Nobles' Club LXXI: Churchill of England

[Larwin]

Spoiler :

I think my opening is ok just need a few minor improvements. Partly because I wasn't sure where I was going to send my settler. Horses or gold or somewhere between.
I'm playing on noble at normal speed.

 

[Um the Muse]

@ dalamb:

Oh, I see now. OK, that does seem like a good way of showcasing what different leaders can do. When I posted that, I had skipped over the spoiler.

For those not paying attention--er, I mean, those who don't want to spoil the surprise--the map has been adjusted a little, but the changes are surprisingly little.

My take on those changes:

Spoiler :

I definitely don't mind a food start. That seems like a good change to showcase a fishing civ. The addition of stone seems a little random, though. I'm guessing it's because we're protective? It's way out there, so I assume you meant for us to have it for 1/4 priced castles? Or do you consider it early enough for pyramids?

 

[Um the Muse]

@Larwin:

Spoiler :

I'm thinking that using the whip so early is a bit of a mistake: you still have that marble, and plenty of hills. IMO, whipping is only better if you either can't get hammers for that city, or you absolutely need the unit NOW. This is especially true when you don't have a hammer multiplier. I think you should've gotten masonry before AH in this case.
As for where to found your second city, that's a toughie. One issue that I noticed is that you explored the peninsula, then fortified in place, right? Well, that left a lot of land near your capital that you haven't explored yet. In general, if you start out near a chokepoint or in the middle of the map, you should consider building a second unit to help you explore. It's kind of too bad that you ended up instantly hooked up to the copper, because that means that you can't build warriors to help you explore, and it's not worth researching hunting this early just for one scout.

Given what you know of the map, I would go for the gold. I almost never want to build a city without a food resource, even if it means borrowing from another city. After all, surplus food becomes less desirable the more you grow.

I think that you should see if you can get there by foot first. If not (and I'm not telling if you can or not), then you could look at the horse alternative. If it comes to that, I'd settle where I can grab the cows, too.

 

[Kaosprophet]

@Larwin:

<cut to point in spoiler>

Spoiler :

It's kind of too bad that you ended up instantly hooked up to the copper, because that means that you can't build warriors to help you explore, and it's not worth researching hunting this early just for one scout.

Given what you know of the map, I would go for the gold. I almost never want to build a city without a food resource, even if it means borrowing from another city. After all, surplus food becomes less desirable the more you grow.

Spoiler :

Warriors don't obsolete until you have both Hunting and Bronzeworking to enable Spearmen. So you can still pop out a few to explore.

I usually spam warriors for exploring/fogbusting until my capital has grown to at least size 4 or 5 before starting on a settler. It seems slower, but the settler builds a fair bit faster and I've got a couple guys out clearing the path so my settler doesn't get jumped by a ninja-panther or something. Also gives me a better idea of where I want my first settler or two.

For example, in this game we already see that we've most likely blocked off all that land to the west just from our capital. Unless there's something ridiculous there *or* there's nothing to the east at all, then it's better to start settling east for two reasons:
1) that's the land we'll be competing with AIs for, so we want to get there first and 'backfill' the stuff they can't get to later.
2) We want some buffer between the AI and our capital if the AI gets hostile and we have to go defensive. Better for them to be pillaging around our 'frontier' while the production center of our capital remains untouched than for them to be pillaging our Capital. Obviously a worst-case scenario, but worth thinking about.

And on this map, that gold to the East has the best potential for being 'something ridiculous' anyway if we can reach it.

 

[Optical]

1964 AD Cultural victory, 9920 normalised score (Shaka Zulu).

 

[i_imperator]

1944AD Domination Win.
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.-Winston Churchill

Spoiler :

Ok, first of all i've gotta say this, if i have ever played an intense end game in my civ career this has got to be it. I managed to get to 10 cities by 400AD, and i got the great library and sistine chaple. I was'nt the first to music, (i was teching it but i noticed that mansa got it). I won lib around 1050AD, and took printing press, i could've eningeer rushed the Taj but i noticed that Roosevelt had Nationlism so i kept the Engineer for Mining Inc. I later got a GM for sid sushi aswell. Hence i stayed in FM for the entire game.

After lib i teched to demo, and then out to Railroad/Assembly Line and Arty. I spammed Infanty and Arty,using rush buy and i was planning to go for mansa, as he was closing in on culture, but so was Hatty and Asoka. However i have defen pact with roosevelt and hatty dowed on him, dowing on me in the process. I did'nt mind. Hatty had Khan as a vassle and about 30% land, i her captured the coastle cities near me and pushed into Alexandria, when she was willing to take peace.

This was great for me, because i managed to bribe mansa into war with hatty, I originally wanted to attack mansa, but he had a defen pact with Asoka. Bribing him into woar broke that. When i was ready to dow on him he was still at war with hatty. This slowed his culture attempt a bit. I love backstabbing!!

I razed one of mansa's soon to be legendary cities and captured about 5 other cities including his Cap. There goes his culture attempt.

But wait, asoka is now a threat for culture, and i decided to attack him with marines/Tat nukes on subs and Tanks.However i got the wonder that won the game for me.

On turn 1 of the war i nuked and razed deli, Nuked that city that begins with Z, and bombey. When i razed deli not only did i destroy alot of wonders but i noticed on the vic screen that hatty was about 30 turns from winning culture.



I instantyl dowed on her and nuked the crap out of her three culture cities. I took awhile but once i got her to 7 cities she capped. I built wealth everywhere and pushed up the culture slider, 6 turns later i had won Domination. Man that was an intense game, but a heck load of fun, thanks Dalamb. Here are some end game pics and a save. The score was'nt great, but who cares!?!?! I havent won domination for awhile, it was a nice change. Looking foward to the next one.

 

[Larwin]

@Um the Muse

@Larwin:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

I'm thinking that using the whip so early is a bit of a mistake: you still have that marble, and plenty of hills. IMO, whipping is only better if you either can't get hammers for that city, or you absolutely need the unit NOW. This is especially true when you don't have a hammer multiplier. I think you should've gotten masonry before AH in this case.
As for where to found your second city, that's a toughie. One issue that I noticed is that you explored the peninsula, then fortified in place, right? Well, that left a lot of land near your capital that you haven't explored yet. In general, if you start out near a chokepoint or in the middle of the map, you should consider building a second unit to help you explore. It's kind of too bad that you ended up instantly hooked up to the copper, because that means that you can't build warriors to help you explore, and it's not worth researching hunting this early just for one scout.

Given what you know of the map, I would go for the gold. I almost never want to build a city without a food resource, even if it means borrowing from another city. After all, surplus food becomes less desirable the more you grow.

I think that you should see if you can get there by foot first. If not (and I'm not telling if you can or not), then you could look at the horse alternative. If it comes to that, I'd settle where I can grab the cows, too.

Spoiler :

I'll try to remember that about having another warrior to explore. I see if I can expand north first then back fill with the next settler maybe alternate between north and south. I may or may not win this game but I see what you mean by using warriors to explore since they the cheapest unit. btw My warrior finished the peninsula so he can maybe uncover where my fourth city might be I'm thinking of putting third city to connect the horses and maybe have a chariot to explore with. I think they are good early defense and a little faster. I guess I could make 1 axeman to help the warrior fogbust. I was kinda going on another game I did a similar start. I think every game is a little different and having 2 or 3 warriors to scout may be a lot better than just one . Thanks I will try to post another report after I settle a couple more cities and have the next part of the map partly revealed. I see if I can provide a save after that too.

 

[huerfanista]

Emperor/normal no huts or events, thru 1680AD:

Spoiler :

After reading the discussion on the "Oracle Options and Relative Value" thread, I decided to try out the feudalism gambit suggested by ahcos. I went WB> worker> WB while teching myst> poly> PH> wheel> pottery> writing> monarchy. I built 'henge for the CHA bonus after putting a turn of into the oracle so the AIs would stay away from it. Got oracle in 1000BC, then headed for masonry> math> construction> HBR> currency. Decleared on Mansa around 200AD with cats/LBs/HAs. Hatty traded me elephants, so I started adding those to the mix as well. Mansa capped after I took his capital and Confu holy city. The majority religion was hinduism (founded by Ashoka - Hatty, Roos, GK), although GK later switched to Confu. Khan was kept busy with Hatty and Roos (they held him off easily). I waited until he declared on Roos to him, and tore through him pretty easily (I had maces/trebs by then). I capped him after taking 5 cities. Looking at this big army and seeing that Ashoka - while having a big tech lead - was only defending with knights/LBs/maces, I decided to take him out and get that big fat hindu shrine for myself. I easily took all of his cities. After that it was just getting the rate up by building wealth in my older cities and courthouses + Forbidden Palace in the former Indian cities, and teching things that I could trade with (chem, MilSci). I popped a GSpy, which I infiltrated into Mansa and stole a bunch of stuff from him (even though he was my vassal, I had nothing to trade him). Got MilTrad, Nationalism from him. Now that my rate is speeding up, the plan is to tech to AL + steel, upgrade everything, power-up my vassals, and declare on Hatty and her vassals (Rood + Monty). Currently I have around 54% land, so it shouldn't take too long.

 

[dalamb]

@Um the Muse

Spoiler :

The addition of stone seems a little random, though. I'm guessing it's because we're protective? It's way out there, so I assume you meant for us to have it for 1/4 priced castles? Or do you consider it early enough for pyramids?

It's a little random, I admit, but in time for pyramids at some difficulty levels. I did it in one variant, but (a) I play at Prince and (b) I know the map in advance and (c) I use huts and managed to get Masonry through them and (d) I went for stone for my 3rd city ahead of some potentially better places, like SE near the horses.

@steveoh: wow! quite the endgame.
@huerfanista:

Spoiler :

I built 'henge for the CHA bonus after putting a turn of into the oracle so the AIs would stay away from it.

I had no idea the AIs avoided the oracle if I put a few hammers into it! Is that just for non-IND, non-marble leaders or do they all do it?

something I noticed about map after playing:

Spoiler :

In the game I already reported I started getting eaten alive by barbarians, because I postponed building axemen and chariots too long and there was lots of space for them to spawn both to our east and to our southwest. So, all that land for our cities can be a disadvantage for those of us who aren't so great at dealing with barbarians.

 

[Larwin]

Spoiler :

View attachment AutoSave_BC-1760.CivBeyondSwordSave
I probably made a lot of mistakes. Maybe should've not built the road connecting two cities but I forgot that sea routes were available on coastal cities. What i need help with is techs and priority unit builds and worker tasks. I was going to whip my second worker but forgot to do that hes one turn away from finishing so I guess he comes out next turn. My first worker is building a cottage on the floodplains by my second city. Should I focus on unit builds military or workers and settlers. Should I plan a few city improvements such as librarys and granaries. I made a few mistakes but that's how I learn. I'm understand micromanagement some but will get better after I play a little more. I'll try to go a little further maybe a little past 1000bc when i submit my next report or whatever is recomended. I will wait for a followup before I proceed on my game. Also what should be my concerns on open borders i know theres a couple aggressive AIs i met already so should I be concerned with who I make a friend and who I make an enemy and if it came to an early war can I play defensively?

 

[PeterWolf]

Downloading, might post for some advice later.

 

[Capellan]

@Larwin
You can post as often as you like - the point of the game is to learn, after all. Sticking to just the 'checkpoints' is not required.

Spoiler :

What's the logic of the placement of York?

You've got a grassland and floodplains river to your immediate east, and no plans to settle there?

You have no AIs to your west - focus your attention east for now. You also have no border contact with any AI - that almost always means you should focus on expansion as long as you can afford it.

You need more workers.

It would help if you put more context around your pictures - why did you research what you researched, what are your intentions, etc.

 

[Larwin]

@Larwin
You can post as often as you like - the point of the game is to learn, after all. Sticking to just the 'checkpoints' is not required.

Spoiler :

What's the logic of the placement of York?I wanted to get the gold resource and wanted a food source in my first square. and I didnt want the first city to grow unhappy. I see now that the flood plains may have been adequate. I'm still getting used to stategies on playing this game. My first decision may not always be the one someone else would make.

You've got a grassland and floodplains river to your immediate east, and no plans to settle there?I might try that I do not always see the big picture like a more experienced player would. I might put my next city there. I tend to look at resource maps more and get strategic resources hooked up asap. I can see now that the floodplains could be used more effeciently.

You have no AIs to your west - focus your attention east for now. You also have no border contact with any AI - that almost always means you should focus on expansion as long as you can afford it.Ok thats what I was thinking too. on one my pics I put the questions on I might consider the horses outside where theres more places to explore as another city spot. And wait on back cities til I have no more places to expand east ward. Theres at least one or two strong cities in the peninsula.

You need more workers.I know. I try to get 3 or 4 more workers before I build another settler. I think I need at least one more axe to attack if something invades my citys. I guess major defences can come later but I hate when the AI catches me unprepared lol.

It would help if you put more context around your pictures - why did you research what you researched, what are your intentions, etc.I get a different idea from every game I guess. I figure I will need all the techs eventually no matter which ones i do first. seems every game has a different list of tech priorities. I research what I know future techs I plan will need and also I research techs that allow workers tasks. I don't always make the same decision every game unless I know what I will need to do first. People been telling me food first and I always try to do that. and Bronze working as early as possible once food is available. slavery civic I have a little trouble with because one person tells me I should whip and another person tells me I should chop. my timing may be different than some players. I know I may not be a monarch player but I try to get help so I can get to that phase. I think I may have offended some people with earlier discussions. Problem is I feel I'm in a lower experience bracket than everyone else. I would like to shadow a few games to learn but at Noble fill I can manage a couple wins if I just do a few games.

Thanks Larwin

 

[Capellan]

@Larwin

Spoiler :

I wanted to get the gold resource and wanted a food source in my first square. and I didnt want the first city to grow unhappy. I see now that the flood plains may have been adequate.

A good way to avoid growing into unhappiness is to build workers and settlers

A farmed flood plain is 4F 1C, which is OK for early growth, and would have allowed a site that didn't have such a large overlap with your capital. You'll see that most people who SIP with the capital put a city 1S 3E of where you did.

I tend to look at resource maps more and get strategic resources hooked up asap. I can see now that the floodplains could be used more effeciently

Strategic resources are important, but we have copper in the capital here, so we're pretty good on that score. Flood plain and grassland river cities are almost always worth getting - they're easy to turn into strong commerce (from riverside cottages) or great person sites (from farms). If they have hills as well, they can be strong hammer sites too, via farms and mines.

 

[huerfanista]

@huerfanista:I had no idea the AIs avoided the oracle if I put a few hammers into it! Is that just for non-IND, non-marble leaders or do they all do it?

I first ran across this on some deity threads - it seems pretty reliable. AFAIK, you have to be the first one to start the wonder, but it seems pretty reliable. In this game, I put 1 turn into it and then left it for later while I built other stuff (it's a pretty long path to writing + monarchy). EDIT: I don't think it matters if the AIs have the resource or are IND - they'll just built something else instead.

 

[Archon_Wing]

@dalamb

Spoiler :

About barbs, I had one barb city spawn close to my capital near the SW cow. They just offered more cities to be conquered.

Actually I guess there were quite a few barbs, but it wasn't a problem with slavery and copper.

 

[Um the Muse]

Hmm. I still haven't got any comments on my situation (post 50). I figured it just got buried, so I hope nobody will mind the bump.

@ Larwin: I hope you don't feel that I or anybody else was putting you down. You're right--this is a learning experience, for all of us. In fact, looking at your situation helped me understand a few things, too. My comments about exploration put my gut feelings into perspective clearly enough that I could express myself. Thanks, buddy!

 

[Larwin]

Spoiler :

View attachment AutoSave_BC-0375.CivBeyondSwordSave
Is this game still winnable? I got some tech trades and a few units built. I was thinking of going one more city NE of where my citys are then fill in my peninsula with the rest my cities. Then start planning attacks after I built a few units in every city.

 

[Capellan]

@Um the Muse
I recommend more detail in the post in order to encourage feedback - not everyone checks save files.

Spoiler :

You need more workers! You're working quite a few unimproved tiles. 4 workers for 5 cities is not enough, and looks like you plan to settle another soon. Cancel the settler building in York and get another worker there. You need at least 8, as soon as possible; more if you keep settling.

Speaking of settling, why are you settling to the west when the AIs are all to the east and there is still land to the east to be grabbed?

Tech situation seems OK. Militarily you are weak, but that shouldn't be a big issue while you have no land borders with anyone.

So:
1. build workers
2. build some spawnbusters and send them east to protect city spots
3. get settlers out to those sites to the east
4. tech currency after CoL to support your growth
5. backfill the western cities once you reach AI borders in the east

 

[Larwin]

Hmm. I still haven't got any comments on my situation (post 50). I figured it just got buried, so I hope nobody will mind the bump.

@ Larwin: I hope you don't feel that I or anybody else was putting you down. You're right--this is a learning experience, for all of us. In fact, looking at your situation helped me understand a few things, too. My comments about exploration put my gut feelings into perspective clearly enough that I could express myself. Thanks, buddy!

I think I may burn out on Civ 4 if I try anything harder than Noble. Already feeling that way. You personally havent offended me I was in another thread and feel I was just not at ease stating my feelings to someone I just want to learn to do better and win a few games and not feel I'm making too many mistakes I know I do. I guess maybe I should try to take a few breaks from playing civ. I'm kinda a video game junkie and stay up odd hours trying to master games. for civ I rather have a game thats a little challenging than to stay on chieftan. I know experts that play monarch or diety may not understand this but on older versions of civ I ussually only played up to warlord. I figured you really got to have a lot of patience to beat the higher levels. I can get used to playing at Noble but from my gaming experience I think I wouldnt want to proceed much past prince if I even play prince.