Nobles' Club CLXXI : Hammurabi of Babylon

tijup

Warlord
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Messages
246
The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

HAMMURABI of BABYLON, starting techs are the wheel and agriculture



HAMMURABI is organized/aggressive
organized : Civic upkeep reduced by 50%. Double production speed of Lighthouse, Courthouse and Factory.
aggressive : Free Combat I promotion of melee and gunpowder unites. Double production speed of Baracks and Drydock.

its UB is GARDEN a Colosseum that gives an extra +2:health:, this synergizes well with ORG for supporting larger cities earlier.



its UU is BOWMAN an Archer that gets +50% versus melee units. This makes it a better defender but doesn't benefit from the AGG trait.



And here is our starting position:
*************************************************************************************************************
** Note: there's two versions for that game, a non edited version, which is quite harder at high level, and an edited, which is more in NC spirit **
*************************************************************************************************************


Spoiler map details: :

Continents
default for everything else.
Spoiler map edit :

Switched position for 1 iron since one AI has none, and we had 3 pretty close.
Switched position for 2 AIs to have a less aggressive one close by.



Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do suggest that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards. You can post as often as you like; here's one suggestion:

4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other
continent if applicable, etc)
1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

This is just a guideline. If you're trying to improve your game, then posting more frequent updates, in as much detail as you can manage, is the best way to get suggestions from other players. If you come to what seems like a major decision and you want some advice, post an update, regardless of what game-year it is.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps for most of the series, and all of you for playing.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 73 Pericles Noble" (or Monarch, if you want the AI to start with its usual Archery bonus tech, or Immortal for Archery+Hunting, or Deity to add Agriculture). This allows you to play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.

For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:

Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians: :

Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
Exit the worldbuilder.
Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
 

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tijup

Warlord
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Messages
246
Sorry for delaying this post by a few hours, it was a pretty chaotic day at work today.
A co-worker crashed the SAP server, for those of you who knows what SAP is, imagine the result.
 

enKage

Follower of Zoamelgustar
Joined
Aug 21, 2010
Messages
2,799
Location
Łódź, PL
weak traits vs powerful starting techs.

great leader for always war or aggresive AI play. Cheap barracks = easy early rush. Maybe will try for monarch always war (or emperor as it is continents)
 

yyeah

Emperor
Joined
Feb 19, 2015
Messages
1,227
Location
Poland
Hammy ... iam compering him to like Justinian witch looks good but i dont think he rly is, well this one will be challenging i lost last BOTM with him so i would love to take revange.

Decent start looks to me like SiP, warrior 1NW, and i think i will take biggest adv witch hammy have and go Pottery xD.
 

Pangaea

Rock N Roller
Joined
Sep 17, 2010
Messages
6,390
Nice start. Looks really good for a Buro capital, and double wet corn to boot. See no reason to not SIP, but naturally move the warrior first.
 

Gumbolt

Phoenix Rising
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
23,733
Location
UK
Played up to 600bc. *Edit Playing immortal.

Spoiler :
Worker stealing seems to of paid off here. I have 4 workers of which 3 were stolen.

Expanded to 3 cities. Went pottery, AH, mining, BW, Fishing, HBR, hunting archery.

Just taken the nearest AI capital and his second city. Took peace with him left with 2 cities. Did enough to cripple him.

Up to 6 cities. 7 next turn.

I have been very sparse on details as I don't want to give too much away.


Up to 100ad.

Spoiler :


I have 11 cities

Just wiped my first AI of game taking their final 3 cities. The land has been nicely prepared by the AI and plenty of nice resources gained.

I am way way behind on my usual tech game here. Still missing currency, sailing, COL, MC monarchy and CS. No chance of ever trading for these. The early HA rush had it's cost and benefits.

I am struggling for happiness too. Could really use calendar or Monarchy.

With 11 cities I have a good starting base to catch up the AI.


325AD

Spoiler :

One of my neighbours declared war on me. No red fist but this could be because it vanished when I took out my first AI. He attacks with a stack of 7 units. plus 2 mini stacks. Fortunately I was ready for the attack. I lost 1-2 units for his first 7. I lost 3-4 warriors that had been scouting his cities to monitor troop movement. Killed 4 other units of his.

Then moved for his city on my borders. Attack with 4 HA and took the city. Lost 2 HA. Hopefully he will want peace soon.

1T from calendar. Capture gold of the city was much needed. I am still very much a backwards nation but 12 cities will allow me to catch up first. First academy on way in 4-5 turns.
 

bhavv

Glorious World Dictator
Joined
Jun 13, 2006
Messages
7,358
I've always wished hammy was Org / Pro instead.

Or even better, unrestricted leaders, Zara of Babylon. Cre / Org / half of Exp from the UB, plus it builds in double time.
 

Chase_2_Rabbits

Warlord
Joined
Aug 5, 2011
Messages
139
Location
Losing them both...
Bank Holiday weekend and looking for a map to play. This one looks as good as any! Think I'll play this on Immortal due to mediocre leader and this map type.

Initial thoughts: SIP looks good unless warrior reveals anything major. Mining is the only early worker tech needed. I guess I wouldn't rule out ignoring the hills and opening with pottery for the commerce; but ideally I'd like to set up my cap as a settler/unit pump on the corn and hills early game and then move onto grassland cottages (ideally matured by a helper city or two) as we approach Civil Service.

Then there's the good old Oracle question. On Immortal it's very doable without having to waste time on many worker or barb defence techs. I guess I need to see what I can see a bit more first...
 

yyeah

Emperor
Joined
Feb 19, 2015
Messages
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Location
Poland
Omg this map is so hard on deity becouse of ... well many reasons, did someone try it, played on deity ?
 

Gumbolt

Phoenix Rising
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
23,733
Location
UK
Deity thoughts from what i know about map.

Spoiler :

The swapping of the 2 Ai make it much harder on Deity. Even on Immortal I found the teching of one AI to be off the chart. Early IW, maths, calendar and construction around 800bc. Even after stealing 3 workers.

That being said you do have enough land to build a strong economy. It would very much depend on RNG. Technology can be caught up but this also depend on trading partners.

Of course the map provides other challenges too such as happiness. I guess some resources could be traded for.

Then RNG comes into play. At some point a DOW is inevitable. Expect your neighbours to reach pleased early on.

Of course with the right micro and high end game play winning is not impossible. Immortal is almost certainly winnable with the right strategy.
 

yyeah

Emperor
Joined
Feb 19, 2015
Messages
1,227
Location
Poland
@Gumbolt

Spoiler :


Yea as you mentioned AI setup makes this map extreamly hard, at lest for me. I dont want to tell too much becouse you are in game still, i dont know do you meet other guys.

And this start looks like fast start but acctualy it isnt.
Its hard to miss horses in capitol when u enter to WB. So Its like natural to go AH 1st and hook it up to get somekind of barbs def witch are preety big issue here. They are streaming from several directions.

But we dont have extra commerce here so we need Pottery anyway, when you go Pottery you want to skip AH, and we need allso BW becouse its hard to get any production out of this start whitout whipping.

I tryied to skip AH and go like mining Pottery BW, only way to do this and not to be killed by barbs is Settle 1W2N ( witch is not bad settle) and duble worker only then i manage to get out axe in time.

On top of this like you mentioned Hannibal is teching preety fast in 1 of my games he was going for Engi at 500BC or so !!!. And hes is founding religions like crazy what makes a huge problem later on.

This map just screams for early rush witch is extreamly hard to do becouse theres just not enough forest ... this lack of forest hurts me rly hard to be honest.
In this case it would be nice to have at lest elephants here.

Another thing is 2AI xD witch in 2 games when i was in like right path, he decalred on me in 1400BC ( nothing you can do) , 2nd game he raze hes fist in 2400BC!!!!. in one of longer games i just manage to give him city and beg like v end of hunting or something...

And offcourse you have like rest of world witch makes this map even harder.

I gave up on this map xD its too hard for meon deity.






 

Gumbolt

Phoenix Rising
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
23,733
Location
UK
@ Yeah.

I was playing immortal level not deity.

Spoiler :
Not all maps are winnable on Deity. This map for sure is tough. Early pottery here is not bad. Although on deity you do need a good barb defence pretty early. I had no issues doing this on immortal as I fog bust well. Slowing your expansion to do this slows the tech rate too. Lots of units also don't help.

Great wall retrospectively would of been a good gambit here with a strong teching AI. Getting it is another matter on Deity. RNG on AI declaring is pretty much guaranteed on a map like this. Even your UU is not that great vs swords.

500bc pikes would of killed off any HA rush in it's tracks. (Assuming iron.) Both nearby Ai start near copper too. My decision to worker steal here was a good one.

I have full map knowledge here. I need to take out the final AI on my land and push my science heavily.
 

tijup

Warlord
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Messages
246
Sorry guys that you find that map that hard. I'm no way close to deity to pretend even test the map at that level.

I found that map ok, and somewhat challenging for me, but I played it at Prince level, since I haven't played Civ IV since almost a year.

Spoiler is about AI swap, don't open if you don't want to know.
Spoiler :

When I rolled the map Shaka was our neighbor, I was thinking that he may be quite annoying at higher level to have him that close. I switched him with Zara, who was on the other continent.
I was thinking that he would be a better trader than our southern one.

On my game, the other continent was at war for a long time in the BCs and early ADs, I've seen a bunch of great general emerging in logs. On our, I kept the war going for centuries, after stealing a worker with our southern AI (can't remember who it was, I played the map a 2 or 3 weeks ago), and DoWed Zara very late -around 1000 AD.

When I got to other continent, I noticed that the Persian have been hammered by barbs, and were way backward in everything.
Shaka was vassilized by English, and Koreans were the most advanced of the AIs.

On my perspective, I was thinking that the map would be ok for higher level.
sorry about that guys.
 

aitkensam

Warlord
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
170
Location
Beijing, China
Spoiler is about AI swap, don't open if you don't want to know.
Spoiler :

When I rolled the map Shaka was our neighbor, I was thinking that he may be quite annoying at higher level to have him that close. I switched him with Zara, who was on the other continent.
I was thinking that he would be a better trader than our southern one.

On my game, the other continent was at war for a long time in the BCs and early ADs, I've seen a bunch of great general emerging in logs. On our, I kept the war going for centuries, after stealing a worker with our southern AI (can't remember who it was, I played the map a 2 or 3 weeks ago), and DoWed Zara very late -around 1000 AD.

When I got to other continent, I noticed that the Persian have been hammered by barbs, and were way backward in everything.
Shaka was vassilized by English, and Koreans were the most advanced of the AIs.

On my perspective, I was thinking that the map would be ok for higher level.
sorry about that guys.

Spoiler :
Did this swap not get saved then? Shaka was nearby for me (At work, don't recall if I opened Emp/Imm save...). Anyhow, not a problem. Nice to have trickier games now and then!
 

tijup

Warlord
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Messages
246
no kidding ? I used the wrong save ?
I'm at work atm, I can't check. I will take a look tonight.

Spoiler :

If there's 3 Iron close by our starting pos, I used the wrong one. my apologies.
 

yyeah

Emperor
Joined
Feb 19, 2015
Messages
1,227
Location
Poland
Tijup you dont need to be sorry rly this is nobles club, and thoose maps are made to immproove and i rly did i played this start like about 10 times or so just to see what is the moust efficient tech path worker path etc etc and i learn a lot.
And thank you for map.

Spoiler :


Well in deity save no hunts events shaka is our neighbor and zara is on the other continent.
So i think you just didnt change it or something.

And what i want to say about this AI placment just for you, if you will be so kind and make us another map someday xD is that ...
Well Shaka is Shaka everbody knows him and sometimes he is our neighbour and we need to know how to paly against him but what i want to say is... other continent is Darius (top 3 AI imo in tech) Wang allso rly good techer and Zara witch rly good as well and they trading like crazy and theres like no warmoger AI to break it somehow tahts why shaka imo should be in other continent instand of Vic or even better for us Zara.
If you know what i meen.




@Gumbolt

Spoiler :


GW i think is imopssible here Mining - Mansonry then BW and you need to choop all forest in capitol to get it ... this is like no way xD.

I tryied HAs rush thers just not enough forest to choop out strong army and you need that early pottery to make taht rush in you know nice date.

With this amount of forest you need math as well and hes traits are just not good for this kind of play, i meen bulb math.

I was thinking about Construction rush and i writed at begining when i was in like right path to do it 1 game Shaka daclare on me 1400BC 2nd game he raze hes fist about 2400BC and trhat was all xD.

in this 1st game i had 5 cities i belive i was reserching aste and i was running 2 GS in capitol that could be not bad date for Construcion rush.

Plan was bulb math trade aste for alpha and go Construcion. In 1 city, i wanted to place 1 more just choop Parthenon ( acces to marble) for failed gold to have some money for currency.





 

tijup

Warlord
Joined
Mar 23, 2009
Messages
246
@players already playing.

Spoiler :

Since Shaka is our neighbor, I used the wrong WorldBuilder save to generate the game files.
I will repost tonight the game with the correct setup, Yara instead of Shaka.
I played that map after switching those two AIs, and moving one of our 3 close iron ressources to the other continent (to Shaka, since that start was ressource poor)


@yyeah:
I will try repost the map tonight (EST time), or tomorrow morning, it's just a matter to get the correct WB save. I'm using my automated unix scripts to generate game files, so, a few seconds of "work" only.

Spoiler :

Sadly on my game, Darius got hammered by barbs, since Wang built the GW. I found him in the 1200-1300 with only 4 cities, with 2 others having a dozens (Shaka has been vassalized by Eli, and he lost a bunch of city to her). They were still far behind in tech (at Prince, which is normal),
and their relations were tainted by religions.
 

MrBojangles4

Chieftain
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
19
Location
United States
I was literally just about to download this save file and I refreshed the screen and it was gone. I look forward to you posting it tonight. I know how you feel about the SAP server crashing... information systems is my minor in college and I know SAP can be the whole backbone of a company.
 

Gumbolt

Phoenix Rising
Joined
Feb 12, 2006
Messages
23,733
Location
UK
I would leave the map as be. Sure it's not a walkover but on Immortal or below it is quite winnable with the right game play. This is Noble club not Deity club. Not all games are winnable on Deity. It's just one of those things. I really hope this series is not designed on that basis.

Swapping back the 2 Ai will mean others will feel cheated of the challenge. Removing the map as one player at Deity level does not like it seems a bit harsh.
 

aitkensam

Warlord
Joined
May 27, 2011
Messages
170
Location
Beijing, China
Perhaps just leave both sets of saves uploaded? Although maybe that might just cause confusion :p

The fact that lots of us played without even knowing there was a mistake suggests it's not a big deal either way.
 
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