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Nobles' Club CXLIII: Sitting Bull of the Native Americans

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Noble Zarkon, Mar 7, 2014.

  1. Grashopa

    Grashopa Emperor

    Joined:
    May 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,307
    Deity 75AD
    Spoiler :

    I picked up the Great Lighthouse and settled lots of cities. The Sumerians were blocked by a barbarian city allowing me to do whatever I wanted My first GM was a trade mission and then I picked up a lot of gold selling cheap techs because the AIs were slow. Workers chopped workers and I whipped the wonders.

    I think you have to go for an early Oxford in your second city which becomes the capital here no? I'm guessing you could get a BC Oxford if you went for caste early and pulled the GS's out of the starting capital. NE+PHI+Pacifism in the capital is ~150 GP/turn. 190 with a GA. I would have tried that, but the barb blocking city made me try for the great lighthouse instead of rushing settlers out. If I get another GM and use it for deficit research I guess I go for cavalry, but am not sure how far away that is.


     
  2. Grashopa

    Grashopa Emperor

    Joined:
    May 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,307
    Chopping workers by the way is really strong. My third city had 5 forests. Thats 2 quick workers that can then return and finish chop any wonders or settlers in the capital. I've always sat around prechopping my capital. Never really thought of the snowball of chopping out two workers in the 2nd city for example and then have them come back 3 turns 4 forests in the capital no prechop necessary.

    Then with so many workers you are chopping granary (and roading the settler in) as first build meaning all your cities get big quick.
     
  3. Grashopa

    Grashopa Emperor

    Joined:
    May 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,307
    Looking back at my game
    Spoiler :

    Look how badly I delayed the palace move. We're in bureau and not using it. We could have been in bureau many turns earlier as well. I think I built fail gold a while in the new capital...

    Just look at that city. Now give it bureau, library, university and oxford. You could have BC education on this map without getting the pyramids for rep. Thats what a great GP farm does for you. For each turn you are early that bureau + oxford capital is giving you a ridiculous amount of research (if you helped develop its cottages while stuck with a low happy cap). Don't over expand like I do and you can stay at 100% milking those multipliers...
     
  4. GreatWhiteHope

    GreatWhiteHope Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    Toronto
    Deity/normal -> 1830 ad Diplomatic
    Spoiler game details :


    On my 2nd deity attempt, I survived until 25 BC before losing, to Gilgamesh, again. He attacked me for the same reason: I settled one city too close to him in a blocking attempt. I guess that really upset him. It seems like that city site is cursed. Settling there has causing me to lose twice. I guess I shouldn't have attempted to block a warmonger.

    Spoiler 2nd loss :


    Third time's the charm. This time, a barb city spawned at that very site, and Gilgamesh captured it one turn before I was able to get there with my dog soldiers. A few turns after that, he declared on Charlamagne instead of me :thumbsup:! I guess not settling up in Gilgamesh's grill was the only way to avoid the early DOW from Mr. Lebensraum. I can't believe an avoidant settling pattern was, apparently, the only practical way to prevent the loss.

    I then built horse archers for a while. I didn't bulb at all this time until physics and electricity. Instead I settled all my great scientists into my capital and self-teched philosophy, paper, education, etc., so I got liberalism-MT pretty late at 840 ad. The next screenshot at 940 ad, just before the cuirassier attack, waiting on the great merchant.

    Spoiler just before the break out :


    Research from my capital carried my tech rate through the first war. I was running a deficit at 0% research at times during the war, but thankfully, my empire was still generating 250+ beakers a turn, which carried me to rifling at a reasonable speed.

    Spoiler science :


    1060 ad - Tokugawa capitulates
    1240 ad - Zara Yacob capitulates
    1310 ad - Rifling
    1460 ad - Gilgamesh capitulates
    1560 ad - Charlamagne capitulates
    1770 ad - Seoul falls, Wang Kon still resistant.

    Towards the end I had to gift Justinian Radio and Mass Media so he could build the UN. Since he was the last remaining non-vassal (other than Ragnar who was across the ocean), the move denied my vassals eligibility for the diplomatic victory. Otherwise, my largest vassal could've been nominated, and he would've voted for himself. I certainly wasn't getting the domination win any time soon. I would've had to take out Justinian and possibly Ragnar, so the UN vote was the fastest way to win.

    1830 ad - Diplomatic victory

    Spoiler win :


    As you can see, Zara Yacob, who was my vassal, had pretty high population and only had 1 less vote than Justinian. He could've easily been nominated had I been unlucky, so it turns out gifting Mass Media to Justinian was necessary.

    Mistakes made:

    -I actually forgot to build the heroic epic until 1600.

    -I rationalized not building 6 universities + Oxford until very late, which was an incredibly bad move considering most of my beakers were coming from my capital, which had 7 settled great scientists plus an academy.

    -Yet at same time, I took the pedal off the gas and went emancipation just as the last two opponents were teching assembly line. Probably should've whipped another 20 cavalry :dunno:.

    -Careless micro. I tried to keep the game under 10 hours and stopped being meticulous mid-game. I tend to lose focus and start playing frenetically. I didn't share the food in the capital's BFC properly and let the capital stay at size 9 for way too long. It should've been a very early size 16 city. Lost out on many specialist beakers.

    -Forgot to send my great merchants to the Temple of Artemis and only received $1100 a pop. I though the ToA was too far away. It wasn't.

    I've also attached my save from 1130 ad if you want to compare.

     

    Attached Files:

  5. Grashopa

    Grashopa Emperor

    Joined:
    May 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,307
    Mega
    Spoiler :

    I may have missed it, but looks like you didn't use spies. Its good to get through the first cities with no losses so you can plow through the lightly defended ones. I went back and replayed my game to fix my mistake with moving the capital and just stopped after prepping the war effort.
     
  6. Hurricane Jane

    Hurricane Jane Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2014
    Messages:
    18
    Spoiler :

    Whut, Gilgamesh completely random DoW'ed on me. He had just one warrior entering my borders, so I whipped a Dog Soldier, killed the Warrior and it was all peaceful once again.

    Very strange.
     
  7. JSS

    JSS Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2011
    Messages:
    304
    After seeing Grashopa's progress with the early wonder choices he made, I dedided to try again and play a bit more focused:

    Deity, 1615AD, Conquest
    Spoiler :

    Instead of going for the Mids and early Caste + Pacifism, I built the GLH and went for early'ish Oxford and launched an attack in about 950AD with 30+ Cavalry. I was first to Economics along the way for the free GM.

    From there I went Communism and Physics and mopped up the rest of the map with Airship support. I could've won comfortably in the early 1500's had I built Galleons to prepare to take out Ragnar.

    @Grashopa: Looking at your game you're probably beating the map in the 1300's. Very impressive tech rate in 75AD.

     
  8. MegaLurker

    MegaLurker King

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2014
    Messages:
    718
    Yeah i neglected to use spies and even to have all my espionage points on one or two AIs. I guess the ridiculous tech lead for the first 200 turns or so just had me losing focus. Just as you did I was way too slow moving the palace and building Oxford. Halfway through building the universities I realized I had quite a large window for Cuirs and then Cavalry if I chose and whipped away my economy almost entirely.

    I still feel like Pyramids here are stronger than the Great Lighthouse, though maybe not by as much as I would have thought.

    I wonder if going for music and lit was worth it, or if that's something I still do because it was awesome on Immortal. Without going along that tech path it would have been possible to get Oxford in the early ADs.
     
  9. GreatWhiteHope

    GreatWhiteHope Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2014
    Messages:
    31
    Location:
    Toronto
    Wow, nj on the 950 ad cavs! It looks like I may have to give this map another whirl and try the great lighthouse route too. Not sure how beneficial settling those scientists were now. Not sure if I can beat that finish date though but I'm probably gonna give it a try!

    @Grashopa - I think you doubled my score by 75 ad.
     
  10. Grashopa

    Grashopa Emperor

    Joined:
    May 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,307
    I get where I am through mostly micro. I suffer from anxiety so have to check every city each turn or I get nervous when hitting enter.

    My game improved immensely when I stopped focusing on building Oxford - instead farming everything but the capital and prepping for the war build up. However sometimes I think it makes sense if you can bulb education early or can't finish the map with cuirs.

    GreatWhiteHope
    Spoiler :

    Thats a good lib MT time for not bulbing as long as you've met everyone so can't be surprised by an AI lib. At Oxford with rep its 27/turn right?. So it depends on the timing of your final necessary tech to get you enough production to roll over everyone. Still I love to see pics of capitals full of settled specs. Which is why I love obsolete even though I won't often play like that.

    Discipline! :) Great write up thanks.

     
  11. Grashopa

    Grashopa Emperor

    Joined:
    May 16, 2009
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    JSS
    Thanks, I've been following your games in older threads. I don't finish games enough so I'm not entirely sure what my end dates will be and obviously have a lot of room to mess things up later. I'll give it a go here though later.
     
  12. hankinsohl

    hankinsohl Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2001
    Messages:
    128
    Location:
    Seattle
    Emperor, no huts/events, normal speed - 1705 conquest
    Spoiler :

    Settled on the stone to expedite wonder mongering. With my second city I settled adjacent to marble for early access.

    I grabbed lots of early wonders - SH, TGW, Pyramids, Oracle (took Caste System).

    I also was able to expand up to 6 initial cities, all of them having access to at least 1 food resource.

    I went Representation and teched up the Music line.

    I won Music, used the artist for a great age and then teched towards Nationalism.

    Meanwhile, I gifted my missionary to Ethiopia, & used a priest to build the shrine. Confucianism auto-spread to Gilgamesh and with both my near neighbors in Confucianism I was able to adopt that religion too.

    I popped a couple early Great Spies which I used to explore the main continent. I was able to hoard techs, stealing most of what I needed from Ethiopia.

    I built up a huge tech lead, and used some tech to get Ethiopia to declare on Japan.

    I had Cuirassiers very early. I went Police State, Bureaucracy, Slavery, Theocracy, and pretty much ran the map from that point.

    While warring I was able to maintain a decent tech pace and finished off the Vikings with Cavalry.

    I thought this game was very easy given the massive food start, philosophical trait and early access to stone and marble.
     
  13. Libadanda

    Libadanda Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2012
    Messages:
    19
    Here is my save. playing at monarch. dont sure if im going to win.
     

    Attached Files:

  14. TheSunIsDark

    TheSunIsDark Settled Great Scientist

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2014
    Messages:
    479
    Location:
    The great Mayan city of Teotihuacan
    Others seem to be having trouble with Gilgamesh. Tokugawa has DoW'd me once - only recapturing a city I captured before - and I was saved by the AP. Maybe crippling Zara Yaqob wasn't the best idea.
     
  15. azatol

    azatol Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2007
    Messages:
    114
    Location:
    Elk Rapids, MI
    This is my first time trying this. It's been a while since I played Civ 4 so I noticed some Civ 5 tendencies creeping into my game. But I'm trying to get better at both games.

    Warlord, 870 ad update

    Spoiler :


    I decided to go a peaceful route and focus on getting better at micromanaging a few cities. Whether I did that well, I'm not sure.

    I started out by moving my settler southeast, to leave room for an awesome city on the west side of the river which would have access to a ton of resources and could become my capital in the future.

    Met my neighbors very quickly, but I focused on whipping every time the happiness penalty went away, and getting work boats, workers and settlers out, as well as a few dog soldiers.

    At first my expansion was pretty slow with all the boats to build, but eventually I hurried up because of how many other civs were nearby. Mesa Verde went underdeveloped too long, that's probably one of my big screw ups.

    Buddhism and Hinduism spread to me, I went with Hinduism because of Gilgamesh being right on my doorstep. I had put two Scientists in my capital, but I started that too late as my first GP had 60 / 40 chance of either Scientist or Prophet, and it went Prophet. I bulbed it to Theology, which ended up getting me Christianity. All of the religious techs before that I had got through trading.

    At 870 AD, I'm going for Civil Service and then getting Optics late unless I can trade for it. There's not many trades out there, I'm ahead of the slow Warlords AI by several techs.

    I might want to go for a space victory, but I am horrible at Diplo victories so maybe I should challenge myself.


     
  16. Hurricane Jane

    Hurricane Jane Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2014
    Messages:
    18
    Normal/Noble/1901 AD/Diplo
    Spoiler :

    So I went with SH/Mids/AW setup. Settled on the Stone. Plan: Tech path: Mine -> BW -> Mystics -> Masonry -> AH -> Sailing -> Writing -> Alpha -> Currency -> CoL -> Phil for Angkor Wat, Pacifism, Trade routes, tech trade and 2 religions. Cahokia builds Worker -> Warrior -> Settler -> SH

    Met ZY and Toku pretty early. Worked the corn with my worker, then build some mines for more comfort in early wonder building. Sent First warrior SE, was pretty lucky to find Bronze. Going to settle there because Gilgamesh is near.

    That was basically the moment I realised I hate tectonics. You meet neighbours from everywhere and can’t keep up with the scouting pattern. You’ll have to be lucky to settle the right places early. At least built SH. After the WB’s in cap for food going for GLH. Had pretty harsh economic startup pattern but after turn 60 everything deemed okay. I almost was out of economic problems and building problems with the First Prophet in turn 62. In the meantime just expanded with Poverty Point, building DS and Settlers there. Waiting on Alphabet to trade with neighbours. Luckily they aren’t very religious still. Gained a GE before teching Phil, so I could rush Angkor Wat. From there cap was okay. Converted to Pacifism, Bureau, Buddh (Gilgamesh was Buddh). After that is was just rushing to Rifling for Riflemen, then to Steel, Artillery and Mass Media for an easy Diplo-with-vassals. Took Toku first, then Zara and Charlemagne. Kept Gilgamesh and Wang Kon Pleased-Friendly towards me. Just when I was about to war with Justinian, I won on diplo. Pretty easy, with loads of units and still an easy tech lead. Was just too lazy to take Ragnar on in a sea war (I'm not that good in sea wars)


    Maybe screens coming up later.
     
  17. azatol

    azatol Warlord

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2007
    Messages:
    114
    Location:
    Elk Rapids, MI
    1953 Space Victory

    Spoiler :


    After the 780 update, I continued to work on science buildings and getting GSs. I settled any of them plus a couple of accidental great prophets in my capital.

    Around 1500, I explored the world, and found this:



    I invaded the barbarian cities, and found that they were quite well defended. I had to get reinforcements, but eventually I took Anasazi with the silly combination of muskets and catapults. After the counterattack, I swept up Teoihuacan. Now that I look at the city names, were the Aztecs in the game and destroyed by barbarians? I guess I don't remember how barbarian cities form.

    I also realized that when you take barbarian cities, the populace are barbarian culturally, and there's a lot of unhappiness, I didn't realize that would happen with barbarians.

    The two extra cities were a nice help.

    In the west, Mound City didn't have a lot of tiles because of the Ethiopian borders, so I started working on getting culture buildings there to push the borders back. Meanwhile, the wonders + theatre in my capital caused the Sumerian city of Ur to get enveloped by my borders.




    I wasn't able to convert Debre Burhan by the end of the game, but Ur did convert to me. It was rather undeveloped so I wasn't able to do much with Ur during the game.

    After I got to Rocketry, and finished Apollo, I was able to get up to Genetics without much backtracking, but then I had to go back and get 6 techs to reach the next space component.

    Cahokia,


    Poverty Point,


    and Anasazi were my only space production cities. Most of my other mainlind cities were more coastal / cottage and not able to produce many hammers, so the ex-barbarian city of Anasazi ended up being my best 3rd option. At the end, the population were still 10% barbarian, 90% Native American.



    The engines were last, and I finished those in 1943, for a 1953 space victory. The AI were researching things like Combustion or Industrialism. One of the AIs demanded Education!!, in 1890.



    Thoughts:

    This is the most I've ever microed. I'm kinda disappointed with the result, compared to how much I tried to focus compared to my normal slacker play style.. I almost want to start over and see if I can do better, but I think I'm going to move up to Noble instead. This was a cakewalk as far as beating the AIs to space. I definitely had Apollo earlier than I ever have before, in 1850, but I'd missed a lot of techs I'd missed to beeline it, and no one to trade for them. Warlord hurt me there I guess.

    I managed diplomatically, despite normally struggling with that. Gilgamesh and Wang Kon were my Hindu allies. Once I went to Free religion, Ethiopia ended up being friendly too. Wang Kon and I often traded off for most hated with the other blocks, so maybe I didn't do a good job.

    The main difficulty in this game was dealing with my water supply getting poisoned. It happened to me over and over, in my two main cities and in one other. I put more and more investment into espionage to try to prevent it. I built the Kremlin, ran 10% espionage most of the game, and had spies in every city. I caught a lot of enemy spies, but they still got through sometimes. I did run the anti-espionage action in enemy capitals a couple of times, I guess I should have kept running my spies in to do that, but I got lazy. I'm curious how people on higher difficulties deal with espionage. It seems those who hated me decided to poison my water instead of warring with me.

    I don't remember ever seeing the icon for 5 specialists of the same type before. So that was new for me. I think I used to just let the AI manage my specialists so I never noticed or never had 5 before. I also didn't realize that when you launch your spacecraft you can actually see the rocket lifting off from your capital.

     
  18. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Civ IV Emperor EQM Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Joined:
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    Male
    Location:
    Gibraltar
    @azatol

    Congratulations on the victory!

    Spoiler :
    No the Aztecs weren't in the game at the start, guess Barbarian city names are just random? Getting a good date on Prince or lower is tough as the AIs tech so slow you need to learn it all yourself, definitely sounds like you are ready for Noble.
     
  19. rfcfanatic

    rfcfanatic Mercantilist

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
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    726
    Location:
    In isolation
    What a start :drool: One may consider building NE in the capital in this case. Settling on the stone looks definitely the greatest option here.

    Will try this on Monarch/Normal/NHNE.
     
  20. rfcfanatic

    rfcfanatic Mercantilist

    Joined:
    May 20, 2012
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    726
    Location:
    In isolation
    975 BC. Just managed to Oracle Feudalism. Not sure what I'm gonna do with it now, but it was the most expensive tech available.
     

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