Nobles' Club LXX: Sulieman of the Ottomans

[dalamb]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Sulieman of the Ottoman Empire, whom we last played in NC XXII; we played his fellow Ottoman, Mehmen II, in NC XL. The Ottomans start with Agriculture and The Wheel, which happen to fulfill the prerequisites for Pottery if you want to go for early granaries (and cottages).

• Traits: Sulieman is Imperialistic and Philosophical. IMP gives faster settlers and Great Generals; PHI gives faster Great People (and Universities).
• The UB: The Hammam, an Aqueduct with +2 -- both happiness and health in the same building, which might make it a high priority for many cities early in the game.
  
  
• The UU: The Janissary, a Musketman with +25% vs melee, archery, and mounted units -- basically everything pre-gunpowder. As with Zara, this suggests a Gunpowder beeline.
  

And the start:

Personally, based just on what's visible, I wonder if moving 2NE 1N to the jungle might give a better start.

Spoiler map details :

LARGE, 3 custom continents, high sea level (thus less land), 12 opponents (4 more than the usual 8). It'll be crowded! We agreed on this cycle to try some "different" maps, and people seemed to think Large would be OK once in a while -- though Huge was beyond what most found comfortable.

Spoiler edits :

Regenerated until

• We got an agricultural resource in the BFC.
• The map didn't look totally weird
• There wasn't an obvious place where one AI got too much uncontested territory.

Since there are so many AIs, I didn't check whether all of them had nearby strategic resources.

Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do request that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards.

Tentative posting updates are suggested at:

4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other continent if applicable, etc)
1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

Remember, these are only guidelines. What we really want are your thoughts as the game goes on, so if your strategies don't fall into line with those dates, feel free to adjust your reports accordingly.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps for most of the series, and all of you for playing.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 70 Sulieman Noble" (or Monarch, if you want the AI to start with its usual Archery bonus tech, or Immortal for Archery+Hunting, or Deity to add Agriculture). This allows you to play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

Note for those who hate goody huts: open the WB save file with a text editor and delete all lines that say

ImprovementType=IMPROVEMENT_GOODY_HUT

Or, just use Capellan's saves.

 

[dalamb]

Reserved.

 

[A_Hamster]

That's a rich start. Yes, moving to the jungle looks good. Marble means I can go for the GL, my favorite wonder and turn the capital into a GP farm. More later, when I am at home and can actually play instead of just reading the forum on a break.

 

[i_imperator]

Sining in , Emperor Normal .

 

[Nicol.Bolas]

well, for some fuzzy feeling I opened map spoiler.......

the information about map size should not be in spoiler
even if play random, you choose this.

I should not be forced to open spoiler, which contains details that experienced player does not want to know a front.

but really map size should not be in spoiler.
look at the GOTM format on info to how you should approach this.

if the general agreement is to play standard maps on normal, then everything should be notified.

ie if i didnt look, i would play this at +1 diffculty for large size without epic speed (which is -1 mod)
ie the standrad is to play normal speedfor duel-standart, large=epic, huge=marathon.
otherwise many victory conditions arent possible and it might be even +2 difficulty mod



moving 2NW 1N I wont do it. the gems wont be avaiable for ages, at cost of 2 turns, which is a huge snowball on large map

 

[Capellan]

Saves with no huts. Evil, evil huts.

 

[dalamb]

the information about map size should not be in spoiler

I've posted a discussion-starter in the bullpen.

 

[Peachrocks]

TMIT convinced me to look into this.

I can win reliably on Emperor and about 50/50 on immortal, so let's go with immortal so TMIT can make fun of me again about how terrible I am.

 

[TheDanish]

Sulieman is my new favorite leader. Very balanced for warfare and growth - his UB is great and I love me some Janissary pushes.

Was contemplating Monarch for this one, but I think I'll have some fun and stick with Prince for some quick REXing and Janissary warfare.

As for capital location, 2NE doesn't look bad, and it doesn't use another turn by going an additional 1N. It also nets two plains hills for and a floodplains.

 

[Zx Zero Zx]

Well then this map is about as flawed as MC Vicky.

Spoiler :

Zara easily becomes a run away AI. By 1000 or so BC he was up to 10 cities. Large maps don't need a super expanding AI with all the room in the world to expand into and back fill into. Hell I even chariot rushed Cathy, and at that I was only up to 5 cities. If I hadn't I would have had maybe 3 cities, 4 if I really pushed it and shared tiles. This map is not a good map for higher levels. On deity it's probably impossible.

And what's up with a no huts WB but not a no random events? Random events are 1000000000 times worse than huts. They had stupid fake difficulty, and hax you out of the game.

 

[bloodmech21]

first time posting in one of these... i forgot take screen shots but ill try to remember next time.

played on monarch

Spoiler :

Settled 3N on the plains hill, probably a bad idea to blow TWO turns on that but it didnt seem to cause me grief in the end. had a lot of river side and hills so i farmed and mined all i could. Settled 6 strong well placed cities... would have gone for 7 had i known the map size... assumed standard so i screwed myself out of oxford. stopped at 6 since i had gotten all the best land and any other potential city sites were mostly terrible and remote.

Was doing really well in tech, easily out pacing the other 4 AI on the continent and since the only religion on the continent was confucianism i didnt have to worry about early wars. i easily got lib and took nationalism and began teching towards gunpower to go janisaries/catapults (eventually cannons + rifles) against cathy who had gotten sistine chapel and was going culture. Unfortunately soon after i started hammering out jannisaries catherine and suryvaryman both peace vassaled to Zara who had also capitulated alex earlier. (alex was the one who declared of couse lol...) Immediately they began trading and swapping techs like mad and in almost no time flat i went from a considerable tech lead to tech parity against a massive Zara with 3 vassals, one of which was going culture with sistine chapel...

Miraculously, catherine eventually broke free from zara and i took this opprotunity to declare on her with 30~ infantry and 20~cannons and easily took 3 of her core cities including moscow and things were looking good... untill Monte with a vassal shaka, brennus, and ramses were bribed in and my offensive on catherine hit a wall after she had begun spamming units. my peace treaty with zara (begged for 1 gold) had worn off and he had begun plotting, presumably on me, or would have no doubt been bribed in, i had monte and ramses landing on me and mass pillaging my tiles... at that point i quit out of frustration. probably should have expanded more early on or gone for a classical war with cats and axes...

 

[Capellan]

@Zx Zero Zx
You can turn events simply by ticking the appropriate option in 'Custom Scenario'. That doesn't work for huts, so you need specific saves without them.

As far as the map being "flawed" goes, I'm not seeing it. But

Spoiler :

I am playing at Noble, since I felt like just kicking butt and having a relaxed game.

.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Prince/no huts/events

1000 AD- rage quit

Spoiler :

Used horse archers to take Cathy's core cities, but my economy was tanked. But with the new cities, building research easily took me to currency. Meanwhile, I picked up the Parthenon with the marble. Almost got the GLibrary but another unknown civ took it-- fail gold was nice and I really only spent a few turns and chops on it. Then, I took a shot for Sistine for some more fail gold, but actually finished it. I decided to hoard up the music GA to start a golden age so I can push for Lib.

Everything's going well... AND THEN THE ENTIRE CONTINENT PEACEVASSALED TO ZARA. He was only a little ahead of me on tech, but now I'm just screwed. Well ok, I must have overreacted since I hit alt-f4 the moment I saw that.

Meh. Should have moved faster to take out Catherine completely. I shouldn't have spent those hammers on the GW. Also insomnia-civ4 leads to suboptimal play; might as well give it a shot again when I'm awake. Then go for culture or something.

I also wasn't planning to rush, but then Catherine's so close! I've never done a horse archer rush so I felt like trying it out; HAs are quite strong, it's too bad HBR costs so much beakers.

 

[i_imperator]

Saves with no huts. Evil, evil huts.

Thanks capellan!

 

[Capellan]

Noble/Normal/1770 AD, no huts or events

I'm a (more or less) Emperor-level player, so this is just for a relaxing game after the grind of MC Vicky

Spoiler :

SIP, knock Cathy back to 1 city. Expand to 9 cities. Have lots of cottages. Belatedly remember I am philosophical and run some scientists

Get CoL, found taoism. First religion on continent so everyone converts. Spam missionaries and deliberately try to produce a GP as my next great person. Succeed and shrine for about +45 gold per turn.

Blow AI out of water tech-wise. Greece in particular is backward, teching Alphabet around when I tech gunpowder.

Cathy sees I am running HR and same religion as her and suddenly I am her sugar daddy. She peace vassals to me.

I declare on Alex with trebs and janissaries vs longbows and swords. Take two cities and kill most of the defenders of Athens. He caps. I return one of the cities, but keep the one near my borders (the 2nd one was on the other side of Cathy from me).

Swing north, now building rifles and cannons, and blast Sury off the continent. He's down to island cities to the north, and capitulates as well.

1770 AD I have 15+ cannon, about 20 Infantry, and Zara hasn't teched gunpowder yet. I have Mining Inc spreading across my empire and will get Sid's in a few turns. I don't actually have a lot of sea food, but I have enough - and I'll have more when I start invading other continents.

Overseas, Cyrus is huge but backward, Ragnar is tiny but surprisingly advanced (nowhere near me, but by the standards of the other AIs ...). Justinian is about to tech rifling, and seems to be the strongest overall AI.

So I'll crush Zara, tech combustion (I have oil in Sury's old lands) and build a fleet. Then I'll sweep westward through the southern continent: Ramesses, Justinian, Shaka and Monty. Shouldn't present much problem. After that, either Diplomation via UN, or domination via a second intercontinental assault. Either way, I expect to win well before the time limit, despite it being a large map

 

[Kreda]

Wow, that's a really weird map... Emperor/normal

Spoiler :

I managed to take most of cathy's cities with swords+cats. Got dow'ed 2 times by alex in the BC's too, but managed to push him off. After I signed peace with Cathy, the whole continent peacevassaled to Zara. I was pretty much screwed from this point.
I played a bit longer and eventually managed to catch up in tech around 1400 AD, but later on Zara capped Monty and Shaka on the other continent so I just quit at this point, there's no way I'm going to compete with him now.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

FWIW I had some morale-lowering encounters early on during this on immortal/epic, but that is partially related to map size and once I realized that it wasn't nearly as bad.

Speaking of map size, it should *not* be a spoiler, ever. There are all kinds of settings and such that can surprise a player, however anybody can just open the game settings and see map size plain as day. Even map TYPE is debate-able, as non-WB saves never, ever hide map type (though shuffle will still force on to guess).

Leaving lucky huts and events on by default is a serious blow to this series and every other series where multiple people play the same start on the forum. Competition, it isn't, but even so people are going to vary their strategies based on hut luck.

Case in point: Not paying attention, I played this map with huts on. I got very early stonehenge. Has someone here attempted that wonder and missed it by 10-15 turns? Yeah, you suck and I don't because I have hut luck . You should have been luckier w/ the huts.

Axe rush with BW pop, HA rush with HBR pop? Sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo meaningful to other players learning the game. Not.

 

[huerfanista]

Emperor normal, no huts/no events, thru 1665AD:

Spoiler :

I decided to settle on one of the 2 plains hills to the north, so I moved my warrior NE and settler NW (doesn't lose and food specials, reveals more tiles). When the forest gems showed up I settled there, even without fresh water. Beelined writing and built a settler at size 2. Cathy still beat me to the FPs to the east, so I settled on the desert hill to the SE to grab the copper + FPs + grass riverside. Next city settled to grab the wheat/gems. I ran scientists at size 5 in the capital and quickly popped 2. Meanwhile I set up the gunpowder/scientist bulb path: math> aesth> alpha. Cathy got alpha after I'd put a couple of turns into it, so I traded math for it, and traded alpha for IW + myst. Built a settler to grab the iron to the south (4 cities now), annd used my 3 GSs to bulb MC + machinery and build an academy. Went poly> lit> music while trading for monarchy, and built the GLib + NE in Istanbul. Parth went in the SE city, Sistine in the NE (2 gems) city. Then I headed for construction> feudalism. 4th GS bulbed engineering to 1 turn, 5th bulbed GP to 5 turns after I finished guilds. I started building Jans/trebs. Alex DoWed, but I walled his attack easily and and bribed Zara on him, then bought out for 50. Cathy founded the first religion on the continent: taoism . Everyone converted, so relations with Sury, Cathy, and Zara were very easy. I was getting ready to DOW Cathy when stupid Alex declared on me again (HAs + cats + swords vs Jans - seriously?). This time I razed one of his cities and he bought out for techs + gold. Meanwhile, Sury declared on Zara, which kept the 2 of them busy while I declared on Cathy. She had knights + maces, but they're no match for 2-promo Jans (I was in vassalage). I easily took 5 of her cities (including Moscow and StPete, the taoist holy city) and capped her. Then I rolled thru Alex and capped him after taking Athens + 2 other cities. I built Oxford in Moscow (Istanbul had the 2 epics), and managed to pop a prophet to build the taoist shrine in St. Pete.

Sury had easily won lib, so I bulbed education and went for MilTrad. I built up a bunch of cuirassiers, which I upgraded to cavalry once I got to rifling. I declared on Sury and took 3 of his cities and capped him (he didn't have RP yet). Zara is next - he only has GP and cavalry are the anti-oromos. I'll have 4 strong vassals, so this shouldn't be too tough from here.

 

[Capellan]

1862 AD, Noble/Normal etc - see above

Spoiler :

Zara is gone. Sorry man, you were useful in the BCs when I set you on Alex (even if you lost a city in the war, you kept that nutter from DOWs of his own) but you were surplus to requirements in the 19th century. The world only needs one Taoist Theocrat, and that's me.

Took all of Zara's cities except two that the Vikings got to first - one was on the Viking continent, the other on mine. Ragnar is welcome to the first. For the second, he is learning the power of Sushi. His city is down to 4 tiles, and the city tile itself is over 40% Ottoman already

The fleet is nearly ready: 3 carriers (only 2 fighters, but will fly the others in as the fleet sails), 15 destroyers and 10 transports. I've got infantry and cannons, with marines just starting to be built. Ramesses has maces. I don't expect too much trouble

 

[stimpyhoek]

Spoiler :

Just felt like war this game and the capital is out of sight.... So chops and chops of chariots was hanging around Russia with 3 chariots hoping to see a settler when I got 4 I attacked moscow which had a chariot and archer in it. Built 2 more chariots and I killed 2nd city 1760bc. Nearly got horse archers and have 3 towns.