Nobles' Club CLX: Gandhi of India

[dalamb]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Gandhi of India, whom we last played in NC CXXXI; we last played the Indians under Asoka in NC CXLVII. The Indians start with Mysticism and Mining.

• Traits: Gandhi is Philosophical and Spiritual. PHI is one of the most powerful economic traits as it doubles your Great People generation; later in the game it also doubles the production speed of Universities which is more situational but can get you a quick Oxford University. SPI is also a very strong trait, allowing you to switch civics without any turn of Anarchy as penalty; this is extremely powerful for diplomatic manipulations. SPI also gives you cheap Temples which is good for Cultural victories (you need several in most cities) and for spamming Temples of the AP religion to benefit from the +2 bonus.
• The UB: The Mausoleum, a Jail with an extra +2. It can be a good warmongering building, since the happiness boost synergizes with the Jail's -25% war weariness to reduce from prolonged war.
  
  
• The UU: The Fast Worker, a Worker with 3 instead of 2. Some people consider this one of the strongest UUs because it lets you start improving or chopping a mine or forest on the same turn you move there, is available immediately at the start of the game, and never goes obsolete.
  

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Inland Sea, standard options, chosen opponents.

Spoiler edits :

Regenerated until we got an AI we could swap with to get certain characteristics in the surrounding area. Rerouted the NE river slightly to water the 2nd corn. Changed our initial spot to a Plains Hill.

Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:

• 4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
• 1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
• 500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
• 1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other continent if applicable, etc)
• 1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
• End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number of stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps in the early days of the series, and all of you for playing.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 160 Gandhi Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels). You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :

In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
6. Exit the worldbuilder.
7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.

If you're playing at higher level than Monarch, consider also giving them Hunting at Emperor, Agriculture at Immortal, and The Wheel at Deity.

Spoiler huts and events :

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

 

[dalamb]

Reserved for winner links.

 

[sinimusta]

Ooh a ridiculous start! 2 wet corn, gem for money and stone for wonders. Settle in place or on stone? Stone loses a floodplain.

 

[Izuul]

Since the settler is already on a PH and there are more river tiles when settling in place, settling on stone isn't quite the no-brainer that it normally is. Is that a peak 3S?

 

[dalamb]

I'm planning an OCC space race, which is why I picked this particular map. It would be nice if a few people were willing to try, but OCC is not to everyone's tastes and will be significantly harder than a normal game.

Spoiler :

I based what I was looking for on the advice in this set of articles. The first of those suggest regenerating until you get a PH start with an agricultural resource, lots of rivers, and stone. I saved some regenerations by hunting for an AI with almost those characteristics and swapping us, then changing our starting location to a PH. Then I thought very hard and rerouted the NW river slightly to water the second corn; sorry to people for whom that was too much of a good thing.

Spoiler AI characteristics :

I also picked leaders who don't DoW at Pleased, with Peace Weights +8 or +9, and mostly low unitprobs (2-4); I had to pick one with unitprob 6/10 though to get the other 2 characteristics without duplicating a civ.

It's much less modded than the Peter OCC game at the start of the third cycle, which means it will be harder.

Last time we got a start with PH stone nearby, someone plaintively moaned that I hadn't moved us one tile. As it is I guess there's a somewhat interesting choice.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

The saves don't appear to be attached!

 

[dalamb]

Fixed. The usual goof of selecting a file and forgetting to click "upload."

 

[MegaLurker]

Dat start.

 

[dutchfire]

I'll have a shot at OCC Space Race as well.

 

[dutchfire]

Advantage of OCC: You can play it in a night.
1906 Monarch OCC Space Race.

Spoiler :

Hatsheput was 6 turns away from victory, and diplo victory was also a risk.

Spoiler Techs :

Tech:
Agriculture
Masonry
Meditation
Priesthood
Writing
Alphabet
(Pick up BW and Wheel from trade)
(start CoL)
(Oracle Aesthetics)
(Pick up Poly and pottery in trade)
Literature
CoL
Mathematics
Music
Civil Service
(Iron Working from trade)
Paper
(Currency from trade)
Education
Drama
Gunpowder
Construction
Machinery
Engineering
Chemistry
Printing Press
(Trade for philosophy)
Scientific Method
Liberalism - Biology (1020 AD)
Nationalism
Constitution
(Monarchy in trade)
(Feudalism in trade)
Democracy
Fishing (!)
Sailing
(Trade Calendar+Compass)
Optics
(Trade Astronomy)
(Trade Guilds)
(Trade Banking)
Economics -- Missed by a turn
Physics
Replaceable Parts
(1360 AD, receive news that Wang Kong built Great Lighthouse... Trade corporation from him 5 turns later)
Steam Power
Communism
City is so big that it works the plains riverside tile, decided to pop Animal Husbandry to see if there are horses there after all
Assembly Line
Fascism
Electricity
Industrialism
Steel
Railroad
Combustion
Plastic
Computers
Superconductors
(Internet: Monotheism, Theology, Divine Right, Military Tradition,Medicine, Hunting,Archery,Horseback Riding,Rifling,Artillery,Rocketry)
(Internet: Fission)
Fiber Optics
Fusion
Genetics
Satellites
(Start GA here)
(Internet: Refrigeration )
Composites

Spoiler Builds :

Worker
(Stonehenge)
Pyramids -- 2200 BC (Argh, forgot too switch!)
Warrior (mp)
Library
Stonehenge -- 1680 BC
Oracle -- 1400 BC
Granary
Research
Great Library -- 1725 BC
Aquaduct
Hanging Gardens -- 450 BC
Confucian Temple
National Epic
Hindu Temple
University
Oxford
Forge
Theater
Globe Theater
University of Sankore -- 860 AD
Research
Sistine Chapel
National Park (Only 1 worker, making preserves is slow, built another one somehwere here)
Buddhist Temple (AP)
(Statue of Liberty)
Observatory
Statue of Liberty -- 1390 AD
Levee
Christo Redentor -- 1605 AD
Industrial Park
Iron Works
Buddhist Stupa (Forgot about the hammer bonus here)
Three Gorges Dams
The Internet
Laboratory
Apollo Program (switch scientists to engineers)
Thrusters 5x (2-3 turns each)
Engine 2x (4 turns)
Start GA here
Cockpit (2 turns)
Casings (2,2,3 turns)
Life Support (3 turns)
Casings (2,2 turns)
1892 Launch - 1906 Win.

Spoiler GPs :

1560 BC: GE,Settle
1120 BC: GP,Settle
700 BC: GS, Academy
475 BC: GA (Music) Settle
400 BC: GS, Settle
150 BC: GS, Settle
25 AD: GS, Settle
225 AD: GE, Settle
450 AD: GS, Settle
660 AD: GS, Settle
900 AD: GS, Settle
1100 AD: GS, Settle
1240 AD: GA , Settle
1340 AD: Physics GS, Settle
1390 AD: GS, Settle
1460 AD: Communism spy, settle
1530 AD: GG (Fascism), settle
1545 AD: GS, settle
1595 AD: GS, Settle
1645 AD: GS, settle
1700 AD: GA, ugh, keep for golden age during space ship
1760 AD: GE, settle
1808 AD: GE, settle
1828 AD: GE (Fusion), settle
1836 AD: GS, settle
1824 AD: GE, settle

 

[dalamb]

Noble, Normal, NHNE, no barbs, no tech brokering, OCC
1872 Space victory. I pretty much followed the path in the first OCC advice link I mentioned above. I suspect the difference in level was why I was a little earlier than dutchfire.

I've abandoned several long games over the last few months; it was nice to finish one in 2:29 of play.

 

[Mikehendi]

Played a peaceful 3-city culture victory on Monarch.

3 cities is also manageble in a single night

Won in 1570AD. Built Stonehenge like a deity in 3200BC

Will post a summary tomorrow

 

[dmd175]

Spoiler Builds :

Worker
(Stonehenge)
Pyramids -- 2200 BC (Argh, forgot too switch!)
Warrior (mp)
Library
Stonehenge -- 1680 BC
Oracle -- 1400 BC
Granary
Research
Great Library -- 1725 BC
Aquaduct
Hanging Gardens -- 450 BC
Confucian Temple
National Epic
Hindu Temple
University
Oxford
Forge
Theater
Globe Theater
University of Sankore -- 860 AD
Research
Sistine Chapel
National Park (Only 1 worker, making preserves is slow, built another one somehwere here)
Buddhist Temple (AP)
(Statue of Liberty)
Observatory
Statue of Liberty -- 1390 AD
Levee
Christo Redentor -- 1605 AD
Industrial Park
Iron Works
Buddhist Stupa (Forgot about the hammer bonus here)
Three Gorges Dams
The Internet
Laboratory
Apollo Program (switch scientists to engineers)
Thrusters 5x (2-3 turns each)
Engine 2x (4 turns)
Start GA here
Cockpit (2 turns)
Casings (2,2,3 turns)
Life Support (3 turns)
Casings (2,2 turns)
1892 Launch - 1906 Win.

I have never done an OCC but would like to follow what you guys did and try it. Amazing production on the space program, fueled by the settled GPs.
However, I thought that for Oxford and Stupa you needed 5 Unis/3 temples, respectively. How does this work for OCC?

 

[dalamb]

OCC changes the prerequisite to just 1. And lets you have 5 national wonders instead of 2.

 

[Mikehendi]

1570AD Cultural victory (3-city-challenge), Monarch, Normal speed

Spoiler :

I wanted to to a 3 city culture challenge for some time now, and this map seemed perfect to try. Basically you need a wonderspamming / artist running hybrid capital, and 2 good cottage sites with some production. Inland sea often has lush green riverside terrain, which makes this a good map for it.


Report:

Spoiler :

With this specific game in mind, I settled on the stone: 3h city tile, instant access to stone after masonry, and 2 minable hills before BW outweigh losing 1 floodplain, we have 2 wet corn already. Also, there's 2 rivers going up north, so settling 1S gives more room for a possible better cottage city up north.

Techpath was quite different than usual:

Opened with Masonry, building a 10-turn worker followed by a 10-turn Stonehenge! (3h city tile + 3h plainshillforest + stone = 12h/turn!), completing in 3200BC! (getting me a super early GP, and also the earlier you get it, the earlier the culture doubles)

Built a couple warriors to spawnbust next.

2nd tech was Agriculture. Now that the worker can improve 2 corn, 1 gems and 2 mined hills, I continued on the religious techpath with

Polytheism (prereq for literature's nat. epic)
Priesthood (for oracle)
Monotheism (went for missed the religion but missed it by 3 turns )
Writing (prereq)

Theology from oracle in 2120BC and converted to christianity. Both neighbours where still without religion, I want the AP, the happiness and the ability to build with ORG REG.

Meditation, so I could bulb Code of Laws in 1920BC with the Great Prophet I got (in from Stonehenge, and got a double holy capital (but I never built gold multipliers, so it didn't matter)

I switched to Org Reg and Caste system (never used slavery this game, didn't even have BW yet),

Darius was closer then I thought, and had already settled in a way I couldn't settle the ideal cottage spot in the north anymore. In the end it didn't matter, as my cities stagnated around size 14ish anyway, so the less-than-ideal spot was good enough. Plus, it turned out later there where horses in the BFC

I quickly settled Bombay in 1800BC, and Vijgaranijanna in 1440BC, settled my first great artist at darius' border to keep control of my BFC, and went on to build the pyramids while teching more of the worker techs, Wheel-pottery-BW-AH,

Pyramids were completed in 900BC (bit shaky), and I went on building the AP while teching towards philosophy through aesthetics (Parthenon and trade) and drama, getting Philosophy in 375BC.

Techwise I was miles ahead, so I went Music through Literature (for the discount, I held off building the nat. epic until I was done wonderwhoring and could switch to run max. artists.

Side-note: I've been reluctant to tech trade as mansa-like as I usually do. There was no need for selling techs for money, and I kept monopolized techs to myself, to keep the AI as backwards as possible. Only in the final turns they would catch up.

Founded Islam in 225AD, followed by Civil Service (likely should have researched CS earlier, I postponed it because no science - no academy, but the hammer boost would have been helpful)

Started whoring more wonders, like Sistine, MoM, even got Hanging Gardens well in the AD's, spiral minnaret to keep positive gpt.

Last couple techs I self-teched were Nationalism (for Mausoleum-powerd Taj Mahal and Hermitage), paper, education, and libbed printing press in 1000BC for extra commerce output in my cottage cities.

Built the Taj Mahal in 1020 and switched to pacifism/free speech/universal suffrage.

Due to the Church of Nativity, 2 settled Great Profits in the cap and 2+2 GA's settled int the other cities, I was able to rush-buy Nat. Epic after putting 1t into it.

I finished by self-teching gunpowder for defensive unit building, before I cranked up the slider to 100% for the rest of the game (while maintaining a positive gpt due to resource trades and those 6 settled GP's). I generally don't build culture, it could shave 2-3 turns off in a 60-70 turn timespan, but I'd rather build a stack of units to defend my cities in case of a you're-winning-the-game war.

Then Hatshepsut built the GLH in 1040AD I guess the 'mids date was safe after all

The rest of the game I popped 4-5 GA's and 2 GP's (odds for GA where about 67% all the wile). Prophets were used for a 2nd golden age and one of the other shrines out of spite.

Cities were pretty equal culture wise, expected turns to legendary within a 2-3turn timespan. I begged some gold of each AI (all pleased despite different religions), and when I was close to 42000 culture in each city, I pulled the trigger and bombed 7 GA's (3-2-2), and won 2 turns later


Recap:

Each city built the same buildings:

Spoiler :

Late builds were Walls-castle for the extra trade route (and then went on to trade for economics some turns later... oops), and barracks for building better quality defenders. Would have skipped the aquaduct, but couldn't get/trade for enough health otherwise.

All wonders were built in my capital:

Spoiler :

Cities on winning turn:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Thanks to DaLamb and the other Noble-club hosters for hosting another fun game!

 

[enKage]

Emperor, OCC, Raging barbs, normal speed, NHNE
Won space colony 1957 AD
Who will take immortal OCC?

Spoiler :

Raging barbs to prevent AIs building early wonders, partially it worked as barbs took 1 hatty city, but also pillaged my quarry.
GWall, Mids, Oracled CS. No Globe until end of game to avoid pollution (I had 3 initial great people Great Spies

Silly me, forgot to swich to OR soon after monotheism, build a couple of wonders including MoM without OR hammer bonus
I also forgot about enviro bonus to preserves, so never adopted environmentalism

All free great people mine except Fascism

Also fairly early AP for additional hammers. Corps did not give much, but enough to work 2 more scientists. 5 GAges including Taj

 

[georgjorge]

Deity without Huts, to 1120BC:

Spoiler :

Can I win this game with only three cities peacefully settled (as I don't see any more desirable spots despite a decent amount of land)? Let's try this...





Beeline Code of Laws via Priesthood after Writing. First two Great Persons were Spies, both of which were settled. Hopefully getting some Scientists as well to bulb bulb bulb away to Liberalism...

 

[dmd175]

@dalamb and @dutchfire
thanks for the idea, I tried my first ever OCC

Spoiler :

played emperor, Hatty launched in 1896

there was a giant buddhist love fest that she started, with at one point 55% of world in buddhism and everyone in that religion except me and darius (both christian, because he demanded I convert).

My city became a beast, and I ran 100% science the whole game.
great people: settled 3 spies, 1 artist, 7 sci, 2 eng, 1 merch. 5 great prophets built shrines for J/I/Conf/Chr/Hind (--this obvi contributed to the lovefest but still hatty spread buddhism faster than I've ever seen a religion spread.

for tech I was ahead in classical, and later med/into ren periods:

Spoiler :

won economics, won liberalism...however I fell behind after that and could not keep up in tech race. part of that was the very abnormal lovefest. the first declaration was washington on WK 1765 AD. however, luckily no one declared on me, I built one one warrior the whole game. and even refused 2 demands of hammy and 1 darius.

the main OCC issue I had was lack of healthy resources: because of sickness I kept forests until late, and I realized in analyzing my game I had 9 lumbermills. that is probably the reason I fell behind in tech - e.g. most if not all of them should have been towns, and that may have kept me more in the tech race.

that being said, rather fun, and a manageable civ game in terms of time.

Here's Delhi

Spoiler :

 

[enKage]

dmd175

Your mistakes

Spoiler :

-Gandhi is philo - use the power of free specialists - beeline biology and have fun with forest preserves. Cottages are the way too, but why not use Gandhi's traits to maximum? Early National Park means no health concerns and no happy concerns. I had choped forest only on hills, all the rest was for preserves
- do NOT trade with AIs, keep them backtech as long as possible. With 1 city you definitely dont need a lot of techs, just beeline CS, then Uni, then Bio
- Holy Shrines? What for? O had only 1 in my emp game to benefit from +2H from ApostolicPalace. some prophts settled, 3 prophets for golden ages

 

[May Day 10]

what is "OCC"?