1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Nobles' Club LXXIX: Kublai Khan of Mongolia

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by dalamb, Aug 6, 2011.

  1. dalamb

    dalamb Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    3,160
    Location:
    Kingston, Ontario
    The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

    Our next leader is Kublai Khan of Mongolia, whom we last played in NC III; we last played Mongolia under Ghengis in NC XXXVIII. The Mongolians start with The Wheel and Hunting.
    • Traits: Kublai Khan is Aggressive and Creative. AGG means faster barracks and drydocks, and Combat I for melee and gunpowder units; unfortunately it doesn't syergize with the mounted Unique Unit. CRE means +2:culture: per city, which means you can get the critical first border pop quickly without investing :hammers: in cultural buildings; this is especially helpful in newly-conquered cities. It also means faster libraries, which means you can start running science specialists sooner to generate an early Great Scientist for an academy.
    • His UB: The Ger is a stable that gives 4XP to mounted units instead of 2. A (cheap) barracks and Ger give you two promotions immediately and put you 3 XP from a 3rd promotion -- or 1, if you run Vassalage or Theocracy.
    • His UU: The Kheshik is a horse archer with a first strike that ignores terrain movement costs. Unlike HAs, it lacks immunity to first strikes, but its own first strike cancels that of an unpromoted archer, so early on that's a wash. Watch out for drill-promoted archers, against which Kheshiks are more vulnerable than regular horse archers.
    And the start:

    Spoiler map details :
    Rainforest, Cylindrical wrap. There is a lot of jungle on this kind of map, making Kheshiks even more useful. Each civ seems to start in a "clearing" with decent nearby resources. There is more land than on an average map; I added 2 AIs to compensate.
    Spoiler map edits :
    Verified that the RNG put horses (for the UU) within the range of the first three cities. Extended our river to connect with another nearby river, and with the rice visible in the staring screenshot. Added a 2nd hill in our BFC -- though the capital is still :hammers:-poor.
    Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:
    The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 79 Kublai Noble" (or Monarch, etc., for higher levels)You can play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.
    Spoiler what's up with specific difficulties :
    In each scenario file you can select your level of difficulty, but that doesn't give the AI the right bonus techs by itself. Use the Noble save for all levels at and below Noble. The Monarch save gives all the AI Archery. Emperor adds Hunting; Immortal adds Agriculture; Deity adds The Wheel.

    For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in Worldbuilder as follows:
    Spoiler how to add techs to the barbarians :

    1. Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
    2. Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the worldbuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
    3. By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labeled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
    4. Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
    5. Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
    6. Exit the worldbuilder.
    7. Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.
    Spoiler huts and events :
    Note: The standard saves have no huts and have events turned off. If you want tribal villages and random events, choose the saves with "Huts" in their names. If you want huts but no events, select the Huts saves and use Custom Scenario to turn on the option that suppresses events.
    As with Ghengis, Noble-level players might want to try out TMIT's horse archer rush strategy, summarized here from a thread on traits for rushing.
    Spoiler :
    Get Horseback Riding as soon as possible; it's expensive but essential. Backfill Archery while building a Stable/Ger. Build Kheshiks -- lots and lots of Kheshiks. You won't need Axemen or Swordsmen; maybe some Archers for defending conquered cities. There aren't likely to be enough AI Spearmen to be a serious deterrent.

    Your Kheshiks will get two promotions. Against flatland cities, Combat II horse archers can win with about 70% odds. Against more strongly-defended cities, use Flanking II, which gives them a 50% withdrawal chance (if they still have movement after attacking); finish the damaged defenders off with Combat II Kheshiks.

    One suggested ratio is about 70% Combat II and most of the rest Flanking II. One Kheshik per stack should take Flanking I/Sentry for the extra tile of visibility, so you can see early on whether city defenders are too strong for you, and avoid counterattacks outside cities. One per stack should take Combat I/Medic I. It is important to bypass well-defended cities so you don't get bogged down with healing and waiting for replacements; you can switch to pillaging critical resources, which can force the AI to defend on flatlands where they're more vulnerable.

    In rushing a whole continent, make sure to pause and heal when you finish off one civilization, then keep the momentum going and attack the next. Financially, conquest can be economically self-sustaining. You can also damage the AI tech pace so that nobody gets Feudalism (and thus longbows) for a long time.

    This works well (for TheMeInTeam, at least) at all levels up to Immortal; Deity AIs can block it.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. dalamb

    dalamb Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    3,160
    Location:
    Kingston, Ontario
  3. skymastergamerp

    skymastergamerp Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Portugal
    Defenatly will try this one since I am doing a cultural game as Gandhi at the same time will do a more milatry game here. Looking at the staring area it appears we start near jungle since that start was probably clered jungle. 1 S seems like the way to go here with a Warrior as first build while reasrching Agri - AH - HBR
     
  4. strijder20

    strijder20 Wallowing in irony

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    Messages:
    5,047
    Location:
    In Dystopia
    Looks fun, going to do it now. I need to do something to compensate for the fact I just HA-rushed the Mongols in my Bismark Monarch game :p
    On Noble. I usually play Prince-Monarch, but I think a total HA rush would be easier for me on Noble.
     
  5. skymastergamerp

    skymastergamerp Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Portugal
    Spoiler alert only watch if you have played the first turn

    Spoiler :
    Dalamb have you regenerated or what this start is fantastic in terms of commerce I mean 2 Bananas 2 Spices and 2 Corns defenatly cootager everythnig and mine those hills also Calender is top priority might I guess I am just posting this image and say wow.

    That really makes 1S the way to go


    Will post the rest latter this is going to be fun
     
  6. skymastergamerp

    skymastergamerp Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Portugal
    Also what do you think is best here Worker First or Warrior First?
     
  7. michmbk

    michmbk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    1,415
    Location:
    D.C. Area
    In spoiler so as not to influence anyone's settling decisions...

    Spoiler :
    You have two corn and rice - there is no decision. Worker while teching AG-AH.

    It's Kublai, so if you find horses, the next thought is how to get keshiks up and running as fast as possible.
     
  8. skymastergamerp

    skymastergamerp Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Portugal
    Spoiler :
    Did you settle 1S or in place I have already settled and I am about turn 10 already
     
  9. vranasm

    vranasm Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2002
    Messages:
    6,437
    Location:
    Czech Rep.
    looking at the starting screen strongly thinking about settling 1S with worker first...

    with the amount of chopped riverside another thing that comes to mind is when to go for ah->writing and tw->pottery... BW surely doesn't look hot here... at least until I have military tech.

    @mich which 2nd corn you have in mind? the bananas?
    I actually think those bananas and spice could be cottaged (or better said should be)
     
  10. Amao

    Amao Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 11, 2002
    Messages:
    735
    Location:
    Shanghai
    what about a pure keshiks rushing game? ;)
     
  11. skymastergamerp

    skymastergamerp Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Portugal
    2040 BC

    Spoiler :
    So I have started stelled 1 S like my first spoiler post pointed out decidie to begin with Worker in the capital (though I am not sure if a Warrior wouldn´t have been a better choice will have to wait to find out)First resarch Agriculture so I could build Farms on the Corn and Rice.

    Two turns in and I already know where my second city will be there near the Marble it will grant me 2 additional Bananas a Pig and Rice (GP Farm me thinks?)

    Now that I look at this upon border pop a rice resource is revealed oh well I think no one would have guessed settling 1 SE kudos for those who did but I am happy by my choice.
    After Agriculture decidied to go AH because like dalamb pointed out this leader is ideal for a HA rush so I need to find Horses ASAP and settle it there probably as my second city.

    Buddhism FIADL in 3640 BC probably a Spiritual CIV didn't check who dalemb choose as openents.
    Met Zara next turn he is Creative and Organized. His UB the Stele is a Monument Repleacement while his UU is the Oromo Warrior a Musketeer repleacement. Since he appears to be close I might choose him as my HA rush target so I decid to send my Scout SE after meeting him.

    The Hut near the capital gave me a Map which revealed some territory to the NorthEast and more Jungle and Calender resources behind what appears to be a Lare Peak range and also some Pigs near a fresh watter lake.
    Finish the Worker in 3400BC and decid to begin building some warriors as to fogbust the map and find other civs and also to serve as early city defenders.

    The Worker will start by improving the Corn and follow that with another farm on the rice.
    Finish researching AH and starting on HBR already since I do want to start cranking HA ASAP and look where what I find near my city 2 placement HORSES! I decide to adjust my city site to include both Horses and Marble so it will now go here.

    Hinduism FIADL in 3240 BC.
    I also paln on two more city sites City 3 will have some overlap with the capital but will alow me to work the Pigs Banana and Rice that I missed with my capital. While city 4 has two more bananas and a Pig with lots of riverside grasslands. Also found out that Zara is close to my south so I am defenatly gonna rush him.

    Found Gligamesh's Scout in 2680 BC. HUM Creative and Protective and especially with the Vulture as UU. Depending on how far way he is he might be second at which time I will probably have Cats and Axes but if I can find an even easier target I will wait until his Vultures are obsoleted.

    Next turn I find Sitting Bull and he has founded a religion Hinduism. Great he will probably be my second target. However he is protective and his Dog Soldiers and Archers can be annoying but Keshiks will still probably defeat him.
    Also another possible city placement north of Aksum and south of Karakorum taht can get Pig Silk and Stone (Probably Zara will found a city there but I don't know)
    Finish my first settler which will go to the horses site and decide to conclude my early warrior before building another worker when Karakorum gets to size 4

    Also decide on another city site city 6 getting another Banana two pigs and rice as well as Fresh water lake which will probably be a GP Farm.
    On 2440 BC I get the first tech towards unlocking my UU and a tech that also unlocks my UB HBR. I will go next for Archery to get Keshiks of course but also Archers so I can defend my cities.

    Found Beshbalik in 2360 BC though I miss some Pigs and Bananas I really wanted the Marble and horses (on retrospect I could have settled 1 W and I would have got the Pigs ups.)
    Get Archery in 2240 BC and found Mehmed II of the Ottomans. Expansive and Organized I haven't played much against him so I don't know how good he is and how he behaves so if you could tell me.

    I decide to beeline IW through Mining - BW - IW though in the middle I decide to put Pottery since cottages will be useful in the capital.
    Finish my second worker next turn and start by building a Barracks in my capital until I hook up the Horses I can start churning out Keshiks in a couple of turns. Meanwhile the worker will road and mine the hills.

    I find Sitting Bull in 2160 BC so he his to my north hum defnatly my next target after Zara.

    Flooplains to my west that means Mehmed may be west of the Desert which has that FP'S not sure if I can beat him to those though.

    Finish hooking up the horses in 2040 BC and I decide to stop here for now. Beshbalik is almost finished with there Barracks upon which it will start building Keshiks. Meanwhile the Capital will churn out workers and Settlers so I can setlle the lands nearby. Overall advice and comments would be appreaciated as well as critics on what I can do better. Btw for those who want ot check the savefile will be below.
    Also would love some opnion on where I could put my cities.
    My Empire in 2040 BC

    The Domestic Advisor

    Diplomacy
    Everyone is cautious with me while Sitting Bull dislikes both Gligamesh and Mehmed in fact Sitting Bull is Gligamesh's worst enemy. Zara is cautious with everyone but Sitting Bull is Pleased with him while Gligamesh and Mehmed are pleased with each other. I will probably befriend Gligamesh and Mehmed in the beigining and try to take the other two out.

     

    Attached Files:

  12. michmbk

    michmbk Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2008
    Messages:
    1,415
    Location:
    D.C. Area
    Oops - I read his words, not looking at his image. even with 1 corn and rice, my advice still holds, but it's not quite as nice with just the one corn.. How quickly can we get calendar? Quite the GP farm this could be...
     
  13. skymastergamerp

    skymastergamerp Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Portugal
    That is probably the starategy I will be going to in my gameplay which is already up to 2040 BC
     
  14. skymastergamerp

    skymastergamerp Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Portugal
    Ups sorry about that mispelled it in my first spoiler comment it is indeed 1 corn only. My bad:lol:
     
  15. vranasm

    vranasm Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2002
    Messages:
    6,437
    Location:
    Czech Rep.
    Emperor/normal to 1 AD

    start agri->pottery!->then I forgot :-D
    cottaged some of those bananas

    sitting at 10 cities a little bit far away from currency, but really not my fault! :)
    if I finish the game it will be slow for sure... I am already a lot behind the schedule


    Spoiler :


    I quickly looked around for horses, realized I have none, but have copper in good spot.

    Expanded east along the river, west along the river, then south to the stone, where I realized Zara forgot to expand.
    at 850 BC I had mixture of axes and swords and went for the kill

    Then somewhat peaceful expansion etc.

    Counted up to now over 45 cities...and i surely can place at least 3-4 good around my borders once i get out of crash...

    some screens
    Spoiler :








     
  16. vranasm

    vranasm Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2002
    Messages:
    6,437
    Location:
    Czech Rep.
    placing GP farm somewhere shouldn't be problem... rainforest is like food holidays.
     
  17. skymastergamerp

    skymastergamerp Chieftain

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    57
    Location:
    Portugal
    750 BC - 1 CIV Down

    Spoiler :
    Came back for some more gameplay and imediatly one turn latter I find Hannibal in 2000 BC. Is it normal this many number of civs in Rainforest on the same landmass?

    And next turn I find another civ Hammurabi. Yikes 7 civs can I rush them all in time? I don't know?

    Forget about what I said earlier Rainforest is kinda of like Highlands except it has a lot of jungle instead of hills right?

    Met Pacal very lately considering he is close to the east probably some other players will find him earlier. He also founded Buddhism so a nice target for early as well

    Discover BW in 1640 BC and look what I found in the third ring of the capital Cooper. I readjust city 6 so as to get the Copper. There is also one near Pacal and another source near Zara. Decide not to revolt to Slavery yet since I feel I don't need it yet while continuing towards IW.

    Settle Turfan in 1600 BC where city 4 placement was starting with an Archer since there was nothing better to build there.

    Next turn I met the Last civ in the game my fellow countyman Joao II. Not sure where he is yet though? He is pleased to Zara so I won't be befriending him for sure.

    Finish the Ger in Keshbalik which for the next couple of turns will be producing nothing but Keshiks the capital will join as soon as I get some Archers and another worker out.

    Research IW in 1080 BC and there is Iron near Turfan very nice in plains in fact at this time I revolt to Slavery probably should have done it early oh well.

    I decide to tech Writing next in prospect of getting to Alphabet
    Imeaditely I decide to whip a ger in both my capital and latter I will also whip in Turfan also Judaism gets founded. Also have a peak at Aksum FP'S and two Gold mines a very nice capital overall that will soon be mine.

    Found Carthage which is to the NE of the starting position. Not sure If I will attack him before Pacal and Sitting Bull which will be next after Zara.
    Mehmed asks for OB on 875 BC since I haven't found him yet I accept.

    Joao also asks for it and I accept it as well.
    Gligamesh builds the Oracle in 900 BC which I don't mind since I am not planning to build any wonders at all.
    In 850 BC finish a quick barracks in Karkorum while I whip the Ger in Turfan. I decide I will need Granarys in my two cities sicne of the unhelathiness between the military buildup.
    Get Writing in 825 BC decide to go for Alphabet to backfill up some techs

    In 775 BC I say to Zara that I would like to get his head in a pull having refused Alphabet from him earlier in a trade with HBR(though I could have probably accepted another mistake I made)

    In 750 BC it is all she Wrote for Zara only an Archer and a Warrior defending his city pretty pathetic and I capture Aksum. I decide to stop here for further advice.
    Here is my territory I am thinking I will attack Pacal next so as to get that Buddhist Holy City.

    Domestic Advisor
    I am thinking of start throwing the occasional Axeman here and there since Pacal does have Holkans while Sitting Bull has Dog Soldiers or should I continue all out Keshiks?

    Here is the Tech Screen I should probably trade Alphabet for HBR with Mehmed for relations and also because it would allow me to see how the Tech situation is. He is also somewhat far away haven't found him yet so befriending him is defenatly an option right now.

    Diplo Screen
    Sitting Bull and Hammurabi are annoyed with Pacal while Hannibal and Gligamesh are Pleased with him

    Sitting Bull on the other hand has Pacal Gligamesh and Mehmed annoyed with him so I am defenatly not sure which of the two will target first. Right now I am more inclined towards Sitting Bull.


    Save file below and advice would be welcomed
     

    Attached Files:

  18. dalamb

    dalamb Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    Messages:
    3,160
    Location:
    Kingston, Ontario
    @skymastergamerp:
    Spoiler :
    This was the first map after I figured out how many AIs I needed to add. This being the first Rainforest map I've ever tried, I have no idea how atypical it might be. Lots of food but not a heck of a lot of production; the low production might slow down your early game a lot. You don't really want your capital to be the GP farm, so I suppose you need to move the capital; boosted workshops and watermills come a little late in the game.

    Once more of the map is revealed I hope a more experienced player can comment on whether this capital is really as good as it seems.
     
  19. shoshonte

    shoshonte Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2011
    Messages:
    45
    Spoiler :
    Well I played the first couple turns of this game. Settled 1s of the starting location. Could have made a better capital. Nice amount of food for commerce city or even a GP farm. Production is a bit weak but still usable. So I started out with a worker while my scout decided to start exploring NW then gradually explored full circle around the city looking for good spots. SW seems like a good spot for city number 2 near the marble. After looking around for a while I couldn't find any horses which seems like I must take it from either Zara or SB. Teched- Agriculture->Pottery ->Animal Husbandry-> Bronze Working. Copper within the capitol limits :ar15: I'll try to be more detailed in my next update.
     
  20. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2005
    Messages:
    4,532
    Gender:
    Male
    Very tiring map; I absolutely loathe all that micro. :lol: Also reading this thread makes me realize I already botched turn 1. ;)
    Prince/Normal/No gambling
    1820 diplo
    Spoiler :

    I hate chopping away all that jungle, I so wish workers would automatically chop away jungle. Also, calendar resources are not what I like to see in my capital, but all the riverside grassland is. I settle on the banana because it gives my capital that rice. Banana's also such a mediocre resource; you need calendar for something that gives the equivalent of a good rice tile, so I figure by gaining a wet rice and getting a faster worker would be better.

    Oh wait... 1s gets more. Oops.

    Also away with that cliff as well. I want pottery because of the nice cottage potential land and probaly would follow up with animal husbandry later on for my city if needed+ horse rush.



    Then before my worker can come out, this crap happens... OMFG BS. Why does the RNG screw me over at every opportunity?



    Anyhow, that already made me not want to play, but at least we have copper, so I'm safe from barbs or maybe rush some fool. I'm lazy and can't find anybody. So meh. I settle to the east along the river so I don't have to build a route.

    Went quick Iron working since nothing was improvable outside the capital without it. Sadly horses were too far away, so w/e.

    The tech, as expected was horrifically slow. The lack of happiness resources and overabundance of food was very annoying, but at least I can run quite a few specialists.



    The Oracle was still available around 300 bc?? With my new source of marble, I snagged it and got metal casting for the forges. Along with currency coming in soon, building wealth was a boon.


    Anyhow, big religous group hug involving everyone but Zara, but he gets capped. I just ignore everyone and tech slowly to lib and even more slowly build oxford. It's 1400 AD, and I still haven't cleared out some random jungle.

    But at least I have a tech lead. Everyone seems to like me enough, and only Zara doesn't have the AP religion. But hey, he's my neighbor so gifting a trojan horse city is easy. It's kinda cramped at this point, but there's this tiny little spot in the far south his culture doesn't cover. Oh wait... Sitting Bull is a jerk still, so I figure I'll just grow more people. Nobody else has Bio or even scimeth, so I ramped up some culture slider and headed for ecology to get environmentalism.

    Also bulbed some of electricity and built Broadway. Hell, I might as well gift him everything to ecology. :p

    Of course he's worthless as ever, but I don't need him since I have more votes than Gil thanks to my population boom, and Hammy built the AP. Gil switches to Taoism for no reason and random people keep jumping to free religion. I go back to HR -_- and after 100 years of so of idiots jumping back and forth between civics and bribing away my tech lead they finally settle down and let me win. I really should have just AP cheesed earlier...







    Gameplay time of 1:40. :lol: so you must be imagining how little I actually did.
     

    Attached Files:

Share This Page