy. It helped quite a lot, since all my cities and most Roman ones are Buddhist.
BC 155 - 140. The Second Russian War. I raze Minoan fearing it might be the straw that breaks my economic back.
35 BC: I went for Aesthetics early for trade bait; in this game it paid off becuase Hatty was willing to trade Alphabet before terribly long.
20 BC: That led to some more trades:
AD 130: A great engineer from Uruk bulbs Machinery.
AD 520-920: The Egyptian elepult war, described above. I feel uneasy about the date; I think I ought to have been able to attack earlier but it took a while to build enough elephants and suicide cats to be able to keep the momentum going. I had settled my first GG in Eridu because I wanted Accuracy catapults (2 promos); in retrospect maybe I should have built a supermedic (the usual order) and made do with a bigger pile of CR I cats.
Spoiler status :
My territory North. Toku has built cities in MY sphere of influence, so he must die. Soon. Not sure how soon.
My territory South. I think I want to build the desert hill city in the east (white) soon before Rome can do so.
Charts. I'm a little more powerful than Rome and he's Pleased, so I don't expect any trouble from him soon, but I suppose I can't be complacent. The others aren't much real threat (though I have some questions below about defence-during-war below).
Demographics. I'm first in everything I care about.
Techs: I'm ahead for the most part, though Cyrus has Philosophy so might be a bit of a threat for Education if the game gets that far -- which it might.
Diplomacy. If I go after Cyrus Rome won't like it, but when I crush the others there won't be a problem.
My economy is tanked but when the Russian and Egyptian cities have finished their current infrastructure they can build wealth. I really need to decide where to put the Forbidden Palace. The two choices are Moscow and Thebes, the latter giving better reductions for the Egyptian cities and the former being to build right now (Thebes is down to 2). Any advice?
I have to take out Hatty but while I'm building enough galleys to attack her 1-tile island I could try to take out Toku. Do I have to wait until I've consolidated (read: make sure the gpt doesn't go negative at 0% slider)? I know war is self-sustaining but I won't be ready to take out Rome for a while to end the game quickly.
Questions about defence, most of which are generic:
Attacking Toku means moving a large army east, leaving fewer troops in the wast to guard against Rome and possibly Persia. So how many and what kind of troops do I leave in the west? I can fairly quickly make some longbows (movng a few from Egyptian cities, too) to beef up Eridu, Uruk, and St. Petersburg (the ones closest to the western border) and maybe Moscow. But how many is enough, and what support troops do they need? some catapults? a Shock vulture or two? some Charge-promoted horse archers (with their flank attacks) to go against possible cats?
Even if you think it's not necessary in this specific game, I'd appreciate advice; I've never been very good at city defence which is why often quit or restart if attacked, which I'm sure is holding back my progress in moving up the difficulties.
On pangea diplo is prolly as big a deal as border defence. JC is at war with Vicky so as long as thats going on theyre out of the picture. However Cy and Toku seem to be pretty good buddies and u r not xactly on Cy's xmas card list so there's prolly a real good chance Toku might bribe Cy into it.
If youre lucky JC will ask Cy to dogpile on Vicky which will leave you free to go for toku. Maybe in join the dogpile as a fake war just for diplo bonus which could get you to friendly with JC which could make you safe from him and even let you bribe em against cy if cy jumps in after war with vicky is done.
as for defence just try to figure out which city or cities most likely to be targeted and build walls and then mix of xbows, longbows cats plus a small stack of best attack troups--Im guessing eles at this point. Even on monarch AI most likely to come in with a HUGE stack would be JC and he seems least likely to attack you right now. so walled cites with 3 or 4 best protective garrison troops along with one mobile attack stack of cats and eles placed where they can quickly go where needed should do. The garrison should hold off long enough to for attack force to wipe em out. Just make sure to have workers clear out any jungles or forests near western border cities--no sense in giving an invading stack ne more defense bonuses that you'd like.
Actually right now my biggest worry would be not egtting backstabbed while attacking toku but of JC going on a tear on Vicy and Cy and ending up a beast while toku is getting taken out.
Hope this helps, good luck
@KK: Thanks! It helps a lot.
Immortal 1946 space win. I played a very standard game but had a lot of fun with this map regardless. Thank you for hosting it.
I won because Caesar chose to extort me instead of invade me while Stalin spammed wonders. I had decided to 4base catapult rush before the game began, but I "snuck in" Pyramids first because I'm bad. Japan was an easy kill, even though Persia tried to poach my third. I didn't run any speialists off of mids, just a bunch of cottages and mines so I was able to build units in 2-3 turns without whipping. I rode the land to a late win because I had decided on a space win for no particular reason too. I rushed Robotics before my space stuff because I knew JC would try me, and it paid off spectacularly. No nukes, no problem.
edit -- Oh yeah, I razed a bunch of Egyptian cities with tanks because she was going culture and had no friends. That was a short war, I just forgot.
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