Nobles' Club LXIII: Sitting Bull of the Native Americans

[dalamb]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Sitting Bull of the Native Americans, whom we last played in NC VII. The Native Americans start with Agriculture and Fishing.

• Traits: Sitting Bull is PHIlosophical, meaning he generates Great People Points twice as fast, and PROtective, meaning walls and castles can be built faster, and archery and gunpowder units start with City Garrison I and Drill I. The latter synergizes with the UB.
• The UB: The Totem Pole, a monument that gives +3 XP to archery units (but. sadly, not gunpowder ones). With a barracks and PRO, this means an archery unit starts with 6 XP -- two promotions, which takes archers to Drill III or City Garrison III. If you get to Feudalism before everyone else, it's possible that Drill III longbows can conquer a few cities for you.
  
  
• The UU: The Dog Soldier, a resourceless but weaker axeman (4 instead of 5).
  

And the start:

Spoiler map details :

Great Plains, regenerated until we were actually near the plains and had some farmable food nearby. These maps are somewhat like the actual American Great Plains: mountains and deserts to the west, forests to the east, the Gulf (ocean) to the southeast, and plains, hills, and grasslands in the middle.

Spoiler edits :

I moved us slightly west to get the nearest Mighty Buffalo (cows) in the BFC. Since our UU is resourceless, and thus adding metals to our neighbours significantly weakens it, I did not change the RNGs decisions about which of our AIs get copper/iron nearby -- maybe all of them do, maybe none, maybe somewhere in between.

Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do request that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards.

Tentative posting updates are suggested at:

4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other continent if applicable, etc)
1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

Remember, these are only guidelines. What we really want are your thoughts as the game goes on, so if your strategies don't fall into line with those dates, feel free to adjust your reports accordingly.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps for most of the series, and all of you for playing.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 63 Sitting Bull Noble" (or Monarch, if you want the AI to start with its usual Archery bonus tech, or Immortal for Archery+Hunting, or Deity to add Agriculture). This allows you to play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Note for those who hate goody huts: open the WB save file with a text editor and delete all lines that say

ImprovementType=IMPROVEMENT_GOODY_HUT

 

[dalamb]

Reserved.

 

[drlake]

Cool, I'll give his a try later tonight or tomorrow.

 

[drlake]

To 1200BC (turn 70) on Emperor/Normal:

Spoiler :

I'm going to play this through in smaller chunks, and try to post each stage for comments.

Build order at Cahokia: Worker > Warrior x3 > Chariot > Settler (interrupt to build a Dog soldier) > Worker > Settler > Worker > Barracks > Library (whipped).

Build order at Poverty Point: Totem Pole > Great Wall (failure gold, bah) > Library.

Build order at Mount City: Totem Pole (whipped).

Tech order: Hunting > AH > TW > Mining > BW > Pottery > Mysticism > Writing > Masonry > Aesthetics (finish in 15). The Fur right next door allowed for a fast start with Hunting for the camp.

With the stone near by, a resourceless UU, protective civ, seemingly lots of room around me, and only horses for a strategic resource I decided to start with peaceful expansion, and look toward a medieval longbow/cat war as the first war I'll initiate. I'm planning on building the Pyramids, probably in Poverty Point once the border pops and the quarry is done. Cahokia will concentrate on popping out a couple more settler and troop combos for expansion, while Mound City gets established. I need to get more exploring done too, but had some bad luck with barbarians early on so I'm behind on that. After Aesthetics is done, I'll get Archery while I look to trade Aes around for Alphabet and IW, at least.

Here are the basic screenies:

 

[obsolete]

Deity - NSC


Well, SB is interesting since he's the #1 under-rated leader in the box. Anyhow, the bad news for me is I never ended up using his protective trait, or even the UU the way this map was laid out

Spoiler :

Good news is we rode the early stone + Philo trait to victory nevertheless (wink).

Not much to say, same old same old world stop-a-thon with cavalry. But I really do wish protective gave SOME sort of bonus to mounted units, as it still feels like such a waste.

First to lib, and for some reason the AI's were teching HORRIBLY SLOW on this map. Not sure what was up with that... though there were a few wars going on.

The Americans got the jump on egypt early in the game, even vassaling Egypt, but then they were nice enough to leave hardly any defenders in their capital or other key cities when they marched their SoDs elsewhere on the map and I had a bunch of cuirassiers while teching my way to cavalry [wink]. I guess you can figure out what happened to the two of them after that.

Needless to say, nothing spectacular except a quick grinding down of one city to the next. Don't remember anything worth even taking a screen shot over.

 

[[username]]

Noble/Marathon, 1000 BC

Spoiler :

Because of my accidental one-off-coast capital placing in NC Montezuma, I decided to try out this thing. Not good, but not bad as well. Settled one tile south by the way.

With stone nearby and being Phi, I decided to go for the pyramids. After Augustus got Stonehenge REALLY early, I was already afraid of losing the pyramids race, expecially after later Ramesses showed his wonderspamming face as well, but somehow I built them.

Poverty Point's wonderspam continued. Not sure if I shouldn't have invested these hammers into units or settlers instead though. Well, it DID speed up...

Me getting a GE. Not sure what to do with him yet. Settle in production city for the longterm bonus? Burn for the Great Library? Hmmm...

The Empire at this point. Plan is to say introduce Augustus or Freddy or even both to my HAs. Their land looks tasty, and once they're dead, in can conveniently settle my backyard without any haste (especially since I have the GW)
As for tech... I have the worker techs, HBR, Sailing, Writing and Archery. Maybe forgot something, not sure. Text target is maths because t opens up so much and getting more hammers from the forests near Chaco Canyon and Mesa Verde won't hurt as well. A literature beeline will probably follow to then rush the GL in Mound City.

 

[vranasm]

hehe drlake my first round is too to 1200BC, 70 turns :-D

Emperor normal, since I didnt played seriously for something like 6 weeks i would like some input

Spoiler :

Stone nearby, so target was done... Pyramids and scientists.
So i did the usual, ah first (nice we have horses in bfc), mining, wheel, bw (well I thought slavery could be useful, but no forests to chop :-(, and DS), masonry, writing, myst now, pottery will be next

T69 I got mids home, starting library in cap,

settled 3 cities. West at stone, north with deer+corn+hills, preparing 4th settler which will go to the east deer+riverside grassland.

I am not sure with wars, but I think there will be a lot of tension, since room is sparse and we are near north.

screens



Thoughts anyone?

 

[drlake]

@vranasm

Spoiler :

Bummer about AC putting his city so close to Mound City. I'm hoping I got MC settled in time to prevent that, in my game. Good move on getting the Mids done so quickly, though. By settling with stone in the 2 ring I got what I think is a lot stronger long-term location (3 cows + stone in the BFC) but at the cost of missing out on the Great Wall (though I may not have gotten it anyway) and starting the Mids late.

You might want to make an effort to work the Fur, since it's the only high commerce tile available, at least until you get some cottages developed. I used the whip to finish the Library in Cahokia and Totem pole in MC, and you might want to do that as well as whip out one in PP to get cultural borders out.

 

[vranasm]

@vranasm

Spoiler :

Bummer about AC putting his city so close to Mound City. I'm hoping I got MC settled in time to prevent that, in my game. Good move on getting the Mids done so quickly, though. By settling with stone in the 2 ring I got what I think is a lot stronger long-term location (3 cows + stone in the BFC) but at the cost of missing out on the Great Wall (though I may not have gotten it anyway) and starting the Mids late.

You might want to make an effort to work the Fur, since it's the only high commerce tile available, at least until you get some cottages developed. I used the whip to finish the Library in Cahokia and Totem pole in MC, and you might want to do that as well as whip out one in PP to get cultural borders out.

Spoiler :

well I am undecided on it.
I tried some variations with the cap as is... and to me it seems that slowbuild of library without working furs is somewhat best. I would whip population from good tiles
and not working the hills and working furs doesnt bring enough food.

to the north I plan to whip library for sure. But that north city looks sooo great for production, cottages and scientists that I have really big dilemma what to do with that place!
the western city will provide worker/settler pump as is. You're right that your spot is better providing 3 cows and stone is really great. I went with short term and having stone and grass cow in 1st ring since as you can see I didnt prioritize myst.

edit: I didnt went for GW, seeing this is almost pangea map and AIs provide enough barb prevention.

 

[vranasm]

I played a bit further to 425BC and now it's decision time

Spoiler :

well I met a point where I traded a lot of techs around, I didnt go the usual aesth line, but instead Math->Currency and I brokered this 2 techs around giving me Alpha, IW, sailing and a lot of gold for this time being.

I initially was planning an early AD cat war, but seeing the tech situation I could start working on lib line, CoL in 4 turns, then CS etc. I should get some GSs along.

From Mids I got engineer, he's sleeping in capital and dunno if it's worth to wait for some wonder with him or settle him directly.

I have 6 cities, soon 7, I will settle that hilled spot nw from capital. AIs are all kind of leveled with Washington being a bit too strong.

War against frederick can have its merit, but I don't have production city prepared, so I stopped giving it time and I hope some advice from peops here.

screens

Spoiler :

this time with save

 

[drlake]

I need to play further before I'll look at your screenies, to avoid spoilers.

 

[enKage]

I took Noble save and play on Monarch difficulty, Normal speed

As for the starting position, I chose to move settler left to get 2 cows instead of corn, just for production - I wanted resourceless dog soldiers rush

And what happened... till 975 BC
Feel free to comment what I've done wrong

Spoiler :

I explored west and discover plenty of cows! wow excellent for my plan! First tech to research was AH, at this time Cahokia was producing worker to get profit of this.

First rival I met was Shaka, but first borders - Babylonian - oh no!! What about my rush - I though, but after AH I got horses near Cahokia! Hurray!
After worker I skipped some turns on barracks and after city grew to pop2, I switched production to settlers, then:



Teching that moment: agriculture, mining, wheel to connect horses, bw... hunting.. skipped archery, don't have it even now.

Cahokia was producing 2 worker than finished barracks than worker and settler, to settle a commerce city

As I had 3 cities, in the south Americans were expanding quite nice, so they woill be the target of my dogs!

Anyway, first I prepared to disturb babylonian existance



And you can't believe it (or at least I couldn't)
2 chariots! - This is what I had after taking Babylon defended by only 2 (two!!!!) Bowmans! I was losing nearly everything, even though my chariots were combat1 and hade greater combat odds



Anyway - Babylon was worth of that - HC of judaism and Hinduism and Stonehenge built - nice taking into account what my UB is !

Unfortunately I am not able to take the second Babylonian city even though there is only 1 bowman and 1 warrior. I was not producing any more chariots, but dogsoldiers instead to tak americans.
Finally near the save date i produced some new chariots - I want to reze their second city, and settle there one tile north - I will have all cows in range, but in addition get +2 health from rver.

So at this stage: 5 workers, 4 cities, 2 religions, stonehenge, 4-5 chariots and no commerce problems yet.
Having 2 highly productive cities, I started Oracle

 

[drlake]

I missed my planned update by a couple of turns. Emperor/Normal to AD25 (turn 116):

Spoiler :

Not much to report, really. I've decided to focus on quality over quantity in cities. No metals in easy reach,and I would have had to build a city farther than I like in a bad location to get any. No matter! I'm going to focus on GPs and wonders for the moment. My tech lead is going to net me the Great Library in 10 turns, even though I don't have Marble. After I finish the Hanging Gardens (in 1 turn) in Poverty Point I'll be about 14 turns from a GE. I've switched out of specs until that happens, but after it does I'll be back to running rep scientist specs in Mound City and Cahokia (plus the GL will be up in Cahokia, of course).

All of my neighbors seem to have metals, but no matter. I can hold what I have well enough (no one has gone WHEOOHRN yet anyway) with Longbows and Cats (in the future). I've been able to trade techs fairly well, and with rep scientists can maintain a nice tech pace when I want to push it. I'm a few turns from Music and the Great Artist for that (golden age or culture bomb? probably golden age). After Music, I should probably work towards Feudalism and Civil Service.

Screenies:

 

[drlake]

@vranasm

Spoiler :

I'd probably build up what you have before worrying about expanding further. You've got a lot of fairly small cities that could benefit from some infrastructure, and as they grow (and you get Libraries built) you'll be able to really leverage the pyramids with the bonus GPs of a Philosophical leader. That's basically what I've been doing, though with fewer cities (and maybe more focus on wonders?). I'd get some scouts out into your neighbors so you can better plan a war, since anything you do now will be blind.

 

[vranasm]

@enKAge

Spoiler :

since you took noble save for monarch attempt i suppose you're not playing on monarch yet? Biggest change should be that AIs on noble start without archery and have to tech it first.
1320BC for chariot rush seems late, but it's somewhat understandable you had problems without forests around capitol.
I think you did strategic mistake, you should have go against rome, since his praets are much more dangerous then bowman of hammu.

at first screenshot you have 8 chariots... well against archers you should calculate with 2-3:1 odds against city on flat land, if you go against hill city 4:1 odds. So there is really no surprise that out of 8 chariots against 2 bows you have 2 chariots, you shouldnt stop building chariots.

Dog soldiers are useless as rush unit, if you did for the rush you should have stick to chariots and no look further. I used them as defense because I am doing peaceful aproach in BCs.

too bad you missed pyramids since with stone nearby i think they are clear choice even if it means no rush. Seeing babylon the land is no spectacular either.
From the map type it seems that better land is to the east (grass rivers etc)...

I wouldnt attack wash with DS as main force. Look into finishing hammu (whipping some chariots?) and wait for ren. war preferably.

 

[vranasm]

@drlake

Spoiler :

thanks I thought so.

Btw lol at your hindu happyfest you got there in your game , interesting that you have wash and rome strong too... wash is really great leader and I think a bit underestimated by community.

I hope that in my game rome will fight with wash through religious differences. I would like to absorb germany soonish

 

[drlake]

@vranasm

Spoiler :

Yeah, I'm feeling a bit nervous between the two religious blocs. If either comes at me in the near future, I'm toast. I should probably prioritize necessary military techs (to get to Longbows, HAs, and Cats) for both defense and for possible aggression to get some metal, probably from Hammy.

If I can avoid getting into a war with either Washington or AC for a while I'll be OK. I'd rather grab Hammy first, even though that'll give me Shaka for a neighbor. He's doing surprisingly well at teching too, thanks to the Gold he's got in his area.

 

[dalamb]

Just far enough for a first dotmap:

Spoiler :

Since combat isn't all that fun for me my current plan is to take out my nearest couple of neighbours then settle down for either space or culture.

Settled in place (having preselected my preferred starting location when making the map), tech'd mining > bronze working > mysticism, the latter for totem poles once I could afford to build one in a production city. By then I located the stone to the west (which I knew was there, of course) In retrospect I didn't need masonry anywhere near this soon; wheel > pottery made more sense after BW than what I did, since by now I've just finished pottery and don't have a settler yet. I found a lot of un-popped huts even near AI territory -- I guess they weren't exploring all that well -- so managed to get a couple of scouts (one of which has died), some gold, and two techs (hunting and wheel).

By 2375 BC I've found territory for all my rivals, but as some of you have probably discovered you can't back away far enough to get a decent globe in only 2 maps, so I've left out the usual "world as I know it" screens.

Here's my dotmap; I expect to build two settlers as soon as my granary is done. ISTM Red (NW) is by far the best choice for a 2nd city, to the point of being worth an early war against Augustus: 4 food sources and some decent production means a good GP farm or a good production site, and a GP farm seems pretty important for a PHI leader. The alternative might be to split the food between two cities, but I'm not sure that's worth giving up the extra GP farm food given that Augustus would probably get the 2nd of 2 sites. Light blue would be nice for stone for the 'mids, but once again I wonder if I should split the Buffalo (cows) between 2 sites.

Advice appreciated.

 

[vranasm]

@dalamb

what difficulty?

Spoiler :

On emperor rome got there city first to your red dot. I would settle it on river anyway though, I placed it 2W

teal is ok if you don't need stone soonish (i placed it 1SE on cow for 1st ring stone and cow and T69 mids).
You should plan another city SE form cap for deer+some hills and A LOT grass river tiles. There will be big commerce spot.

that are probably best spots on the map...you can add some cities around, but this 4 will be your basics.

 

[enKage]

@enKAge

Spoiler :

since you took noble save for monarch attempt i suppose you're not playing on monarch yet?

I play on Monerch but nearly always lose (ekhm, retire, if not Mongolian or Roman) when i try to play aggresively from the beggining and not on Marathon. So if someone will show me my mistakes on slightly easier save game, I think I could introduce better strategies on my everyday games and practice on them. i hope to play next NC using more difficult settings and finally make a succesful try on Emperor.

When not played agressivly, I usually beat monarch games (mainly late culture or spaceship).

Thanks for your comments