Nobles Club X - Zara Yaqob!

[Bleys]

Heres the thing schwartz, at Noble, this map isnt all that hard. It gets harder for the human as you scale the difficulty, but so far, everyone who has mentioned it as being harder is playing their "working on beating" level. This is a HARD map if your trying to go up a difficulty, but its not so hard if you are playing your actual level, IMHO.

I mean, if we want easy, we can just throw HC out there every week, put stone and rivered gems in the BFC, and all the "advanced" players can beat the crap out of it on Emperor, while the Noble and Prince player have it won by turn 50. Thats not teaching anyone anything though.

I think a big problem with folks moving up in difficulties is that they dont have as much fun playing from behind. You cant always be the tech + power leader by 1 AD, you cant always win the Lib race, you cant always get away with doing exactly what you want to do every turn of every game, nothing gets learned that way except how to beat the snot out of the AIs by playing below your skill level. I cringe every time I see a Noble or Prince player execute a Warrior rush. Thats a clear indication that you need to move up, and try Axe rushes instead, because you "solved" a big part of that level.

This map is hard, but not impossible. Its very beatable, there is a LOT of land to be settled between the 2 AIs we share the landmass with, and with some basic diplomacy (like befriending the one its easier to keep happy and being ready to pound the one thats notorious for his insanity) you can lay a pile of cities out and just grind into the lead eventually (perhaps Lib on Monarch, Rifling on Emp, for example). But not everyone has fun grinding like that, they want fast-growing cities, easy access to resources and such, etc etc. As I said, if I want to play a game like that, I can regen HC starts til I get what I want and pound the AIs out of the gate.

 

[schwartz]

@Bleys:
I see where you're coming from, no doubt.
As it is, I'm playing in my comfort zone on emperor, but I feel a bit slow on this particular map.
However, playing at Noble on this map, or any other, isn't easy for everyone so all I was saying is that we should just keep that in mind, in the future

@Groogaroo:

Spoiler :

Get over to Mansa's former capital ASAP because the barbs will leave it empty. (Uprising barbs are programmed as city attackers only, IIRC.)

edit for untagged spoiler..

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Deity/quick - up to 25 AD

Spoiler :

Just kidding. I'm still playing emperor/epic! This does end 25 AD though.

Settled in place. We have a non-forest tile in the BFC so maybe copper or iron or something stupid and late lie uranium. Teching fish while building a warrior to scout, starting scout hugs coast to southeast.

3700 met MM
3300 work boat complete, going worker as BW is 4 turns off, I can chop future WB's out. We're on a peninsula and while MM is obviously not close (I found him already) there's still much exploring to do. I like to warmonger and it gets a lot easier if you expand well - and zara does this easily. Going for speed.
3200 Revolt to slavery. We have bronze! Teching the wheel next and then probably sailing.
3100 Montezuma, huh. He's buddhist. I want sailing ASAP to get his religion to me.
3000 Worker is whipped out. Going work boats then an axe or two then going to settle aggressively.
2825 MM founds and converts hinduism. Very very nice. I can now grab a religion and pick my ally.
2700 Archery from a hut - I got AG earlier too
2525 I have sailing - going for AH next as I see a gold/cow city that will hamper MM's expansion towards me.
2450 Finally found Monty's capitol, he's a long way off.
2225 Have AH - going for pottery/writing, then monarchy
1100 GLH goes :/. I wasn't even trying for it yet...!
800 Met Freddy and he has alphabet. He's NOT on this home continent - I've long since explored it all unless he's west of Monty. Must be in sailing reach.
725 I revolt to HR, going for currency
600 Monty asks that I cancel deals with MM ----> I accept
550 Monty asks for gold...I bend over again.
455 Buddhism spreads to me -----> I obviously take it.
275 Met Joao, and he didn't have monarchy so i traded it to him for IW.
155 Currency to Joao for alphabet, monarchy to monty for poly and 100 gold.
125 My 5th city picks up wheat/wine/copper/2 jumbos, and does much to wall Monty off from expanding east.
35 BC MM no longer shows as anyone's worst enemy - trade currency/monarchy to him for MC, masonry, 30 gold. I also complete CoL - an important tech for sure as I am pretty scattered with cities in blocking attempts.
5 BC Ah, FREDDY is now monty's worst enemy. Excellent that he switched worst enemies, allowing me to tech whore without penalty.
25 AD - I use my axes to take a barb city.

Thoughts:

I've read some comments that this is a hard map, but I can't agree with that. The terrain makes it easy to block MM away, and we get a 3 seafood start with multiple gold resources in reach along with jumbos - this means early and COMMERCE, commerce that can power REX. If you can manage diplomacy, there is a LOT of land you can expand into peacefully. Also, since MM isn't very aggressive just siding with monty and keeping an ok stack should be enough to survive.

And finally, some pictures of my empire at 25 AD:











I feel like I'm in excellent shape on this map - and again with no wonders at all. I have monarchy/currency/CoL before 1 AD and now have 6 cities that block off room for 12+ cities easily. I'm #1 power and the only aggressive neighbor near me hates someone else who is weaker.

I'd imagine once those courthouses finish I can finish expanding into most of the rest of the continent - there's some silver down there to take advantage of as well as some coastal seafood on the east etc. Eventually MM will get sailing and take that stuff so I want to beat him there. Just need enough axes/swords to keep people off of me, but it looks like that won't be too hard.

Edit: I respectfully disagree about the difficulty of the map. I don't think it's hard, although it obviously plays different from a lot of starts. Nonetheless, I had a harder time on earlier NC maps to this point, so I don't think it's out of the ordinary in terms of difficulty - it's a good map to learn from IMO.

 

[Bleys]

Good points about the map TMIT. I think, perhaps, "hard" is the wrong term. I think the problem with this map is that it offers too MANY strategic choices.

Lets face it, many maps in these types of games end up with 5 or 6 players putting down cities on identical tiles, because they are "no brainers". This map, however, offers a multitude of solid, playable choices, and people dont LIKE that. They WANT simplicity and a bunch of those "no brainer tiles". Heh, just looking over your city placements, we both had the same exact plans in mind, but we have our cities 1 or 2 off, in fact, I dont think we have a single city in the EXACT same spot, and that speaks volumes about the map, since I consider both of us "reasonably strong" players.

My problem with my Emp try was speed. I REXed too fast, and even though I got the GLH, half my cities had no coastal routes! Took forever to get them connected (you actually have to see the route along the coast to use it, fog or closed bordered AIs cut you off). My economy fell apart, and while I might have pulled it off, I decided I didnt want to grind it out, went to my standard Monarch, and played the exact same game, basically, REXed just as fast, maybe I got a Work Boat exposing coast a bit sooner, but thats about it. And it was enough to put me into control.

So yes, I agree the map isnt "difficult" hard, its "strategic" hard, because there are very few no-brainer moves, mate, very very few.

 

[Bandobras Took]

After looking at some other games, I may revise my opinion about the map.

Spoiler :

I haven't done too much to the North, I've been worried about making sure Montezuma doesn't grab too much land to the south. That double Gold site is rather nice. It still doesn't change for me that creative isn't quite the tool I would want for this map, but Organized is going to be good.

 

[KaytieKat]

Hi

Just responding to some of the things mentioned here. I made a couple of direct refernces to current game. I DONT THINK they give away anything TOO revealing about game to ruin play for someone who hasnt started game yet but just in case I put it in spoilers.

Spoiler :

Hmmm maybe the name of this series should be changed to Monarch Club/University or something. I think the focus has definitely changed from what it started out.

I think I am the only one posting on regular basis who actually is a noble level player. I am not saying I am a great noble player. It just difficult I play on. Some games I win easy peasy some games I get crushed so bad its silly and most games somewhere in between so I think it kinda puts me in as so so noble player.

I still have TONS of weaknesses but I can figure some things out. Like in my original post I stated how once I had land mass explored how this game was going to be at BEST a long slow grind for my skill level.

And that major factor for it would be because the map itself either by design or by accident was going to be an obstacle the player would have to overcome and deal with. Now when just the design of the map or the starting location is the challenge itself is whole different style of game with their own separate issues. And challenges in ADDITION to those which happen in more average type of game. Which is why series like LHC or just threads of the type “wow look at this crazy start--here is a save for anyone who wants a crack at it” get started.

Or in this case like rolo mentioned this start requires more of utilizing the “hidden” strengths of zara rather than the more obvious ones. Now for people like Rolo and Bleys and TMiT who are waaaaaaay beyond noble level difficulty I can see how this would be an interesting and added challenge to spice up their monarch/emperor level games. For someone like me, a so so noble level player who hasn’t even mastered the OBVIOUS strengths of Zara yet. It just means I am in for LOTS of banging my head on computer desk in frustration.

But since average regular player in this series are now more monarch level than noble level challenges like these are what the majority wiahes now to keep it interesting for them . And if so then fine just make sure to note that series is no longer about learning how to deal with things that trouble noble level players and more geared now for monarch level players.

Hopefully some noble level players can benefit from it still. But honestly. When someone of my skill level mentions how difficult the map is seeing players who are like 3 levels above me dismissing my comments with things that amount to “nah its easy if you play it right” or “well it was kinda hard on emperor but on monarch I had no problem so anyone on noble who has trouble is just a player who needs resources on every other square and should just go play HC and restart map until they get gold and gems in their bfc” or that they are just whining for “no brainer” games., doesn’t make it very encouraging for lower level players who would like to participate.

I mean I think there is a difference between saying that --considering that focus of series when first started by Knick was meant for people still trying to handle the more standard and common challenges in game that can trouble a noble level skilled player -- maybe the maps shouldn’t be designed with unusual extra challenges thrown in such as above average difficulty maps, (or in case of degaule game where map was loaded with Fin leaders all with super start locations to pretty much almost guaranteeing being out teched like crazy) and asking for every map to have 3 gold hills on rivers and 3 food sources in starting bfc.

But if the focus has changed that’s fine. I mean I am not even sure the person who first came up with idea is still around and it does seem like most people playing are way beyond noble now so it is understandable that things that would be challenging to a noble level player would be boring fro them and therefore need extra difficulties to keep their interest. I just think that maybe it should be mentioned that Noble’s Club really isn’t intended for noble level skill players anymore.

Kaytie

 

[Bandobras Took]

KaytieKat makes an excellent point. Noble difficulty puts the AI on equal terms as far as Happy/Health Caps, research rate, etc.

But a Noble player doesn't necessarily have an understanding of every facet of the game required to dominate -- otherwise, they'd likely move up.

The upshot of this is that the BtS AI (whatever one may say about its military strategy, it has been programmed to utilize all game mechanics, if not optimally, at least to good effect and with a thorough mathematical grounding that I couldn't keep track of if I tried) can often zoom ahead of a Noble player for no readily discernible reason even on a map that is, to an experienced player, a good start or a balanced start.

I've taken a look at my game again, and I'm afraid this is a hideous map for a Noble player trying to learn what Creative is good for. It's great for learning more about Organized -- if you happen to think about building cities touching a coast and having an freshwater lake in their Big Fat Cross. Other than that, your going to be looking at poor teching because you're not going to be finding the food to work cottages, water, or gold mines.

Spoiler :

If you scouted to the south and found Montezuma underneath large tracts of forest, you'll likely do what any Noble player without Protective does -- panic. You'll be sending your cities south to try and make sure he doesn't get too much land, and if your scout gets eaten by a bear, you won't even see the other genuinely useful city spot near Mansa. Creative will expand your city borders in a hurry, but there's just not much to grab -- half of the stuff near your starting position is either plains hills or tundra without the food to really work them. It took me a long while to realize that the Plains Gold southeast of the start actually had two farmable Grasslands, and I nearly made drastic mistakes with my other cities before thinking of using the Lighthouses to improve the inland lakes. With such vast tracts of tundra and forest to the North, you're not going to think of settling there unless by chance you sent your scout that way at the start -- all these things add up to something a Noble player is going to find daunting if not impossible. A Noble player with Zara Yaqob is probably hoping that they can grab some good city sites to get a strong economy with. Those sites are not there on this map. There are some reasonable ones with a little unorthodox thinking, but that's precisely the thing that Noble level players aren't usually going to be working with.

As a Noble player, I was still often clueless as to why I would win some games and lose others. Unorthodox thinking presupposes this foundation.

A warning that a particular map might be difficult and even some spoiler suggestions in the start (for example, the Lighthouse/Lake trick) for such a map might mitigate this and be more conducive to helping Noble players learn the ins and outs of the game.

@KaytieKat:
Incidentally, and completely off-topic, that's a cool name. When did you first start using it?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I feel this map plays to Zara's traits pretty well actually (or rather, Zara is a monster but that's besides the point).

Creative is an excellent walling-off trait and to that effect it has a lot of value on this map (on top of the usual cheap libraries). In fact in this map in particular I really liked having it. Organized is of course a 100% usage trait - its benefits are quite passive as you use courthouses in most cities regardless and civic upkeep reductions are again not something one needs to plan for (maybe feel less damage from high upkeep civics, if that's worthy of planning). In other words, Zara has two average-to-good traits that are generally useful on all maps in my opinion. Not much special effort needed to make use of them.

The problem with this map is that it looks different from other maps. It definitely isn't harder than other maps per se', but its differences make optimal play different - less whipping for me. It may not be something good for noble players, but it's hard to judge beforehand even for skilled map makers like Bleys/Rolo.

Why?

There's so much chance that goes into it. In one of the LHC games Rolo commented that he didn't think an AI would do ANYTHING given its start. That same AI wound up being a consistent problem in many games - pushing for domination, winning backdoor diplomacy via forcing tons of capitulations, or straight-up invading the player. I'd say such performance is a bit more than nothing . Or, take this map for example. My opening went quite well, but one of the reasons is that I DIDNT LOSE SCOUTING UNITS TO ANIMALS. I didn't lose the opening scout until a barb warrior sniped it around 1000 BC. I never lost the first warrior I made - it's garrisoned in one of my cities for HR . Why does this matter? Well, it let me see the ENTIRE CONTINENT, including all relevant AI start locations, before they'd settled their second city. Indeed, a large portion of my strategy came as a result of seeing this - but what if I'd lost one of those units, and failed to even meet one of the AIs as a result before settling a 2nd or 3rd city (quite plausible)? I'd look a LOT weaker, in fact depending on some other draws I could even wind up in a losing positions.

Look how religions shook out too. What if they hadn't? Again, entirely different game depending on who founds what.

I do think that for NC, the map makers should try to make games suitable for noble-level players (I play these games often to relax a bit or for testing things sometimes, and lighter difficulty helps there). However, I will comment that thinking that you have such a map vs actually having one are two different things. I know from experience things I thought would be very easy starts turned out quite hard, and vice versa.

Even pre-conceived thoughts about the map can vary outcomes - seeing comments on the difficulty of this map, I brought my "A" game to it, which I might not have to such an extent otherwise.

Overall I think Bleys/Rolo have done pretty well with this series but going forward I think the focus should still be winnable/relatively obvious decision trees for noble players. I didn't think this map was that bad after playing that stupid map nintendotogepi put out though . Gotta love tectonics high sea level islands maps.

Edit: Hints for players on maps like this could potentially be very helpful. I have a very high failure tolerance when having set a goal to improve, but even for me it would have been very nice early on in this series ---- if the decision isn't overtly obvious but it's an optimal play, maybe a spoilered suggestions tab would be worthwhile. Of course, this is just a suggestion and it may put unnecessary strain on those kind enough to run the series, but nevertheless it would be nice for players new to maps like this.

Note: I didn't actually make a point of settling coastal tiles to lighthouse freshwater lakes . Not once in that turnset did I consider doing that - I definitely just settled the resources best I could...shows I have a ways to go even if I managed to look good occasionally .

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Emperor/Epic (my actual game settings )

Lots of talking about this map, time to play it! This segment goes to 1500AD, and luck allows me to do some outlandish things. I don't want to spoil it, but it's hard to get luckier than I did early on in this segment. I could in theory still lose this game but I'd almost have to try to thanks to this kind of luck .

Spoiler :

130 alpha to monty for 110 gold and monotheism.
160 Sold CoL to MM for gold
175 MC to Joao for construction and 60 gold
235 I get CS, bureaucracy instantly. Paper/education next, no reason not to push for lib and trade for needed military techs ----> I'm in good military shape atm
340 CS to MM for theology and 170 gold.
400 Theology to Joao for calendar and 60 gold
475 AD monty had too much on his hands. I knew it wasnt me. Was it freddy or mm??? It was MM. He autorazes a city up there. Time to help I guess...MM has the hindu shrine!
685 Monty asks I once again cancel deals with MM. I agree - don't worry monty. I'm going to do something you will like even more shortly.
715 AP is built in buddhism, by Joao I believe
790 Dow MM ---> don't want Monty getting these cities. I want them.
805 Freddy is bribed into war against me. I chuck monty theology to DoW him, since he'd just made peace with MM.
960 Freddy takes 5 gold for peace. AP forced monty to stop war on him earlier.
990 Met asoka --- probably not isolated because he's teched well. Confucian.
1050 AP forces war on MM
1060 My forces capture Timbuktu - it has TWO SHRINES. Hindu and Jewish
1080 Asoka declares on me...?
1110 Joao is near the lib race with makes me just take it. Interesting tech choice though ----> I take...DIVINE RIGHT!!! Nobody has founded it yet, giving me an excellent shot at those wonders and with a lot of cities. 2 shrines and spiral sounds very enticing, like the kind of advantage that gets you infantry vs rifles later.
1140 The war isn't stopping me from plopping settlers down, I continue to settle in the SE of continent as well. Note that the very southern part of the continent is terrible (literally about 1/2 peaks) so I decide to leave that alone.
1170 I knock MM off the map. Guess what? This last city has the CHRISTIAN SHRINE. This feels dirty .
1190 AP votes to declare on Asoka . That's now 3 AI's at war with him too. I...negotiate peace . It's time for missionary spam, grabbing a barb city, and settling 2-3 more sites. I might get Univ of Sankore and will definitely get Spiral minaret, so missionary spam here will make me a very, very powerful force in the near future as cottages grow. I'll be able to run the slider ridiculously high.
1230 Although I AM already getting 311 BPT at a slight deficit .
1250 U of Sankore completed in capitol (I'm in bureaucracy and believe it or not I put Maoi there ). Not bad as I also have colossus now!
1320 Spiral Minaret is mine.
1325 Joao makes a colony - lincoln. I capture the barb city of Estruscan...Monty had a lone jag there - not gonna cut it against longbows monty.
1345 Switch to FM and FS
1350 False war with Asoka to please monty ----> nobody I care about likes asoka...!
1360 The new AP resident is me since I've been spreading the religion around .
1370 Great Prophet pops.... Well I did found islam...
1470 Sign defensive pact with both Joao and Monty - both are at friendly .
1490 GE pops. Good timing - I was thinking about SoL too...!
1495 Taj completes.
1500 State of the empire:

Dominating at the moment . I have FOUR shrines, 3 of which are quite lucrative. I'm spamming missionaries and making some military in 2 cities although the defensive pact with both monty and Joao along with control of the AP would make me a daunting target regardless. Not #1 in tech but in a position where I will be very soon at this rate. Missionary spam has caused me to neglect the final 2 cities I'll make on my own...well that and early war on MM.

At this time of the game it's time to pick a victory condition. I have a number open to me - space, cultural, UN diplo (vassalize a couple idiots and GG), and military. Culture is really interesting here - I don't have to get astronomy to obsolete steel, I am huge with strong defensive pacts, and I have 5 religions which I'm spamming regardless. Yes, culture would make sense.

Does anyone believe I'll actually go that route though?! I'm thinking I'll grab me some infantry/marines, and then do some mix of an across-the-ocean Asoka amphibious assault and betraying Montezuma. I probably don't have to betray him, but I think that would be cooler. Who knows though...maybe I'll just take a naval show on the road further to freddy or vicky since people don't really like them either. We'll see...that way would mean a lot less potential AP pain.

Goal ATM is conquest or domination, or if I get tired of that UN. Highlight reel:



Declaring on MM - he has longbows but no iron so no Xbows. Thankfully no copper either so no maces. If he had such annoyances Monty probably wouldn't have attacked him so early. Anyway it was a pretty easy war, longbows are nothing special when faced with lots of siege with few cities to produce such defenders.









Could be worse - the GA is really convenient as it will let me switch to emancipation/rep/merc easily and I'll GE the statue of liberty for some utter nonsense. 2 free rep specialists in every city, and both religious building wonders. Kesshi would be so proud .

 

[Siran]

I tend to agree with KaytieKat. I started playing this series, when it started out. Played the first few games as noble and I think I learned something doing that. I compared how I started to how everybody else started, I looked at the dot maps about city placing (and the explanations why which city was placed where and when).

After that, my mainboard died. I didn't have a computer on which to play civ for about three weeks and a lot of different things to do in the following weeks.

When I started playing again, I noticed that there are no more dotmaps about city placement. And not that much talk about which technology when. The things that helped me a lot in the first games a simply not there any more. Instead most people seem to be playing somewhere in the high leagues, totally unreachable for me.

I lost every single one of the last three games I tried. I even lost some on noble although I was up to prince in normal games. This series is not teaching me anything anymore, it's frustrating me. I still look at the new games that come out but I don't really play them any more.

And somehow I don't think that new noble players get that much out of these threads...

 

[schwartz]

Everything that Kaytie/Siran/BT said is what I was trying to say
This series has become something it wasn't intended to be. Understand, I'm happy that all of us are better than we were in the beginning, but the Noble's Club games should still be the place to go to learn the basics, like it was in the beginning. To win at Noble/Prince, and maybe even Monarch, all you need is the basics. There's no need for any deep understanding of the game, just a very solid grasp of the basics (planning cities properly, proper specialization, diplomacy, good tech trading, etc..) and that's what the NC games, IMO, were always about.
As to what Siran said, about the lack of explanation about city placement and such, I know I'm guilty of having a very superficial report, and I probably should go in depth more, like I did earlier, but I get too involved in my games now

EDIT:
TMIT also makes a good point about how hard it is to find a start that both looks and plays easy. Also, you obviously have varied results based on what the RNG throws at you so some people may get lucky vs others getting stiffed.

 

[schwartz]

Round 2 (Image heavy, this time )

Spoiler Emperor/Normal 275 BC - 475 AD :

Started out by teching currency after math and popping some axes out of Gondar, which also has gold and some cottages. Lalibela, which grabs fish + 4 lake tiles is building up towards running scientists, as is the capital.
1 AD I met Joao's workboat coming over from the west along the island chain, I send my own worboat back that way to see if I can't open some good foreign trade routes with him.
In 50 AD I drop down a new city, Yeha, here:

it grabs some grassland cows and a gold + coastal so the GLH will help pay for it.
100 AD:
Pop the first GP, a merchant from the GLH, in the capital and settle him there so my science slider stays up.
I need to pause for a moment and talk about why Zara is actually very, very good for this map.
Being Creative seals off land nicely, but also gets half price libraries, which are quick to build in every city and add a nice multiplier to the extra trade routes from the GLH.
Organized gives you cheap civics, but gives you the half price courthouses and, more importantly, lighthouses. Most cities are going to use a lighthouse and they are extremely cheap as organized. This also allows you to use freshwater lakes quicker, and they are better, actually, than a grassland farm with their 2 commerce.

Moving on, there is a solid barb city in the south, Magyar, that I want. Right now it's on a plains hill and my military is non-existent, but I will have it eventually.


Currency came in at 150 AD, and I could immediately bump the slider up to 80%. My expansion is going very slowly, right now, but I'm teching at a decent clip and more cities will just add more beakers

Monty comes calling:


and I have to accept, of course. I also sent Currency over to Joao for Alphabet, Archery, and 15 gold this turn.

At this point I notice my main problem, which is that I don't have very many workers. This is, I think, the most common mistake that most people make, you can't have cities working unimproved tiles, and if you're relying on trade routes, like I am here, you need a road network or coastal passage ASAP.

Monty soon came with another demand
which this time, I had to refuse. I can't go giving him a strong tech like currency..
Take a look at the strength of the GLH:


Notice that I have 4 3 commerce trade routes. That's like working 2 financial towns at this point (pre-free speech). Very solid, for sure.

On this turn I also found a hut in the south, with my axeman, he attacks the protecting warrior and:

WOW!

Check out this next city:

Right up against monty's border, but it's a good spot, if I win the cultural battle (easy, with the stele, creative, cheap library) I get grassland cows, wheat, ivory and the city center is on plains ivory, which is an extra hammer as well.

But the really intriguing thing is the full plan here, though:

If I settle on the sign, I can SMOTHER Monty's city here culturally. I also have a bunch of techs on him so I can send him Mansa hunting

Another turn, another solid city:

snug on Joao's border, but also will have a few hammers.. I'll probably put the statues here.

That's about all for this round
Here's the tech screen, we're behind, but not terribly far..

CS will be a good trading tech and Bureaucracy is looking pretty good right now.
I really need to get Monarchy and run HR because of the huge lack of resources.

I did try to get a better report this time, with some explanation to my plans.

 

[Bleys]

I do agree with all those issues, guys. This map is indeed something "deeper", and recently, we have been working on some of the more advanced aspects of the game.

I will try to go back to our roots, easier maps with strong leaders that focus on a specific aspect of play, like religion, warmongering, peaceful building, CE vs SE, Water Map basics, etc. I have already asked rolo to do us a "supplementary" map with Zara, something a bit more straight-forward.

I will say this though, I do agree with TMIT that this map really demonstrates the power of Zara quite well. Its packed with choke points, and since they arent so close to the Cap, ORG comes into play pretty heavily. CRE + the Steele can choke out any AI. And while it is a tad food-poor, it showcases solid city placement that carve out chunks of land for settling later on. These are not "advanced" skills, using Culture to cut off the AIs is pretty basic. Using ORG to support cities a bit far from the capitol is also kind of a basic skill needed at levels above Noble. Learning these techniques first-hand is a strong way to gain skill for that next level. I do admit, however, that the map isnt as "fun" as some others have been, so I will try to make sure that future maps can be both instructive and fun.

 

[patagonia]

These are not "advanced" skills, using Culture to cut off the AIs is pretty basic. Using ORG to support cities a bit far from the capitol is also kind of a basic skill needed at levels above Noble.

Unless I've misunderstood the way Org is implemented, it only has an effect on civic cost, not city maintenance (including the distance component).

Granted, half-price courthouses can be whipped more quickly, but the trait doesn't directly make settling further away cheaper.

 

[ViaArete]

Hey I'm jumping into this game.

I'm playing Noble for the first time without Incans/Pangea, so I'm ready for a bit of a tough time.

Rd. 1:
425 B.C. Noble/Epic

Spoiler :

The early game started out fairly well, though I think I've made my fair share of mistakes. For one, I maybe should have moved one south to settle. I saw someone else made that move, and I think it's probably the right one to make. So it goes.

I was able to explore the continent with minimal difficulty. In fact, since I was able to consistently get the defensive bonus from the abundant forests and hills, I was able to explore most of the continent before either Monty or Mansa had constructed their second city. Goodie huts were plentiful; providing me with a couple warriors, a few hundred gold, and Agriculture.

Early tech-line: Fishing was first, followed by getting bronze working so I could start chopping for a settler (which revealed the copper which lead to Roads) and Pottery for growth. Iron Working was soon after to reveal the resource. After that, I teched to Priesthood for Oracle and masonry for Marble, then Writing and Alphabet so I could start trading the techs I'd left behind. Currently researching Monarchy for Hereditary Rule.

I sent out my first settler around turn 70, and founded Gandor here:


I'm not sure that I really love the placement, but there are a couple reasons why I founded it there:
1. Resources; my burgeoning capitol is already suffering from unhappiness and unhealthiness, so the cows and gold should help a bit. Access to horses is, obviously, advantageous.
2. Block off Monty. I'm not sure this is a great a idea, but I've decided to go for it anyway. He's already over-extended himself, so far as I can tell. There was a barb city just a little SW of Aksum, which Monty has taken over for his third city; it shouldn't be too much trouble taking it from him, but I am somewhat concerned about retaliation.
3. It had some forests which enabled me to chop The Oracle.

- Oracle Race -

Soon after founding my second city, I decided I was in trouble and had to build the Oracle. I whipped a settler from the capitol, and sent him off with an axeman escort here:


Again, I'm not crazy about the city placement, but it gave me access to Marble, which I needed to get the Oracle out. I won the Oracle race and learned Metal Casting, which will help start to reduce the unhappy faces that have been mounting (and will continue to as I crack the whip )

-- Future Plans --

Here's my empire so far:



And here's where I plan to found my next city:



I want access to that Iron, and if I finish building the Colossus, the coastal squares will be fairly decent too. Depending on what's across that little strait, I may end up moving the city one NW. If anyone's got advice on a better placement, please share.

Besides this city, there's a bit of a complicating circumstance... Monty. Since Mansa and I are religious brethren I can rest easy about him, but Monty's a whole different animal. His nearest city is very close, and I'm afraid he'll have access to Iron very quickly if I don't move against him soon. Although I'd rather just grow my empire for awhile, I know I can't trust Monty to be cool for any length of time, so I'm thinking I'll bring it to him before he can take me by surprise.

Anyone who wants to offer constructive criticism (or just out-and-out bashing, if you really want to) would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Bandobras Took]

And while it is a tad food-poor, it showcases solid city placement that carve out chunks of land for settling later on. These are not "advanced" skills, using Culture to cut off the AIs is pretty basic.

Spoiler :

Er . . . cut the AIs off from what, exactly? There's not much point to sending a bunch of settlers to either Montezuma's or Mansa's territory; they're too far away. Using Creative to cut off AIs is indeed a basic skill; I would have relished a map where it was viable/made a significant difference. In my own game, I've been using big culture to make sure that there's plenty of space between Montezuma's troops and my cities, but I've had to spend so much attention on Montezuma that I've not given much thought to Mansa, who's currently at the bottom of the score chart without my having done a single thing in his direction.

As far as my own game, I finished out the Parthenon and used a Great Prophet and Great Arist to bulb Divine Right, founding Islam. I got an annoying "your improvements have been destroyed by rioting" event. Got to remember to manage happiness a bit better. Other than that, Montezuma thankfully declared war on Victoria. It seems my city devoted to axemen was sufficient to keep him off my back, but we'll see (unless that event has permanently put me off of the game . . . I had to quit when that happened or I might have broken something. )

 

[Bleys]

The cheap courthouses from ORG are what I was referring too to help with the distance factor.

And BT:

Spoiler :

I cut Monty off here, with these 2 cities ensuring the SE portion of the map was open for me to settle:



And I cut Mansa off here, limiting him to very few cities for a LONG LONG time:



I didnt settle the areas in between these cities and my cap until very recently, after Currency and CoL. If I had not built those cities, Mansa and Monty would both have gained much more land, as they AIs can settle many more cities than the human player because of the decreased maintenance they pay.

Again, I think the problem people have with this map is there there arent a lot of "grab 4 resources" spots to settle, its resource and food poor, but hammer rich, with tons of forests to chop and hills to mine. I dunno, maybe I am wrong about that, can someone explain to me why they think this map is "hard"?

 

[Bandobras Took]

Bleys: What's your game speed?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Unless I've misunderstood the way Org is implemented, it only has an effect on civic cost, not city maintenance (including the distance component).

Granted, half-price courthouses can be whipped more quickly, but the trait doesn't directly make settling further away cheaper.

While true, from a pure $$$ standpoint it doesn't matter which facet of costs ORG is cutting - the fact of the matter is you can settle further away than other traits and pay the same amount of gold. While you'd pay even less if you'd settled closer, the reduction in civic upkeep allows for abusing settling strategy more than other traits. Of course courthouses are nice too.

@ BT: There are two viable examples of using creative to block posted already . By chance I managed to *really* screw one of the AIs I did it to, and greatly limited the other - one of the key factors in my success thus far.

@ ViaArete: I like your tech path thus far (now a fan of early monarchy), and wonders are a matter of strategic choice. Expansion is a little on the slow side and you could certainly use more workers - also mind barbs with that city placement. I disagree on the 4th city and think you should us it to claim the nice tiles that will be out of its range to the east, although I've not seen 2 equivalent city sites in that area yet.

@ Everyone in general: In my walkthroughs I list what techs I'm going for, and not only that but the dates in the early game (when it matters vs just tech path choice). I'm pretty sure I even mention the majority of my trades up until 500 AD when it gets annoying to :/. I will apologize in advance about dotmaps - I'll never post them. I never did actually . My mentality is usually just throwing cities down where they benefit me the most quickly - I want fast returns as in Civ IV I find that the early game is the hard part for me and that I can take advantage of early strengths and turn them into game-long ones. I actually put some thought into city placement on this map for a change, but that was less for city optimization than it was for the strategic decision of blocking the AIs off. You can see what walling off led to in my 2nd segment - I got away with something you'd not get away with even on lower difficulties because of it.

 

[r_rolo1]

Bleys: What's your game speed?

He's playing Epic ( 750 turns in screenie )