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Nobles Club XLIV: Darius I of Persia

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by cas, Feb 25, 2010.

  1. Inso

    Inso Chieftain

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    Don't think I've ever tried the great plains script and I'm getting bored of fractals so I'll be giving this a go on emp/normal. 1SE looks a good option to settle, get a couple of green tiles in the mix.
     
  2. gagnarath

    gagnarath Chieftain

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    Location:
    Manchester, UK
    Monarch / Normal 25 AD -> 1908 UN Loss

    Spoiler :
    Managed to conquer about 40% of the world but fell behind in tech, made a last ditch attempt to dominate but cannons/rifles/drafted infantry couldn't compete with artilery/infantry. Was slowly losing my land to Hannibal when the UN vote came up, I voted him winner to speed the process along ;p He had SB as a defeated vassal and Gilgamesh as a peace vassal at around 1000 AD after he tried to declare on me and I killed most of his armies but went after Pacal's land. Justinian was ahead in ship parts and built UN, he, Hannibal and Gilgamesh were tech trading like wildfire and I had very little chance to catch up after falling behing despite being friendly till I back stabbed Hannibal >.> I just wasn't using my land right to get to techs in time to get any trade value.

    Not tried this map type before, kind of fun but I got a little over confident after capitulating Pacal and suffered teh consequences. Was far too slow building up to the next war, got backstabbed by Shaka and removing him from teh earth took a little too long. I didn't give Pacal enough land back so he became a useless vassal.
     
  3. Trystero

    Trystero Chieftain

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    I also haven't really tried a Great Plains map. The Persians are my among my favorite leaders. I will give this a try this weekend using the approach TMIT outlined in this thread. I had good luck using that approach in an offline game where I drew Sitting Bull as my random leader.

    (I will also try to to post the end of my Lincoln NC game :sad:)
     
  4. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
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    25,027
    After playing this, I take back what I said earlier. This map is very doable ---> The AI does *not* get freebie double digit cities. The challenge then becomes staying upright with all the plains, but there are at least a couple good spots nearby. This shouldn't be too rough below deity other than the leaders in it.

    @ above: Cap management is very important on this map, but your cottage options won't be so great. A lot of factors will push you away from the basic highlight in the guide.
     
  5. huerfanista

    huerfanista Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Monarch/normal thru around 1400AD:

    Spoiler :

    Settled in place, set research to AH (the obvious 1st build with Persians) and started on a worker. When horses popped up in the BFC my scouts task was to find victims. :devil: For some reason I missed Kublai in the initial exploration, but Pacal was close by. Just built a warrior for :) in the capital while the horses were being hooked up, then barracks> *immortals. I DOWed Pacal around 2300BC with 6 immortals. He had 2 cities with 2 archers each - none promoted! Lights out, dude. I lost 1 immortal and gained the hindu holy city. :) After that, I built Stonehenge in Mutal and GW in Persepolis. Then Kublai settled a city due west of Persepolis near the gems, so I moved the troops back and started cranking more imortals. I DOWed him around 1500BC and took all 3 of his cities. He had a city on top of copper S of his capital, but in spite of getting a spearman out I still took him down.

    After that it was time to roll out the "Persian Uncrashable Economy" (TM). :lol: I settled cities as fast as I could spam them. First, however, Persepolis built the 'mids. Some of the sites SW in the hills are simply amazing - multiple FPs, gold, silver, deer. I briefly was down to 20% on the slider, but my :science: output was still pretty robust (CoL in 6 turns), and once courthouses were up it was back to 50%. Spammed cottages wherever practical, and built plenty of military in case Shaka decided to get frisky. He did, OFC, but not with me! :lol: Gilgamesh was his first target, inspite of Bull being his WE - perfect, 2 protective civs! That'll keep him occupied. Shaka founded confucianism, Justinian was christian, the others were jewish (founded by Gilgamesh). I stayed out of religion completely. Built the GLib once lit was in, then went MC> mach> CS> construction> engineering. I built lots of wonders (because I could): HG, SoZ, Parth, SP, ND, and got some good failgold on a couple of others (Chicken Pizza). Once I had a bunch of trebs/maces I DOWed Shaka (he was at war with Justinian this time :lol: ), and capped him after taking his best cities.

    Hannibal built the AP, so that had to go next. After engineering I went phil (bulb)> paper> edu> lib (to 1 turn), music, nationalism, lib> MilTrad, gunpowder, PP(bulb). I started spamming cuirassiers while teching to rifling (with a detour to economics to grab the free GM). I DOWed Han with a stack of cuirassiers/trebs just before rifling came in, grabbed the AP city and razed it, then brought up the cavalry and capped him after taking 1 more city. I'm so far ahead in tech it's ridiculous:


    After rifling I went chem(bulb)> SciMeth (bulb)> communism. I'm now in US, FS, SP, FR, caste, and I have as much land as all the others combined. I should be able to take out the 3 remaining jokers before 1600AD - they only have LBs/knights (except Justinian, who doesn't have horses :lol: ). I probably should have played this one on emperor.
     
  6. Trystero

    Trystero Chieftain

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    @TMIT: Thanks for advice. I see reading the thread that growth can be limited on a GP map. But, the other aspect of the "build units/Monarchy" approach you advocated that really helped my game was building units and expanding rather than improving my existing cities in the early game. I know expansion is important, but I usually play at levels where the game is more forgiving (I play @ Prince), and I tend to be too deliberate in my early expansion (picking "optimal" spots, etc), and do things like build libraries in citites that can't really support specialists. It really made a noticeable difference in the one game where I've applied it so far (granted, it was a Terra map). So thanks again. :goodjob:
     
  7. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    Oh ! This is a fun map !
    I'm at a point I'd really be interested in a few advices, though. Some info in the spoiler. This is the Liberalism era.

    Spoiler :
    Basic situation :

    1200 A.D.
    Pacal is dead, I've got most of his land. He gave me the Pyramids, thus, I've spent a lot of time in Representation, Bureaucracy, Caste System, Organized Religion.
    Justinian has the Hindu Shrine (60%+ of world pop is Hindu) and is first in score.
    Kubilay is wonder spamming and is tied to Justin. He has Hannibal for a vassal.
    Shaka is a medium power.
    Gilg is tiny.
    Sitting Bull is so backwards... I just sold him Code of Law.
    Me ? I'm the nice guy everyone likes ^^

    Now, here is where it gets fun :
    I reached Education first (actually, none of the AIs has it, yet), and produced a great spy at the same time.
    I wondered about my Liberalism slingshot and, as I need land (I'm 3rd in land), decided to hope for Steel.
    GS triggered a golden age, I switched into Pacifism, starved a few cities to produce 2 great scientists (1 of them built an academy) during the GA and researched through Gundpowder and Chemistry. Now, I'm 1 turn away from Liberalism...

    Meanwhile, I bribed Justinian into war with Hannibal. This is where the Khan took him under his protection and declared war on Justin. Shaka has also entered the war against Justinian :crazyeye:


    Now, what shall I do with Lib ?
    A few options :
    - Take it right now n°1 : go for Steel, as planned, and soon invade Justinian. He won't resist cannons at all. This may win me a diplomatic victory out of his AP.
    - Take it right now n°2 : go for Steel, as planned, and invade Sitting Bull/Gilg (the hopeless AIs). To build up my land and pop, that is.
    - Do something really fancy ? I could burn through Printing Press with my remaining GS, then hard tech Scientific Method and pop Biology out of Liberalism... I sure have a few cottages and town, but I above all have above 60 farms... This would take some 10 turns to operate.

    What would you do ?
    Instant military tech vs awesome food production...

    Here's the save, if you need some more details :
     

    Attached Files:

  8. ilikepies

    ilikepies Chieftain

    Joined:
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    I love Darius but hate Great Plains. I'll try this once I finish Bismarck..

    @BornInCantaloup
    Spoiler :

    I wouldn't do the really fancy thing. Invading Justinian seems best IF you are sure you can outfight him. Since he is the strongest, you probably don't need to even kill him, just permanently cripple him. If you attack the wimps Justinian could get ahead while you fight and win. If you attack Justinian, you go up, he goes down, you have more land and less to worry about. Just don't go to war with him if you can't beat him.
     
  9. huerfanista

    huerfanista Chieftain

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    1550AD monarch/normal domination:

    Spoiler :

    Nothing much to it. I had around 60 cavalry split into 2 main stacks, and another 2 stacks of rifles/cavalry/maces/cannon. The 2 cavalry stacks tore into Gilgamesh, taking cities as fast as they could move. The rifle/cannon stacks attacked Justinian. After taking 34 of Gil's cities and 2 of Justinian's (and killing a couple of his SoDs) they both capped. I immediately declared on Bull, and crossed the domination threshold when some of Gil's/Justin's cities came out of revolt.

    The key was committing to an early rush. Immortals are awesome, and getting them in the capital's BFC was a green light special. I rarely worry about going for Pacal with chariots - he always goes for a religion and early wonders, and I've never seen him build a holkan before 1500BC. Taking him out opened up a big chunk of land in to the south. I would have gone for Kublai earlier, but poor scouting was at fault and I didn't know where he was until he settled a city in my backyard. :lol: Nonetheless, even with copper hooked up he didn't have a chance against immortals. With him out of the way, all of that incredibly juicy hill country was mine. Darius can REX as fast as you want without crashing the economy, so I quickly claimed a ton of land - probably 35% of the available land before going to war with Shaka. Even with a peaceful Jewish block (Bull, Gil, Justin), there was no way they could keep up with the Persian juggernaut.



    Power:


    Mfg Goods:


    GNP:


    Top cities:


    Demographics:


    Score:


    southern land:


    central land:


    northern land:


    Persepolis:


    Mutal:


    Karakorum:


    Statistics:

     
  10. L-Plate Ruler

    L-Plate Ruler Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    New Zealand
    Prince/Normal 4000BC - 1AD
    Spoiler :

    Settled in place and set about expanding as quickly as possible. I normally don't like Great Plains maps but being financial I hoped it would make up for some of the downsides.

    At the start I had no idea of what win type I was going to try for.

    Tech'd: Animal Husbandry, The Wheel, Mining Pottery, Bronze Working...
    Build Order: Worker, Barracks, Settler, Worker, Immortal...

    Future plans:
    1. Get my economy back on track.
    2. Back fill the commerce cities to the east.
    3. Take out Kublia Khan while he remains hemmed in.

    1800AD I attacked Gilgamesh's only city, which was woefully under protected, he fell...


    Knowing Sitting Bull to be nearby I sent my army eastward and found the second of his cities. This fell and I moved on to take the capital in 950BC. I decided to keep it as it's a really good commerce site and having a foothold amongst all that grass land, while it would hurt for a start, would pay massive dividends later...



    Managed to get a couple of wonders along the way :D



    Current state of play:




     
  11. GGS

    GGS Chieftain

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    Prince/Epic.

    @cas Excellent meld of leader and map type. It's good that you've added an AI, although I will miss the huts-crutch with a starting scout.

    This Team Persia will settle in place for the extra hammer and build a worker. The scout wiil explore down river and maximize visiblity for horses. The high-value techs will be AH and the wheel.
     
  12. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

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    @ ilikepies :
    Thanks for your advice !

    Spoiler :
    I will probably try both the Steel route and the Biology route, just to compare, in fact. Biology is so expensive I fear it will only be available very late in the game if I don't shoot at it with Lib'. On the other hand, military techs should be tradable.
    You're right pointing out that I should only declare war on Justinian if I'm sure I can take him out, since I've got the bad tendency to declare wars too early and I don't have much military yet (while he has Cataphracts in large numbers). Wars are then a pain to wage...
    Oh... I forgot about Kubilay, he's also a valid DoW target, since he's culture pressing me badly.

    *Not much experience with post 1000 AD play, here*
     
  13. dalamb

    dalamb Chieftain

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    Kingston, Ontario
    Historically the Immortals were infantry, so allowing them defensive bonuses makes sense. Vulnerability to spears might make less sense, unless you're thinking about Thermopylae.
    I see that later on TMIT decided the map wasn't so bad, but it occurs to me that when I have a bit more energy I should probably do a count of land tiles on this and a few typical Pangaea just to compare.
     
  14. cas

    cas Chieftain

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    The sea in the SE corner...which is present in all GPlains maps...takes out some land area. I think a little more when the map-maker uses 'high seas' setting from a previous map even though it is greyed out on GPlains. And the mountains in the west cut down on area the AI will settle as well.

    Estimate 70 total cities on this map.

    cas
     
  15. Heliac

    Heliac Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Stellenbosch, South Africa
    4000 BC

    Prince; Normal - Will go for an Immortal Rush

    1000 BC or so

    Spoiler :
    Tech Path - Mining, AH, Wheel, Pottery, Writing, Alphabet, Masonry, Archery
    Met Pacal, Kublai & Gilgamesh and almost ready for the rush, path'ed to Pacal - I want his religion city (jewish) and his UU makes me nervous. I had 3 cities for the rush, all with barracks & granary.


    500 AD or so

    Spoiler :
    Tech Path - Bronze Working, Iron Working, Currency, Code of Laws, Mysticism, Fishing, Sailing, Polytheism, Metal Casting, Monotheism, Monarchy, Horseback Riding, Aesthetics, Literature, Mathematics
    800 BC - I declared war on Pacal, but as expected, his Holkans mowed down my Immortals. In the end however, sheer numbers sufficed. I kept all his cities of which the capital became a jewish shrine shortly afterwards; This will be my future wealth city. I got Stonehenge for my troubles too :) I still had 12 or so Immortals left, so I threw most of them at Kublai Kahn, just to push him back a bit, whilst cottage-spamming rivers. My research bar made a turn-about at 0%!!! Thankfully, markets and Kublai's wallet helped a bit until the cottages could mature some more.
    25AD - Made peace with Kublai, built the Pyramids, got CoL and naturally, switched to Caste System & Representation, all in one turn :) The funny thing is that up to this point, I never-ever whipped; usually I whip 'em 'till they bleed! From hereon I focused on infrastructure, building towards a Hybrid Economy and using Binary Research.
    450AD - I now have 8 cities and looking at the map, I can nicely corner Kublai in. He is obviously building a SoD and looks like he's about to declare on his only neighbour... me. I'm even dropping my Great Library build for a few turns and building spearmen everywhere. Teching Feudalism now for longbows. Shaka (cas, I'd swear you deliberately chose the AI's for their UU's, you sadist :p) is worming his way in to the south of me, but not an immediate threat; I'm being very nice to him - I'll need time and bigger guns to deal with him!
     

    Attached Files:

  16. JTMacc99

    JTMacc99 That's a paddlin'

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    With no other knowledge other than the leader, the starting spot, and the map type, I am thinking that I'll have two options to sort out at the start. Option one is to figure out how close I am to the grassland, and if close, set early war/expansion sights in that direction. Option two is to be sad about the relatively poor ability to use the financial trait, head for Code of Laws and Monarchy relatively early on, and then go to war and don't stop.

    Either way, make damn well sure to see which way the religious chips are falling and choose a state religion wisely. Once I've taken out all of the heathen nations, make sure to go for the holy city as soon as possible once I start knocking off my brothers in faith, because I'll be sure to find a shrine with 50-75 base GPT when I get there.
     
  17. GreenShift84

    GreenShift84 Chieftain

    Joined:
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    46
    Location:
    At my desk
    Emperor/Epic - 4000BC to 300BC

    Spoiler :
    So went with Emp/epic for some crazy immortal abuse...in hindsight should have gone with Immortal...

    Didn't think much of the starting location, so after a little exploring down river to the SE, chose settled down 1S of the flood plain cow! ON the wheat. No way I'm passing on that tile and on the wheat gives access to two more floods for food+commerce...

    From here went warrior first to size 3, then worker-settler-barracks-*immortal. Reasoning is that I want another exploring unit for finding the other civs while being able to gain an extra two commerce while working those flood plains earlier. The economy is going to take a huge hit and every bit helps! Tech path went something like AH-Wheel-Mining-Mysticism-Writing...Myst could have been skipped though...Also no forest to chop + amazing prod. tiles + horse UU -> easy call to skip bronze working.

    Second city went up 1E of horses and just built a monument and barracks before *immortal. These two cities just poured out immortals...crazy early production. Might have thrown in a second worker somewhere for roads...

    So, who gets the fat end of this whooping stick? Justinian come on down! He's founded Buddhism and is top in score...he can be a dangerous AI so might as well smack him around early. Also my settling choice put me much closer to him than the initial start.


    Took peace after these two cities on the next turn (dont remember losing any immortals, also got a tech or two for peace). He's no longer a threat to me, doesn't have his holy city, and hopefully will provide a very nice distraction for Shaka...Also, I had other needs for these troops. Captured cities went Library-Research. (No need for monuments since I captured only cities with religions...hence could skip myst...)

    During the war unit production never halted, so in the same year as the above pic, this force was in place to strike.


    Declared on Pacal (Judaism founder) same turn I took peace with Justy...took the first city with that battalion while the troops from the byzantine war used the road network to quickly rejoin the fighting. Saw only two holkans and lost 3-4 immortals in the war. Pacal I wiped out completely, he shared religion with Kublai and Shaka, so with his teching abilities and those potential allies he had to go.

    Now things start to get a little hairy. I guess I was expecting to lose a few more units...Shortly after the Mayan war the funds ran out. Units start striking so have to act fast. Options aren't great though, but something has to be done. Three turns of strike, many suicide immortals, and one razed Sumerian city later I am back on my feet. Ugh vultures and spears aren't kind to immortals, but had to be done. Picked off a few of Gilga's stray units and took peace after just a few turns. Again, Gilga can be a strong AI and founded Hindu so he was picked, especially since declaring on Shaka or Khan was a big no-go. Forgot to take screens during all the excitement, apologies.

    After nabbing Aesthetics for (much needed) trade, whipping in libraries for scientists, went COL for cheap courthouse recovery option (cottages not looking so hot here) and actually founded Confucianism! :lol: Next tech is Literature for the epics then on to Civil Service. Stopped here at 300BC, the two cities I founded:


    Persepolis:


    Criticisms: Myst was unnecessary, shouldve stopped troop production in cap for scientists/research earlier (thats my first great person coming in 5 :sad:), also should be jewish by now
    Good: Three rivals are now non-factors :goodjob:, about break even at 30% research so economy is fine, at tech parity, 7 cities (3 holy sites), soon to have shared religion with strongest/most dangerous remaining AIs, also looks like Shaka is taking my bait so some shared war bonuses with him to come...shouldnt be hard to bribe Kublai against Gilga soon either.


    Called it quits here, the game is more than wrapped up and with the challenge goes the excitement. But the opening was too fun not to share and was a good way to really push an early advantage ftw :hammer:
     
  18. Sportyatuncw06

    Sportyatuncw06 Chieftain

    Joined:
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    131
    Location:
    Raleigh, nc
    I finally got BTS patch 3.19 and bug mod. Looking to give this a spin. I am not sure how to post screenshots though.
    Spoiler :
    settled in place
     

    Attached Files:

  19. Trystero

    Trystero Chieftain

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    Location:
    San Francisco, California
    A quick write-up, as I think my approach didn't differ greatly from that of others:

    Prince/Epic to 10 AD:

    Spoiler :
    I debated moving toward the gems, but I settled in place. My tech path went: AH > The Wheel > Mining > Pottery (for graneries) > BW (mostly for Slavery, rather then copper)> Mysticism (SH/monuments) > Masonry > Meditation > PH (teching toward Monarchy, if HR is needed) > IW > Writing > Monarchy > Archery > Alphabet > Math > Construction..

    I managed to build both Stonehenge and the Great Wall. I hooked up the horses in the capital's BFC and built Immortals. I declared war on Pacal in 1700 BC and captured Mutal. This was nice, since it was the Hindu holy city, and most of the world was Hindu. I took a short break to rebuild my stack and finished off his remaining city.

    Here is the north of my empire at 10 AD:



    and the south:



    I had boxed in Kublai Khan at this point. Shaka was expanding to the east. Justinian had a nice capital, so he was going to be my next target.


    To 1720, Domination victory:

    Spoiler :

    After eliminating Pacal, I built swords and teched toward Construction for catapults. I was managing to maintain parity with Shaka in the power ranking. One benefit of building lots of units: Gilgamesh voluntarily became my vassal. Sitting Bull had capitulated to Shaka.

    When I had catapults online I declared war on Justinian, and had KK declare on me. I managed to quickly capture Constantinople and a couple of other cities, and then asked for capitulation. I used my substantial empire at this point to maintain a tech lead, build the Great Library, and win the Liberalism race, all while continuous building units and teching toward Steel.

    By the time I declared war against KK, I had a distinct advantage in the power rankings over the rest of the world. I got Cuirassiers and cannons online during my final war with Shaka, and SB capitulated without fighting after Shaka, which pushed me over the Domination limit:



    This was a fun game, but not much of a challenge (at Prince) given the power of Immortals on a Pangea-like map. Not that I'm complaining after the Lincoln game! :lol:


    Thanks cas for hosting!
     
  20. drlake

    drlake Chieftain

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    I'm going to try this one on Prince/Epic, now that I'm done with the Zara game. I'll see if I can find some horses to do an Immortal rush against at least one neighboring civ. All the peace-mongering as Zara needs to be washed away in blood!

    Not sure where I'll settle. Depends on what the scout turns up. I'll be looking to get AH and the Wheel soon, but may do Mining>BW first so I can whip.
     

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