Nobles' Club LI: Mao Zedong of China

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by dalamb, Jun 6, 2010.

  1. pzschrek

    pzschrek Chieftain

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    to 1600

    Spoiler :


    Yeah DrLake, they were mostly just annoying the bejeezus out of me, but I was never under true threat. Actually right after the last update, I founded some cities in the chokepoints leading south and barb activity 1. dropped off dramatically and 2. was easier to defend vs with fewer units.

    So anyway, I spread out to people my continent.


    By pzschrek at 2010-06-07

    Maintenance was/is tough, but with enough wealth-building I managed to stay ahead of the ai in tech. Made lib, got nationalism, and built the Taj Mahal. Then I decided it was time to end Babylon, so I went for rifling and steel. He didn't even have gunpowder, or that many units. He did have a captured barb city by the dyes in the middle peninsula surrounded by my land with most of his offensive stack, but macemen and knights vs rifles and cannons = fail. I took a couple of his cities (to include the Sistine Chapel) in the SW and then decided to cap him...Maintenance is plenty high as it is, and I figured I might as well vassal him while he still generally likes me and will be able to assist with research and his navy later in the game.


    By pzschrek at 2010-06-07

    State property is one tech away...relief at last! The forbidden palace will soon be up in the middle peninsula, so significant relief for the 9 or so cities i have across those peninsulas.


    By pzschrek at 2010-06-07

    Everyone on the other continent is Buddhist, so it has been one big happy religion-fest over there.


    By pzschrek at 2010-06-07

    A nice gem I acquired was a barb city in the far south of the middle peninsula...3 foods. I turned it into a production powerhouse to have a place to build a decent navy, since most of my game has been land-based, which will soon change now that I have secured my continent. Soon it will be time to break up the buddha party.

    On an aside, is there a list somewhere of good techs to get for trading with the AI? I have been a lot more aggressive of late about trading away a tech for the AI's $$ when it has too little value to trade for another tech but before it becomes valueless, this especially helped fund a lot of maintenance-driven deficit research early, but I'd like to optimize this as I move up in levels.

     
  2. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Immortal/Normal

    1 AD

    Spoiler :


    Settled in place. With ag/mining already, i teched masonry straight away. Popped 1 tech and some gold from a hut before dying to a bear.

    Izzy/hammy founded different religions. Not good. I opted to side with izzy because she spread more heavily and demanded I do so. Hammy of course went war mode, and of course I built axes, then of course he didn't declare and dropped it :/. I guess I got lucky.

    I tried for wonders. Oracle went right as I teched priesthood. War mode from hammy scared me away from great library. I got parthenon poached for a lot of failure gold. Not pretty at all.

    Meanwhile, the AI is getting might massive, since this is one of those maps that is balanced for noble but less so for immortal and everyone can get 15 cities or so :/. I'm a better player now though, so unless someone goes out of control I at least have a chance, even if this map script is a total cheap shot on high levels (quite fair on noble though :p).



    Yeah, I wound up just milking expansive. Might as well, right? The land is there. I don't overcottage so I'm not as sad as in the past.





    Not the best tech situation ever, but this is how it goes when there's land all over the damn place. What should I do, LET the AI get 20 cities? Hell no.



    Lib times

    Spoiler :


    I get burned to lib (I don't even try). I trade tentatively but having met only a few AI for most of this segment I don't like my odds of trading much and treat it a little more like NTT for a while. I self research guilds and trade it back for engineering. Philo bulb got a lot of earlier stuff and thats about when they started to avoid trading with me. Charlie picks up circumnavigation. AIs HATE each other, cathy and peacegaystupidashellvassal sury vs pericles/charlie. Izzy isn't doing anything although to her hammy is eligible. I...see that hammy only has one source of horses and isn't quite at guilds yet. Yeah, you guessed it. I pull a really dick move here:





    I move my stack next to the horse, pillage it with a chariot the next turn (then delete the chariot, and have another chariot plus these units sitting on the hill forest 2 SE of the horses. This "threatens" the tile ----> as long as that chariot is there, the AI will NEVER put another pasture there during war. Goodbye knights, goodbye cuirassers, goodbye anything better than muskets, IF he gets to gunpowder.

    Angrybeardman issues a counter-attack!



    But it FAILS! Not surprising with bajillion first strike CKN and longbows in there when he has NO SIEGE. 7-8 longbows would wall that stack even if he HAD siege since the target city was on a hill.

    After that, it isn't hard. I drop pikes out of production once the horse archers are swept out of the way. I go heavy on CKN + treb with some longbow support. Maces? Lose. Pikes? Lose. Longbows? Not bad, but vs protective UU xbows with a promotion advantage...lose. Yeah, nothing wins for him in the field vs just the CKN, even after he picked up military tradition. Pillaging horse mattered a lot since I was going in with the UU, and late.

    Economy looks pretty awful at that point, doesn't it? Well, despite that after I get a good bulk of forces I drop troop production to 2 cities and then quickly just to my HE city. I capture the stupid statue of zeus city, and proceed to string out and capture every city on the continent he owns except one, which I force him to give me for peace since it has oil:





    Meanwhile, I used my banking line tech wisely, and had banks springboard my tech. Packaging 3 techs to pericles got me astro also which helped too.



    1921 AD space

    Spoiler :


    Good hammer city...



    Good tech rate...



    Win...



    Nobody was remotely close. Charlie had only recently completed a part. There was so much AI-AI fighting going on on the other continent, and even izzy finally went after hammy (I did not take cap because of this). I easily won internet, built a complete ship because I had so many cities building 2 engines was nothing, and fired the ship off.

    Now, how well did that unconventional medieval war work? People hate on this era and talk about tech leads a lot, but clearly I lacked a tech lead while fighting. The key IMO to war in this era is resource denial - you absolutely do NOT want to see knights or especially cuirassers...and ideally you do NOT want to hit protective civs. Other than that, it works fine. Denying resources is more typical than I expected, and leads to kills/deaths like this:





    Pretty good, especially since I was fighting a guy more advanced than me with a 30 unitprob on immortal/normal with a big empire. Hammy's cities were quite a prize, too ---> he'd built the majority of the wonders in the game, including the ones I missed!

     
  3. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    Spoiler :

    Well I've been teching a lot of things :-D i think that could be that literature. I think I have Math+Currency too, no CoL though.
    Workers you're of course completely right, I will adjust, In cap I build Pyramids for fail gold, so I will give there instructions for something...probably some workers.
    The fact is that I think I could have 10 cities at 5BC, but it wouldnt be the best thing on the world ;-) maintenance would kill me.

    As priority I want those Gems SE, that should pay for themself and I even think I would prioritize IW a bit. I should have maybe went instead of Math for Alpha, I don't know what's up with AI's but I cant get them to have Alpha soon enough for trades to backfill with Aesth etc.
    Those 2 more settlers dont need to be settled right ATM, they can wait in their locations for better time frame.
    The thing is I thought about the NW corn but couldnt find reason to place there city just for corn (and probably 1 wine) if the surroundings are so poor otherwise...
     
  4. Zink

    Zink Chieftain

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    Spoiler :
    Besides spreading hindu i'd also consider spreading buddhism which you have in one city:
    1. Hammi should remain pleased with civic bonus (unless you have several negatives i cant see from screenshots).
    2. I assume Hammi will be your next target anyway so preparing for a FR or buddhism swap will help vs. unhappy during war (i'd go buddhism, HRE really loves religion).
    3. The two rivals left are buddhist Russia/HRE so after war with hammi you would be isolated with hindu. Russia/HRE can be a real pain when the game gets late, wouldn't want them both as my worst enemy.

    But your game is won already anyway, the above points just would make it easier, imo :) Nice game!
     
  5. pzschrek

    pzschrek Chieftain

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    TMIT, I noticed you pretty much shaved the forest down, especially around the core cities. I often leave as many woods standing as I think I can get away with, for ancillary production if needed. Did you cut down the woods mostly to get chop-hammers early, or am I failing to optimize something by leaving so many up?
     
  6. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Hammers early are worth more than late.

    But also, they are a liability if someone opts to declare on you as they provide easy cover for attackers.

    Immortal maintenance is pretty unkind so I was also running a lot of cottages to afford the # of cities I ultimately blocked out. For a lot of those forests, it was "cut them or work unimproved tiles", and the answer to THAT, at least, is obvious. Riverside grassland is too good to leave alone. You'll notice that plains forests are largely intact, excepting areas where wonder rushes were attempted ;).
     
  7. drlake

    drlake Emperor

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    @Zink

    Thanks! Good point on switching my state religion (or going with FR). I hadn't thought that far ahead yet.
     
  8. GGS

    GGS Warlord

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    Prince/Epic. 1000 BC.
    Spoiler :
    The six huts were kind: map, 223 G, hostile and just-started IW in 2550.

    China settled in place and the marble was a plan changer (Oracle time). The initial capital builds were worker, archer, worker, settler, barracks, archer, axeman. The tech path in this era was: hunting, archery, BW, masonry, (IW), the wheel, pottery, mysticism, meditation, priesthood, AH, metal casting (1500 Beijing Oracle), writing, fishing.

    Shanghai settled a tad tight (by my standards) 1W of the the southern corn in 2250. With Beijing looking-like a wonder-driven GPF, Guangzhou 1SE of the southern stone in 1200. Less than perfect locations but the capital should be able to chop-out The Pyramids. Isabella came from the NE in 3650; Hammurabi from the west in 3300.

    A fourth city would be nice but currency and CoL are some distance away and the barbarians are at the door.
     
  9. Grashopa

    Grashopa Emperor

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    1600 BC
    Spoiler :

    We've got early hammers, commerce and marble in the capital BFC, so tech was hunting, masonry, BW, wheel, oracle techs, pottery, oracle->MC. And we are EXP, so I threw out 4 workers before starting on the oracle. This allowed me to chop the pyramids out in 6 turns or so leaving me with a ~45% chance to pop a GE which will bulb machinery to get out the Cho-Ku. I'm probably also going to chop the forge here at the end to improve those odds by running an engineer... There is no settler rush, just need to grab a couple more productions sites and its hammer time.

    I popped 4 scouts and archery so barbs won't be a problem.




     
  10. pzschrek

    pzschrek Chieftain

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    Prince/Epic Diplo win

    Spoiler :


    My first run at the prince level. I side with CivilizedTiger in our discussion of the last NC game...I did not find it a particularly big jump. The AI kept a bit closer on my heels, and in the middle game I didn't end up blowing way out in front like I usually do. Their large empires may have assisted more in this. I didn't really get on their butts until about the Industrial era when courthouses were everywhere to control maintenance, my necessary buildings were pretty much built, thus everyone but my unit cities was building wealth, then the 100% science slider with positive gold and like 20-25 cities was more than they could handle.

    I think of late the biggest lesson I have learned is the necessity of a robust early military. I try to make my 2nd city (or maybe 3d, if it takes that long to pop a good resource in the right spot) a production city and churn out the axes. This gives me the opportunity to knock down an early neighbor and also enough of a power rating to deter many of the other AI...before I wouldn't go to war at all until trebs and maces, or even riflemen, because I wanted hammers for building settlers, random wonders, and more buildings than I could ever need. I've found that investing those early hammers in axes tends to pay off more over the long run.

    Anyway, a few screens:


    By pzschrek at 2010-06-08

    The fruits of the vassal wars to secure the win:


    By pzschrek at 2010-06-08


    By pzschrek at 2010-06-08

    I've gathered a large force in the HRE's lands next to Russia, and another offshore, when I was elected. I hate to miss a good industrial/modern war with a near-peer in terms of army, so I may play that one out.

     
  11. Grashopa

    Grashopa Emperor

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    schrek
    Spoiler :

    Good game, and of course you have to finish him - it shouldn't take too long :) So much land makes the game an interesting exercise from the barbs to filling in all that space after the war.
     
  12. SillyGoat

    SillyGoat Warlord

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    In the cheap seats.
    Emperor/Epic

    to 1000 bc

    Spoiler :


    Settled in place. Built worker/warrior/worker(chopped)/warrior/settler/warrior/warrior/worker/axe/axe/settler/Pyramids

    2nd city went east to claim copper. Built barracks(stopped when priesthood came in) Oracle (took MC in 1975 BC), finished barracks, axes...there's a lot of barbs on this map. There is a huge amount of empty land around.

    Did amazingly well with huts: I lost count of how many I popped, but they netted me over 600 gold in total, a scout, AH and Hunting.

    Techpath: Bronze, wheel, myst, masonry, med, priesthood, pottery, writing, math.


    Second settler went south to claim stone and horses.

    Finished up the Pyramids in 1200 BC with the help of a couple of pre-math chops and a couple of post-math chops (had to dodge a few barbs along the way, I wound up spending 220 of my hut gold upgrading 2 warriors to axes)

    Chopped out a forge in Bejing and I'm running an engineer. GE due in 27 turns to bulb machinery.

    At this point, I've only got three cities, but I should be fielding Chos in the BCs. I still need to pickup Iron Working (and Archery) , but I'm hoping to pick those up in trade. Tech plan from here is Currency/Col/Civil service.

    Izzy hasn't founded a religion yet, but Hammurabi has founded Hinduism (and I suspect Judaism as well but that might have been founded by a third AI. He's already teched Monarchy but I didn't start seeing his research until after Judaisim was founded. I think he went there via Monotheism rather than priesthood, but I'm not sure.

    Plan from here:

    Short term: Get horses hooked up ASAP to get some chariots out to help with barb axes, get a few more cities settled, and get a library up in Bejing so I can start running some scientist once my GE pops.

    Medium term: Get an army of chos, maces and cats together and go bonk some heads. Izzy claimed the gold site to the east, so I'm thinking she'll need to go first. There is also a boatload of great land to the south, but it's going to take an army of workers to clear all that jungle.

    Should be a fun game. (though I keep wishing I was playing as Qin rather than Mao....;) )

    Empire overview:



     
  13. NihilZero

    NihilZero WHEOOHRNY

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    I started this last night on Immortal without realising that events were on...and got pwned by Philistines in my capital.

    Events are a fun change-up, but maybe not ideal for forum games...:lol:

    I might try again later, but it won't be legit as I've seen the map (don't like it, too much land for AIs to gobble).
     
  14. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    ^ yes huge amounts of land make high difficulties harder, but it's doable here unless something goes very poorly.
     
  15. NihilZero

    NihilZero WHEOOHRNY

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    Something like Philistine spearmen capturing Beijing? :p

    It's going okay on my second run with events off.
     
  16. DampRain

    DampRain Prince

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    @ 4077 Mash
    Just browsing, but I strongly back drlake on this. Founding a religion only tends to be a serious issue when you are isolated, even then, it tends to be a "late" religion.

    Reasons:
    1. Early religion will set back other key techs, be they worker techs, writing, or otherwise.
    2. Allowing AI's to get religion encourages them to war. This will also slow down their tech rate considerably, allowing you to eat them up.
    3. If you found a religion, you will personally have to devote time and hammers to spreading it if you want other AI's to have it (which you will, since you don't want to be a pariah).

    The main reason to found a religion personally, rather than having AI spread it, is to get a religious city. Even then, it tends to lose out as GProphets settled instantly tend to better, again spreading religion is expensive and it may delay the GSs you need for bulbing+ acad.
    Normally otherwise, AI's tend to spread religions, or you can get it from auto spread.
     
  17. 4077 Mash

    4077 Mash Chieftain

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    @DampRain

    My criticism of my own play was somewhat different. I understand the reasons not to go for an early religion, and I do not normally do so. My point is that once I decided that this was a case where it did make sense, I should have done it as quickly as possible.

    Why did I think it made sense?

    Spoiler :
    1. I was not cultural.
    2. I did not build Stonehenge, and instead went for the Great Wall.
    3. No one my continent got Budhism or Hinduism. I could not count on them getting Judiasm.
    4. My early research of Masonry gave me a good shot at being first to Monotheism.

    Additionally, as I said, without any animals in the BFC of my first three cities, and far neighbors making chariot rushes extremely unlikely even in the even I ended up with horses. It would not have hurt to wait on AH.


    However, now that I've said that, I also went back through my log file, and realize why my own criticsm does not make as much sense as I originally thought:

    Spoiler :
    I did not know about #3 until later. I had finished Pottery and was almost done with AH by the time I actually met Isabella. Almost certainly my original goal at the time was to get both prequistes for writing and then start on writing. As soon as I was pretty sure there were no other early religions on my continent, I pushed off writing and went Poly>Mono. When I initially reviewed my own research order, I had forgotten the order of events.


    Continuing my game from 1000BC to 25AD (Noble/Epic):

    Spoiler :
    OK, based on where I am at in 1000BC, I am going to try for cultural victory. I switched to researching Code of Laws, which I got in 675BC and founded Confucianism (then returned to finish off Currency).

    In 650, I beat the odds and got a Great Prophet in Shanghai. I used to to create the Jewish Shrine. I am using some missionaries to spread Judiasm to my neighbors, because I do not want Confucianism accidentally spreading and causing a problem. Hammurabi is currently pleased, and Isabella is friendly (I gifted her a tech when she asked,and I am willing to do so for Hammurambi). With the GW, and happy neighbors, I am REXing with minimal amounts of troops.
    My research path after Currency went Alphabet, Aethsetics, and I am starting on Literature. I have traded for Fishing, Sailing, Meditiation, Monarchy, Archery, and Iron Working. I used my Great Scientist to bulb Philosophy and found Taoism. I am up to 7 cities, and I see plenty of room to spread peacefully to 10 or 11 cities. Having 10 or 11 cities is a benefit because it means I can have two cities which don't need Temples, and can solely focus on units.

    My next steps: get the Parthenon built, after Literature, get NE built in Nanjing. Get Confucianism and Taosim spread to my cities and start building/whipping Temples. Get my other cities settled. Speaking of which, I need more workers and at least a few more defensive units including some defensive spies. My tech goals after Literature will be Music (for the free Great Artist), Drama for culture slider and my UB, Civil Service for Farm spreading and Bureau, and then head towards Liberalism.

    My 25AD Screenshots:




    Thoughts/Questions:

    Spoiler :
    1. How lucky have I gotten? As I reviewed other games, it seems like everyone else got caught with Hammurabi and Isabella founding Budhism/Hinduism and being caught between the two. In my game neither one of them founded an early religion, and I was able to spread the religion I founded to both of them. And speaking of luck, getting a Great Prophet in Shanghai rather than a Great Spy was helpful to my economy. Most of the other players are on higher difficulties than me, but that does not impact these two factors, does it?

    2. I should have settled Xian 1S of where it is to get copper in the BFC. Not sure what I was thinking here.

    3. I have a hard time REXing and keeping up with 1.5 workers per city. I need to address that.

    4. How much should I be concerned about defense? I've got Hammurabi pleased and Isabella friendly. If I can maintain those relationships, I should be good until someone shows up from another continent, right? (I'll probably even share a tech with Hammurabi if he asks.)
     
  18. dalamb

    dalamb Deity

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    Sorry to hear about your troubles, but you can run it as a custom scenario and turn events off.
     
  19. Maraduke

    Maraduke Chieftain

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    Hey all, finally decided to stop just reading the forums and actually participate. This also means I have a woefully inadequate number of screenshots, but I figure I'll eventually remember to take them.

    I'll be playing Monarch/Epic. I just tried making the switch to Monarch a week ago and lost my first 3 games, so maybe I'll turn things around.

    Played Up to 325 AD (again, totally forgot about taking SS).

    Spoiler :
    I usually don't go for Wonders, but with the marble I decided to go for the Oracle. Early Techs and build order:

    TW>Masonry>BW>Myst>Med>Priest

    Worker>Warrior>Worker>Warrior>Oracle (or something like that).

    I managed to get Marble hooked up and have two forests prechopped by the time Priesthood was finished. I got writing just in time to get CoL as the free tech.

    Expanded east toward Spain and nabbed the gold from her, and then just as I settled my third city I started to get destroyed by barbs. Lost a worker and they razed a city. Archers saved me, but there were 50 or so turns of defending from barbs.

    Couldn't figure out how to get images in the text (insert image doesn't seem to work...), but attached is the current situation and techs.

    Comments:
    My tech situation is looking pretty good. I'm currently building sword/cat/elephants to try and take some land from Isabella and hopefully that will make up for my barbarian set back. I'm also thinking about trying to setting south in jungle near two gems, maybe before I go to war.
     
  20. NihilZero

    NihilZero WHEOOHRNY

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    Yep, that's what I did second time around. It was my own fault, I should pay more attention. :)

    Second game is going okay, but hot damn there are some big AIs out there. Not much ocean on this map.
     

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