Nobles' Club XC: Catherine of Russia

[Choggy]

Monarch 1560AD (ongoing)

Spoiler :

About to DoW Pericles with 16 Cossacks, some upgraded rifle for city defence and a load of trebs that I'll need later on if he gets gunpowder which were built whilst waiting for MT. He's got lots of cities compared to me so it's going to be a long slog to vassal him but if I leave him any longer I'll never be able to break out. I'm only able to attack him at all by dint of a 36-turn GA from building the MoM early on and The Taj Mahal along with the usual thrashing of my National Epic city for GP's.

Blocked him off at the corn/iron/fish site but settled behind the mountain range above the sugar-fest/marble site as that bloody 1-sea tile gap between him and Pacal meant that Pacal was able to spread Hinduism to him before I got Confu from a free Col from Oracle and I didn't fancy settling a city which would have needed lots of defenders and slowed my initally poor tech rate down even further. Even though I spammed him with Missionaries he wouldn't convert. In hindsight I'd have probably taken HR from the Oracle and rushed him early doors and be damned with my economy.

WvO is storming the tech race even though he hasn't got many cities. Fortunately he traded me the marble I needed early on and hasn't cancelled the deal otherwise the extended Golden Age wouldn't have happened and I'd be stuck with my 10 cities (I was in a race with him for Nationalism, beat him by 1 turn and was able to get the Taj built quickly in Moscow). He went Wheeorn against me ages ago (don't know why) but I'll deal with that later.

Monty/Ramesses and the Romans are large empires but backward. I might invade them after Pericles depending on how close WvO and Pacal are to Infantry.

Good map though, quite challenging. Not sure how it'll pan out - I don't enjoy diplo or culture wins but maybe this is the way to go with this one.

 

[vranasm]

hmm wanted some fun game on Monarch up to 300 BC with totally crashed economy (strike)

Spoiler :

kind of looked like good idea to do HA rush on pericles which ended with me sitting at 11 good cities, place for cca 8 more, but -57 gpt strike, luckilly got Alphabet and will get currency in 8 while units will be slowly deleted

edit:
pfft will be easier then i thought

Spoiler :

couple of turns later out of strike, have to start a bit with worker force ;-)

 

[Grashopa]

"pfft will be easier then i thought"

Yep trashing your economy to go to war is not that scary if you have experience at it and plan your research.

 

[surok]

1907 immortal no huts space race

Spoiler :

Was a tough game for me, had to reload a couple of times cause else i would lose space race by 1 turn to AC.
1390 ad rushed pericles with cossacks. Could have done it earlier, but i wanted him to build some wonders for me first. Vassaled him after capturing his core cities.
Researched industrialism branch with pericles and space race tree myself.
Willem was culture whoring so i destroyed 2 of his cities, captured 1, than liberated it.
Destroyed rome in 1904, 1 turn before his SS would return. had to make some reloads though, cause first time combat odds screw me, and there was left 1 machinized infantry with 3.2 hp there after my attack.

 

[dalamb]

I finally had time to add the Emperor no-huts save and fix the roman numbering in the title. Sorry for the delay.

 

[learner gamer]

Took this one out for a quick spin at monarch / normal. Progress to 1480 BC.

Spoiler :

SIP then grew to pop 4 whilst builds went worker > 2 warriors. Found Pericles and decided to build another worker and barracks when AH revealed horses available on border pop. At pop 5 worked hammer heavy tiles and just built and chopped 10 chariots. Peri now finished and Stonehenge captured. Tech: agri > AH > TW > BW > pottery > fishing > writing (couple of turns left).

Next up: connect the cities, recover and REx

 

[surok]

Spoiler :

I don't see the point in destroying pericles too fast. Actually i don't see the point of doing that at all he can be a very usefull trade partner, and will build some wonders for you, when u vassal him later. And chariot rush is even worse choice vs phalanx in my opinion.

 

[Choggy]

Spoiler :

I don't see the point in destroying pericles too fast. Actually i don't see the point of doing that at all he can be a very usefull trade partner, and will build some wonders for you, when u vassal him later. And chariot rush is even worse choice vs phalanx in my opinion.

Spoiler :

What makes this map a challenge is the amount of space that Pericles can expand into compared to your own civ and the fact that the Financial civs become very powerful in the late game.Also, a lack of river tiles means that you'll be building lots of cottages instead of running lots of specialists, slowing the mid-game tech rate down.

And you're right, a Chariot Rush is tough. I might be wrong here, but I think that Dalamb designed the map so that you could HA rush Pericles.

 

[i_imperator]

Spoiler :

What makes this map a challenge is the amount of space that Pericles can expand into compared to your own civ and the fact that the Financial civs become very powerful in the late game.Also, a lack of river tiles means that you'll be building lots of cottages instead of running lots of specialists, slowing the mid-game tech rate down.

And you're right, a Chariot Rush is tough. I might be wrong here, but I think that Dalamb designed the map so that you could HA rush Pericles.

Spoiler :

I can vouch for this, a chariot rush is possible, however you'll be left expanding an entire Continent, i dont think i got alphabet until 200ad, and i was miles behind in tech, you can catch up with the later developed cities, however its just too much for the human player to do, and by the time you do catch up, on the higher difficulties the ai will be closing in on victory, and gaining vassles.
I may give this a third attempt, i have to think about a new strat at the moment though. My problem may be tech choice in the early game and producing enough GS for bulbing the tech tree+trades. I do believe it is possible to take out greece with muskets/cannons bulb-ed from lib.Maybe i'll try cossacks next time

 

[learner gamer]

@surok:

Spoiler :

I don't see the point in destroying pericles too fast. Actually i don't see the point of doing that at all he can be a very usefull trade partner, and will build some wonders for you, when u vassal him later. And chariot rush is even worse choice vs phalanx in my opinion.

If I’d played the game on immortal, keeping Peri alive is exactly how I’d have played it...and for exactly the reasons you mentioned. However, I’m taking this game out for a whirl because I’m currently specifically trying to improve my ability to recover after warring – which is something that’s held me back in a few recent games – and obviously I need to rush and / or REx first if I’m going to practise improving economic recovery.

To that end, I’m actually going to make a couple of attempts with this map. The first – attached below – sees me tech alpha following writing, with the intention of laying down a few mines (and cottages) and building research in hammer heavy cities. My next attempt will see me tech IW after writing (which is why I kept Sparta for the double gems). That said, given how well I’m managing to tech here, I think teching IW will prove inferior to alpha. If that indeed proves to be the case, I will have learned a big lesson....and will be able to see just how much my aversion to building research / wealth at the expense of infrastructure is holding back my game.

Indeed, perhaps you can help here: under what circumstances would teching IW be superior to alpha? Double gems provides a non-trivial incentive, but I think I’m (finally) beginning to realise thanks to this attempt that maintenance costs are simply too great to justify teching IW in this instance. Something tells me the optimum choice of tech involves some kind of equation involving a trade off between the extra commerce from the gems (or IW resource) and the extra maintenance costs incurred from settling cities....but I most definitely don’t have a natural feel for it yet.

Re: phalanxes. I was aware of the risk too but never saw any. After revealing all but a couple of tiles in Peri’s BFC, my scout saw no copper and, whilst Peri eventually settled for copper in the 3rd ring of Sparta, he never had time to hook it up before my chariots arrived. Had I seen early accessible copper and / or encountered Alex (instead of Peri), you’re right, this start wouldn’t have worked....and I wouldn’t have tried it.

Re: wonders. Funnily enough, I’ve arrived at an interesting juncture in which, having gotten to alpha and met Pacal, I can backfill and open up a shot at aesthetics > literature to leverage the marble. The other option is of course to beeline currency and continue the REx. FWIW, my instinct (and it’s in keeping with my desire to improve my ability to maintain an economy post REx / war) is to tech currency and fill out the continent with more cities...but those wonders are sooooo shiny.

 

[Um the Muse]

Initial thoughts: Wow, that is going to be one heckuva strong production city. At least 5 grassland hills, and plenty of food to work them. Deer might look weak at first, but a)It's forested b)It's next to the river. It's good enough to postpone agri. On the other hand, I could use it for another city, depending on the land.

I'm afraid what the rest of the land looks like. It's probably cold and nasty. I guess there's one way to find out.

Techs: AH, BW? or the other way around. I'm going to try for an early library, too. The land doesn't look good for cottages, and I'm not big on going for Oracle right away.

 

[surok]

@surok:

Spoiler :

If I’d played the game on immortal, keeping Peri alive is exactly how I’d have played it...and for exactly the reasons you mentioned. However, I’m taking this game out for a whirl because I’m currently specifically trying to improve my ability to recover after warring – which is something that’s held me back in a few recent games – and obviously I need to rush and / or REx first if I’m going to practise improving economic recovery.

To that end, I’m actually going to make a couple of attempts with this map. The first – attached below – sees me tech alpha following writing, with the intention of laying down a few mines (and cottages) and building research in hammer heavy cities. My next attempt will see me tech IW after writing (which is why I kept Sparta for the double gems). That said, given how well I’m managing to tech here, I think teching IW will prove inferior to alpha. If that indeed proves to be the case, I will have learned a big lesson....and will be able to see just how much my aversion to building research / wealth at the expense of infrastructure is holding back my game.

Indeed, perhaps you can help here: under what circumstances would teching IW be superior to alpha? Double gems provides a non-trivial incentive, but I think I’m (finally) beginning to realise thanks to this attempt that maintenance costs are simply too great to justify teching IW in this instance. Something tells me the optimum choice of tech involves some kind of equation involving a trade off between the extra commerce from the gems (or IW resource) and the extra maintenance costs incurred from settling cities....but I most definitely don’t have a natural feel for it yet.

Re: phalanxes. I was aware of the risk too but never saw any. After revealing all but a couple of tiles in Peri’s BFC, my scout saw no copper and, whilst Peri eventually settled for copper in the 3rd ring of Sparta, he never had time to hook it up before my chariots arrived. Had I seen early accessible copper and / or encountered Alex (instead of Peri), you’re right, this start wouldn’t have worked....and I wouldn’t have tried it.

Re: wonders. Funnily enough, I’ve arrived at an interesting juncture in which, having gotten to alpha and met Pacal, I can backfill and open up a shot at aesthetics > literature to leverage the marble. The other option is of course to beeline currency and continue the REx. FWIW, my instinct (and it’s in keeping with my desire to improve my ability to maintain an economy post REx / war) is to tech currency and fill out the continent with more cities...but those wonders are sooooo shiny.

Spoiler :

I am not a good player, to give u advices here, but i think that teching ascetics would be a better choice than alpha or iw here. because your scout can find willem's work boats pretty early and that means that you will have 3 trade partners. So teching ascetics will provide u both with iw and alpha with a little beakers invested in them. And iw is not really a priority on that map if u are not rushing pericles, because he can take care of that jungle for you. Seems pretty cheep and effective. Also since you don't have marble or stone it's easy to give that away.

I played this game a little less agressive than you, i wasn't rushing to block pericles, cause i knew that he will settle a better sights first, so i was slowly growing to like 10 or 11 cities, can't remember now, without losing a of money on maintenence. Than i won economics race, switched to theocracy and started building horse archers. With the gm i sailed to willem and got 1700 gold from settling him in amsterdam. so i had like 8 cossacks ready in 1200 or so, than i waited a bit, not sure for what reason, and rushed with 15 cossacks / 4 rifles for garrison. Easily captured all his cities from knossos to mycenae.

The thing is that real danger to my opinion here is rome. Since he is pretty far away from you, and will probably go for space too, so you either have to time your space ship better than i did (as i said earlier first time i lost 1 turn to AC) while building troops to take care about culture whores on the west. For me it was hard to find that balance with building troops/ss parts, maybe if i did it better, i wouldn'd have to destroy rome.

So what i am saying is on higher difficulties it's almost impossible to win this if u destroy pericles. I guess you can vassal pacal or willem, but i hate sea battles, i think that combat odds for shipps are always 50% no matter if it is caravel vs destroyer, or destroyer vs destroyer.

And as for recovering from the war, on this map since u most definetely wouldn't get ap religion, you can spent the time that is usually spent on building ap monasteries, temples to build some money oriented stuff. In early game money from capturing cities with your slider down is usually enough to avoid strike till u get currency, the worst thing that can happen is that you will have to abuse anarchy a bit.

 

[surok]

double post, sorry for that

 

[learner gamer]

Monarch / normal to 100 BC.

Spoiler :

This map has provided me with a very valuable lesson in just how valuable getting to alpha early can be. With hammer heavy cities alternating as needed between workers / settlers / research / wealth, the empire has managed to expand nicely to 11 cities and will net CoL next turn. Cities 12 and 13 aren’t far away either. FWIW, I subsequently tried going IW (for the double gems) after writing and the results were nowhere near as strong as the current save....which likely means keeping Sparta was also a mistake. Thanks for the map @dalamb!

As at the save, Pacal is now offering maths (and mysticism) in trade for alpha – which I’m inclined to take to open up both calendar (after I tech sailing) to access sugar and silk, and the path towards monarchy. The random spread of both Buddhism and Confucianism will help future happiness – particularly once I get some missionaries out.

Interestingly, neither The Parthenon nor The Great Library have gone yet, so the opportunity still exists to leverage the marble. However, that would likely necessitate continuing to build wealth to tech aesthetics and literature in a reasonable time (although whipping courthouses will help too.) That said, literature will open up both National Epics and I have marble, so it’s not without value. IMHO, the question is whether to go calendar, monarchy or metal casting and deal with the pressing issue of happiness first.

All that said, priority #1 is to scout the outside world much more and get some overseas trade routes with Pacal. On balance, perhaps this suggests sailing > trade for maths > calendar to raise the happy cap will be the short term plan....perhaps turning off the slider for a while after sailing, just in case Pacal goes calendar and opens up a trade involving aesthetics.

@surok:

Spoiler :

Thanks for your advice. Yeah, you’re absolutely right....killing Peri is not a good idea if you’re playing this at immortal. BTW, congratulations on your win – and welcome to cfc!

 

[Kingjester1]

I've played to about 1AD on Monarch (epic speed), here are my thoughts:

Spoiler :

I started with SIP while teching Animal Husbandry. The deer are workable right away since you start with Hunting, so there is enough time to AH -> Agri while keeping your first worker busy.

As soon as I spotted Pericles to the south I rushed 2 blocking cities. The territory on my end of the landmass is really cottage poor, so using the capital's monster production I built/chopped the Pyramids while teching to Writing. From there on I settled every food source, built a library, and started running scientists. Research really kicked in at this point and I was able to take the entire Aesthetics line to Music for the free GA.

My biggest mistake was not getting a work boat/galley out fast enough to scout the Greek shoreline. Peri ultimately built a city whose culture prevented me from exploring, so I had no choice but to build cities closer to Pericles so I could open boarders without fear of him dropping a city in my territory. This means I met the western landmass civs a little late, but they were still pretty backwards.

Running a specialist economy is unsustainable on this map, however. I'm leaning towards getting some GSs and bulbing my way to Lib -> Nationalism. I can then build some cuirassiers and take over/vassalize Greece while working my way to Rifling to I can upgrade to Cossacks. I'm thinking it will be imperative that I get a foot hold on the western landmass and attack the Financial civs to prevent them from becoming powerhouses.

 

[surok]

Monarch / normal to 100 BC.

Spoiler :

This map has provided me with a very valuable lesson in just how valuable getting to alpha early can be. With hammer heavy cities alternating as needed between workers / settlers / research / wealth, the empire has managed to expand nicely to 11 cities and will net CoL next turn. Cities 12 and 13 aren’t far away either. FWIW, I subsequently tried going IW (for the double gems) after writing and the results were nowhere near as strong as the current save....which likely means keeping Sparta was also a mistake. Thanks for the map @dalamb!

As at the save, Pacal is now offering maths (and mysticism) in trade for alpha – which I’m inclined to take to open up both calendar (after I tech sailing) to access sugar and silk, and the path towards monarchy. The random spread of both Buddhism and Confucianism will help future happiness – particularly once I get some missionaries out.

Interestingly, neither The Parthenon nor The Great Library have gone yet, so the opportunity still exists to leverage the marble. However, that would likely necessitate continuing to build wealth to tech aesthetics and literature in a reasonable time (although whipping courthouses will help too.) That said, literature will open up both National Epics and I have marble, so it’s not without value. IMHO, the question is whether to go calendar, monarchy or metal casting and deal with the pressing issue of happiness first.

All that said, priority #1 is to scout the outside world much more and get some overseas trade routes with Pacal. On balance, perhaps this suggests sailing > trade for maths > calendar to raise the happy cap will be the short term plan....perhaps turning off the slider for a while after sailing, just in case Pacal goes calendar and opens up a trade involving aesthetics.

Spoiler :

I am not sure if wonder building is a good use of hammers here. But since u have decided to self tech alpha, and not planning to trade off ascetics too soon, getting library may be a good idea. The only problem is that i don't remember if there was an easy marble available on this map.

@surok:

Spoiler :

Thanks for your advice. Yeah, you’re absolutely right....killing Peri is not a good idea if you’re playing this at immortal. BTW, congratulations on your win – and welcome to cfc!

Thank you, i have been playing noble's club and immortal uni games for a while, but didin't feel like I was ready to post here, cause there were just too many things I couldn't understand. But after watching TheMeInTeam and Chris67132 videos for some time, I can say that my game improved a lot, I moved from monarch to immortal, and feel pretty comfortable there. So now, when I've got some confidence, I decided to become a full member of cfc.

 

[pigswill]

Noble epic 10ad.

Spoiler :

Saw Pericles nearby, hadn't met anyone else, axerush c 1600bc, half way through meet a WB from Sury. Oops. Finish off Pericles, build Pyramids c 600bc, spammed up to 12 cities (research from cheap libraries). Got currency and calendar, working on Col.

 

[i_imperator]

@learner gamer

Spoiler :

Well done on your successful rush and expansion! I'm very impressed with your monarch save.
I'm my play-through, i think my mistake was bad tech choices. I decided to go for Monarchy instead of aesthetics so i could grow my cities. I'm my game i also didn't fog-bust, i allowed the barb cities to spawn so i could conquer them and get gold/experience.

I may play from your 500BC Save, if you don't mind. I want to see if expanding like this can help you win.

 

[learner gamer]

@i_imperator:

Spoiler :

Thanks for your kind words. Funnily enough, the point you make re: tech choices is precisely the reason why I gave this map a go...and I’ve learned a whole bunch in the process, especially about the power alphabet provides to transform hammers into beakers when you get hammer rich starts like this.

Fog busting would of course be harder on emperor, so I completely understand that your save is more likely to see barb cities pop up and the barb threat increase. That said, I’m not sure I’d actively encourage them with this much land to fill....as I discovered in this game, the distance maintenance costs resulting from keeping Peri’s cities stifle the expansion, so I’m not sure I’d want the extra costs of an army (built to take barb cities) on top. FWIW, I find that milking barb cities for XP can however be very useful if the landmass is smaller (or your initial cities are closer together) and / or the start is commerce / beaker rich – so the army maintenance can be afforded.

By all means, please feel free to play from the earlier save. Talking of which, do you happen to have a game save outlining what the position looks like by going monarchy early (which I also considered before beelining alpha)? As I discovered in this game, going alpha sure beats IW (even with double gems) – and I’d appreciate learning what the impact of going monarchy might have looked like.

 

[i_imperator]

@learner gamer

Spoiler :

Here are the saves, the 350BC one is before i start teching monarchy. I have already tech-ed up to priesthood however.The 620AD Save is after i tech-ed monarchy, and i am teching towards aesthetics.
I noticed in your game you kept the gems city off Greece, i decided to raze it as i couldn't deal with the maintenance on emperor, and i felt that IW isn't very necessary on this map, there are only two main locations where it is necessary; the gems site and the silk/Corn site.