Nobles' Club XLVII: Mansa Musa of Mali

[dalamb]

The Nobles' Club series started out as a way for Noble-level (and below) players to improve their game. Most of the original participants now play at much higher levels, so this has become a way for advanced players to help others learn to play better. You can play your own game at any level and with any mod, but it would be nice to comment on the games of other players and give them advice.

Our next leader is Mansa Musa of Mali.

• SPI means temples are cheaper; also, changing civics avoids anarchy, which means diplomacy can be easier. FIN means +1 on tiles with 2 , which gives a big boost to your economy when you work cottaged tiles (especially those on a riverside) or seafood tiles.
  
  
• His UB, the Mint: a Forge that also gives +10%. Note: not ; in a commerce city you need to build gold-multiplying buildings such as markets and banks, and run the slider to get positive , to get a benefit.
  
  
• His UU, the Skirmisher: an Archer with 4 instead of 3, and 1-2 first strikes instead of 1. Edit: some people think a skirmisher rush can be a good idea.
  
  

And the start:

Spoiler show map details :

Tectonics, 60% water, random opponents, with most deserts edited to be plains, plus an extra river or two. I added more floodplains to the start; what's Mansa without a good commerce capital ?

Finally, a cut and paste of our standard doctrine:

There are no hard and fast rules here: fun and learning are our primary goals, but we do request that you update your progress at various points in the game, using the Spoiler feature of the boards.

Tentative posting updates are suggested at:

4000 BC (starting thoughts, no spoiler required for that discussion)
1000 BC or so (how you decided to progress up the early tech/build paths, which AIs you have met, where you're thinking of putting cities, etc)
500 AD or so (after establishing some cities and a possible plan of action)
1200 AD or so (mid-game, Lib race, wars or peace, or whichever happened or didn't, met other continent if applicable, etc)
1600 AD (or when you have decided on a course of action and a specific victory condition)
End of game (Victory!!! or defeat, no shame in losing, especially if you tried a higher level. Learning is what we focus on, not fastest win or biggest empire)

Remember, these are only guidelines. What we really want are your thoughts as the game goes on, so if your strategies don't fall into line with those dates, feel free to adjust your reports accordingly.

We also welcome players to ask for specific game advice, as we have a number or stronger players who lurk and help out with solid tips, and of course, we help each other. Replies to specific questions should also be in spoilers, with a simple "@" in front of the person the answer is directed towards.

Special Thanks go to Bleys and TMIT, who really made this series a great one, r_rolo1, mapmaker extraordinaire, for his maps for most of the series, and all of you for playing.

The WB-saves are attached (zipped; they are bigger than standard saves). To play, simply download and unzip it into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder. Start the game, and load your favorite MOD (if you use one, if not, check out the BUG MOD), select "Play Scenario", and look for "NC 47 Mansa Noble" (or Monarch, if you want the AI to start with its usual Archery bonus tech, or Immortal for Archery+Hunting, or Deity to add Agriculture). This allows you to play with your favorite MOD at the Level and Speed of your choice. From Quick-Warlord to Marathon-Deity, all are welcome! We stuck with the name "Nobles Club" because it has a cool ring to it.

 

[dalamb]

Oops, forgot to allow all speeds and difficulties. Temporarily removed the .zip file while fixing the problem in all 4 files; it should be OK now, but let me know via PM if there are still any problems.

 

[drlake]

Damn, nice starting location! Now you've given me a reason to delay finishing my attempt to pull off a culture win in the MS-HC game.

 

[dalamb]

I am fond of editing the starts. NC games never go away, so if your current game is time-limited you should probably stick with that one.

 

[drlake]

I am fond of editing the starts. NC games never go away, so if your current game is time-limited you should probably stick with that one.

It isn't. I screwed up the start badly enough that I'm not sure I can pull out any kind of victory in that one, so I don't mind putting it on pause for a while.

 

[drlake]

Initial thoughts:

I'm going to play this one at Monarch/Epic, and try to avoid screwing up my start like I did during my first Monarch game.

After looking at the start more closely, I've concluded that dalamb is Evil. That is the only explanation for a start that offers so many mutually incompatible starting paths.

I'm going to settle in place, since it's such a nice commerce city. Build order will be worker > warrior to start. Tech order will be Agriculture > BW. After BW, I'll either go Masonry to bring the stone online and try to grab the GW or Stonehenge early, or go Hunting to get Skirmishers and put a camp on the elephants. I'll get Fishing after those, to bring the Clams online.

I'll have to see who I run into before I worry about how to approach this game. The idea of a Skirmisher rush has a perverse appeal, but I doubt I'll go down that road unless I find a capital city before I finish researching BW.

 

[dalamb]

After looking at the start more closely, I've concluded that dalamb is Evil. That is the only explanation for a start that offers so many mutually incompatible starting paths.

I'd rephrase that as "interesting choices of starting path" But, really, I'm not all that clever at such things.

 

[duckstab]

After BW, I'll either go Masonry to bring the stone online and try to grab the GW or Stonehenge early, or go Hunting to get Skirmishers and put a camp on the elephants.

Don't Skirmishers require Archery?

My plan is to settle in place. I was briefly tempted to move 1SW to bring the Stone into the BFC but it won't be long before a couple border pops bring it inside my culture anyway. I just can't pass up all those lovely floodplains.

Will go Agriculture->Fishing->Hunting->Pottery->BW->Archery->Writing. After that I'll probably do Priesthood and IW so I can go for the Oracle Metal Casting slingshot and unlock the UB. Then maybe Masonry; with the Stone nearby and being Spiritual, the Pyramids are awfully tempting.

Will go Worker first, farm the Wheat, then probably a Workboat unless I need a Warrior by then.

 

[marick]

First time back in a long time.

I'm going to play this one on Noble, since it's about the level I figure I can handle.
I assume I'm going to want Bronze Working, and then Fishing early. I'm going to build a warrior first, to help explore.

Overall, I just want to try building a cottage economy, I bet, since Financial is so strong with it. So that's my initial thoughts.

 

[slobberinbear]

The techpath: Agriculture > Hunting > Pottery > BW > Archery.

I'll give this a go at Emperor / Normal.

My initial thoughts would be to grow to size 6 working the wheat, 'phants, and 4 FP cottages, then start expanding. I will try to look for a good hammer city (possibly the stone city to the west) first to pump out military units.

With the nearby stone I may attempt the Pyramids; nothing like Spiritual + all government civic options.

 

[Jimb0b]

Monarch/Normal 1903AD Conquest/Domination.

~400 BC

Spoiler :

Alot of plains around . Settled the Cow/Rice/Crab site first for a gp farm. Met Willem and settled my next two cities to the north to block him in with the help of those peaks. Other AI's were a long way away. Built Stonehenge in my GP city (oops - wasn't expecting to actually get it). Willem went into war mode but it came to nothing.

~600 AD

Spoiler :

Elephant/Catapults to take out Willem, Wasn't sure if i'd built enough but turned out he barely had any defences and only lost a couple of units. He went down easily, Some nice green land to cottage. Switched to Judaism to keep the rest of the AI's happy.

~1500AD

Spoiler :

Beelined Communism for State Property, Watermilled a few cities for some pretty awesome production. AI's were still miles behind so I just took my time and went for nukes/bio/assembly line etc. Built/bought mass ICBM's.

~1850AD

Spoiler :

Nuked Gilgamesh first, Finally met his neighbour Boudica by nuking him, He capped easily enough, Boudica followed the turn after. Had to build some tanks to take on Hannibal as he'd vassaled to Sitting Bull after Stalin took a couple of his cities. He didn't break free after losing most of his cities so I just wiped him out, Sitting Bull capped easily enough after that. Stalin was just another one turn war.

 

[Tadzio]

4000-1000BC Noble/Normal

Spoiler :

I went Agriculture > Hunting > Fishing > BW > Pottery > Mysticism > Meditation > Priesthood > Writing.

After I successfully chopped the Oracle, I chose Code of Laws, then I took Animal Husbandry and Alphabet. Once Alphabet was completed I traded Priesthood to van Oranje for Archery. I'm currently teching Currency.

My Scout was killed by a barb pretty early, so although I think Oranje is to my east, I'm not certain. I should probably make a new scout, but I'm being lazy since I see plenty of land I want to settle. I have 3 cities so far. My second city looks like a good production city. I'm pretty sure I won't be going to war before rifling, but I'm not even sure I'll go to war then. Simply don't have enough info about my surroundings yet. After Currency finishes I'll flip a coin and either go into aesthetics (culture), or civil service (conquest). Advice would be appreciated.

As always, criticism is welcome.

 

[drlake]

Interesting map to play! No screenies, but Monarch/Epic to 600BC:

Spoiler :

Met Willem on turn 14, due North. Lots of brown land between us, and in the area. That, combined with all the open area nearby and the Stone just out of my BFC screamed "GW!" to me. I haven't been building it, so I did this game, out on turn 90.

Met Hannibal on turn 30 way to the West, Sitting Bull on turn 87 somewhere south of Hannibal, and Stalin turn 91 down that way as well. Then my scout died, and I haven't tried to get another one out that way. Lots of crap land between me and Hannibal, with big mountain chains blocking the continent to the SW.

Hannibal founded Buddhism, and Willem to Confucionism. I'll convert to Confucionism, since that's the only religion in my empire to date.

I've got four cities, and two settlers built or in progress. One city is the Copper/Corn/Cow site, one is the Wheat/Ivory/Wine site between me and Willem, one is getting the Horses and Rice to my NE. I'm going to settle a blocking city due W to block off Hannibal and whoever else is down that way, and settle the Sugar/Gold/seafood site to my East.

I'm roughly tied as the tech leader. Tech path was Agr > BW > Hunting > Fishing > Archery > AH > Pottery > Writing > Mysticism > Alphabet. Traded for Sailing, Meditation, Priesthood, IW, maybe one more. Currently working on HBR, then will probably go Aesthetics for trade bait. Might rethink that and work on Monarchy, too.

The Oracle hasn't been built, so I'm seeing if I can chop it out. Not sure what I'll take if I get it. Maybe Metal Casting to get some Mints out.

No plans for wars atm. Willem is largely bottled up, with me covering his South and barbs infesting the area to his SW. I'll leave him until I've got Cats, and then take him.

On demographics, I'm in the 2-4 range on most aspects so doing OK. I'll have two more cities shortly, and will pump out some more troops to level up on the barbs.

That's about it, good start so far.

 

[dalamb]

I'll be doing noble, epic, as usual (probably along with never finishing, as usual). Since Fishing and Agriculture both useful for the starting city, and having all the pottery prereqs makes it faster to research, I was figuring BW > (fish+ag in some order) > pottery. I'm wondering if hunting (2nd AH prereq) > AH > archery makes sense after that? OTOH going for priesthood and the oracle for MC is very tempting.

Worker > workboat > warrior or worker > warrior > workboat, depending on when fishing is available. I'll try to remember to chop a second worker quickly; I usually don't make enough workers.

How close does a neighbour have to be to make a skirmisher rush make sense? (I realize one answer might be "never try a skirmisher rush if horses or copper are nearby"). Edit: well, well, there's a recent thread on this subject. Apparently skirmisher rush does make sense at many difficulty levels.

Edit:

Spoiler query on tech order after settling Timbuktu :

I settled in place, and noticed I can have fishing in 8 turns at epic while working the floodplain; this suggests fishing first while starting either worker or warrior, switching to workboat at turn 7; working the clams will give +1 and +2 over working the floodplain. Any recommendations? I'm guessing this strategy means warrior first to grow a bit since the worker will appear in fewer turns once the workboat is done.

 

[dirtyparrot]

Decided to give this a go on Immortal/Normal:

Spoiler :

4000BC - 1AD:

I settled in place.

Build order: worker > warrior > warrior > Settler > skirmisher > skirmisher > skirmisher... (I could be wrong here)
Tech order: Ag > Hunting > AH > Archery > Masonry > Sailing > BW > Mysticism (note: popped fishing and pottery, hadn't realized that huts were on).

I build my 2nd city to secure the stone. And completed the Pyramids in 1040BC (settled the GE that I got). I then built my 3rd towards the north to block WvO (who was the closest guy around). I fully expected for WvO to expand towards the south and was ready to concede the Marble city and the Ivory city to him, but he never did. By the time it was 1AD, he was still at 3 cities. Later on, when I had fully explored his territory I realized that he got shafted by his start. His only food resource was the clams, but he was 1 tile off the coast. At least he's got some nice religions that he founded ( ).

Spoiler :

So, the amount of land that people are going to have to play with, I'm sure that most people are going to find that this game will be relatively easy.

Some Screenies:

Spoiler :

1AD - 1000AD:

I started to spam cities. The scarcity of food didn't allow me to run too many specialists, but I'll make do with the ones I've got and the happiness for my big cities. Plus, it comforting knowing that the AI's weren't blessed with a lot of food either (as one of the next screenshots will show). So, the tech rate has been pretty slow for everyone.

I built SoZ in one of my bordering cities with Willem for culture. Completed TGL in Timbuktu in 500AD. Over the course of the game, I captured 3 barb cities and a couple of workers. I cemented my block of WvO even further.

I founded Taoism thanks to a bulb from my 1st GS. Built an academy with the 2nd and built NE in Timbuktu, so I expect to get some more. I've decided to take out WvO with cats/maces soon. I building my force together.

I also got Hannibal to pleased thanks to gifting him a junk city, which will probably anger Stalin for close borders a bit more.

Screenies:

Spoiler :

 

[chalsdk]

Spoiler :

Starting is oki, flood plains is not great and all, I just like more health and less flood plains, but its good, wantet to get the stones inside my first city, but that turned out to be hard..

For some reason I like grassland much more then plains.. the 1 food is so much needed..

I am on Immortal.. cant get it higher.. immortal I offen die as well..

This is a bit laiter.. main problems is that I do not have 1.5 worker pr city wich I find needed in most cases, I just had 3, quite bad..

and end at 25bc.. I just fell I get way behind..
http://rcpt.yousendit.com/851303969/10d4ab8cb876ae4ab63fa53f5e5c883b

well what to you think?

 

[dalamb]

@chalsdk: please, please, put your report in spoilers! Thanks!

Initial thoughts.

Looking for comments on my dotmap, just after chop/whipping my first settler:

Spoiler :

I settled in place and followed the idea in my initial post: fishing first while building a warrior, then switch to workboat, all while working a floodplain. Working the clams then let me build a worker while getting good commerce for teching. After fishing, BW > Agriculture > Pottery to get cottages and granaries quickly, then hunting > AH to find horses and camp the ivory, then archery for skirmishers. I did remember to chop/whip a 2nd worker before moving on to other things, like a granary.

I was enormously lucky with huts and events:

• 2850 BC: guess an axe rush might be called for, instead of skirmishers.
  
  
• 2725 BC: a production boost in the capital
  
  
• 2625 BC: I guess I can try oracle'ing something else, maybe even Civil Service.
  
  
• 2350 BC: another boost, plus even better city attackers.
  
  

Here's most of my known world, with a guess at a dotmap. Stalin is off to the southwest, and you can see Willem to the north; either might be about to send off his own settler shortly.

On the basis of "settle towards the enemy" I think I have to pick the two northern cities first. Light blue seems highest priority, in order to get horses. Yellow is next for copper -- not so necessary except for accelerating some wonders, given the iron in the BFC. After that I'm not sure between white and red, though the latter for stone seems more important than the former for blocking Willem (which might not be possible anyway, since he'll get his first settler out before my 3rd, I imagine, and he might even take yellow away from me. I think I can safely postpone magenta for a bit given how close it is, but surely I want its gold before too long! Light green (far east) will have to wait until I explore further in that direction. Not sure which are the best production cities; Yellow just has corn and a flood plain, while Magenta and Red just have one food source each.

Here's Timbuktu, about to whip the first settler and follow with his skirmisher. One worker is mining a hill, the other the iron. Health isn't a problem yet, but it will get worse if I chop the rest of the forests.

I'm now researching Polytheism, aiming for Priesthood and the oracle, likely followed by writing. If I take the oracle I might go for Code of Laws if nobody has it yet, or possibly Math or Alphabet. With this FIN start and the luck with huts, I may be far ahead of the competition, so perhaps Alphabet is less important than Math despite its higher cost. Also, I expect to need an aqueduct in the capital before too terribly long.

I expect to take out Willem as soon as practical. Stalin is a bit far -- he's going to have to wait until after CoL if I go after him at all.

Advice welcome.

 

[dirtyparrot]

Played a bit more.

Until 1500AD Immortal/Normal:

Spoiler :

Not a huge amount to discuss. I kept building my invasion force of maces and cats. In 1230AD, I DOWed Willem with 9 maces and 10 cats. I decided that it wasn't worth it to waste EP points on him, which probably cost me a few more cats and some maces. WvO was nice enough to found 3 religions for me (so I have 4 total). During the course of the game I popped 2 Great Prophets, so I used them for a couple shrines. By 1450AD WvO was mercifully put down. Screenies of the action in the spoiler below:

Spoiler :

Other than wiping out the Dutch, I kept settling cities to the East. I met the other 2 AI's who are Buddhist and have built the AP.

I was the 1st to Liberalism and choose to take Astronomy. I was able to open inter-continental trade routes and settle an island city near Boudica. I also decided that why no help the food poor AI's by pumping out a few privateers for blockades and XP. I lost a promoted full-strength privateer to a caravel (3% odds), which has been in keeping with the odds I have been getting the entire game.

I think that the next order of business is to vassal either Stalin or Hanny (who aren't that powerful). Then I'll vassal the remaining one and use them to help to wipe out Sitting Bull (who won't be missed by anyone).

I've also popped a Great Merchant and I'm going to save him for Sid Sushi (esp given the food situation of this map). At the present moment, 19 have 19 cities in total (with a couple settlers ready just in case).

Some more screenies:

Spoiler :

I haven't yet decided on a tech path. I don't feel like chasing SoL in the middle of a war or a troop buildup. I have just started building up my cannons (plus I have a dozen cats/trebs left over). I'll probably draft rifles while teching to Assembly Line or RR (for MG's) (although I don't think that I've unlocked GT yet ). Obviously Biology is a priority with the amount of farm that I have. I'm all ears for suggestion, although I don't feel like going for another wimpy and boring space victory.

 

[duckstab]

To 320 BC, Noble/Epic w/ BUG 4.3

View attachment Ducka Staba BC-0320.CivBeyondSwordSave

Spoiler :

This has been fun so far. I went Agriculture->Fishing->Hunting->Pottery->BW->Archery->Writing as planned, then Priesthood. Chopped/whipped the Oracle and took Metal Casting. Haven't actually used it to build a Mint yet but I also managed to get a Library in my capital, ran two scientists, and the GP point boost from the Oracle got me a Great Scientist very early. Normally I'd use my first GS for an Academy but decided to bulb Mathematics instead for the chopping boost. After hooking up the Stone I was able to get the Pyramids for an early switch to Representation.

After Priesthood I headed towards Monotheism because Judaism hadn't been founded. Only a couple turns into it somebody, I'm pretty sure WvO, founded it. I decided to gamble on CoL, which was over 20 turns away, but with the strong growth and cottaging in my capital I think I got to it a lot sooner. Founded Confucianism and converted. After CoL I backfilled several techs very quickly.

Since I went for the Pyramids my expansion and military have suffered. A few barb warriors have shown up but I had a spare Skirmisher to deal with them. Hannibal is my main concern because his power rating dwarfs mine and he and WvO are both Hindu. If Hinduism does spread to me I will convert to it because I don't want to go to war until late in the game, if at all.

Also I lost my initial Warrior to a barb and have not yet had a chance to replace him with a Scout, so my view of the world is much more limited than I would like at this point.

So the plan for now is: Workers, Settlers, and military. No more wonders until I feel more secure, though I'd like to grab Shwedagon Paya next.

P.S. Is there some obscure piece of code that ensures that when you play a Financial leader the game will match you up against a couple other Financials? In my last game as WvO I ended up against Hannibal, HC, and Ragnar...

 

[TheMeInTeam]

More tectonics plains spam. Thankfully, we're given a good capitol.

IMM/Normal

1 AD

Spoiler :

Settled in place. AG ---> fishing ---> BW (hut) ---> pottery ----> masonry ----AH...then I think sailing/writing for open borders. I do believe I slipped in archery somewhere after pottery or so too, I do recall getting it somewhat early to put the super UU out there early.

I opted to build pyramids and got them before 1100 BC but after founding 3 cities ---> stone is good. I opened borders with the AIs ASAP to get them to switch into missionary mode in an attempt to convert me (which never happened). This was important, because willem, stalin, and hannibal wound up with differing religions. Stalin tangled with bull, not much else at this point. Blocking north to keep willem from going to our NE is a pretty obvious move.

And the tech picture:

Plan at this point was exploration for more resources and settling all the sites available (we have stupid amounts of land available to us, although a lot of it is plains-filled, yuck).

1060 AD Liberalism

Spoiler :

I had my copper/cow city run constant unit spam (after moving spam settler to another city), first skirmishers, then maces, then muskets. I used other cities to fill in while I continued to just build infra in the capitol. Rep/bur/slave/default (want merc)/FR post-lib. The tech picture at lib looks very nice: the AI are not handling the script well. Sitting bull is quite large but backwards. Stalin/hannibal are decent size too. I decide to chase the economics merchant to deny it to the AI, and then head to rifles (safety) and biology (economy boom).

I took printing press because I've been settling or GA rather than bulbing, and the AI has nationalism already but not PP. I did NOT want to delay lib ---> FR made sense for me in this game with tons of and the 10% research, so PP looked the best course despite that I normally bulb it with a GS. Capitol is ~2/3 my BPT by the way.

1840 AD Diplomation

Spoiler :

Holy crap! I get an unexpected DoW (I refused a demand yes, but he had other enemies and was in no shape to actually beat me). But the AI saw that I was below his power threshold, so the refusal = sneak attack DoW I guess. Just one problem for sitting cow:

He needs better units. He gets absolutely mauled and pays me gold/map for peace.

From there I just continue on to bio, medicine, assembly line, combustion, industrialism, flight.

I have access to tanks by the late 1600's, on a map where the AI's tech pace is piss poor outside of willem. Uh oh.

Sitting bull declares on me INSTANTLY (like as soon as I said no) for refusing another demand, right as I start building tanks. In come his knights, muskets, trebs . I capture the 2 cities near me, shredding his units badly, then take cease fire. I want to hit hannibal (going very very slow culture but teching assembly line) and Stalin first. Well, Stalin had other plans...

So that saves some effort (peacevassal garbage).

Hannibal still had rifles/cavalry. I stripped defenses with 12 fighters and then attacked with tanks (I had a morale medic III musket with them). I take 1 city and nearly a 2nd, hannibal caps. I declare war on sitting bull, take 1 city, caps.

Meanwhile, back home I'll show a glimpse of why bio is so important on maps like this:

That's a filler junk city I settled just before bio. Nothing but plains and forests and a single iron. No food at all, except for the bio farms which are quite a lot by now. Of course a lot of my other cities were even better, but this one got the job done too.

Willem was actually ahead of me in tech! However, he was very very far behind in production, and despite being ahead in tech (things like rocketry, plastics, etc), he didn't have any military units to deal with tanks/fighters other than his own tanks and fighters, with a tiny sliver of the #'s and weaker promotions. Game over willem.

While curb-stomping my continent I finished the mass media path after flight (while spreading mining inc) and built the UN. With only gilgamesh and a small boudica free, it was an easy vote:

Final civics were rep, FS (but only for the last 5 turns after I stopped making tanks, before that vassalage!), eman, environmentalism, FR.

With willem out of the picture and having industrialism, plastics, and almost computers on gilgamesh, I could have won any victory condition I wanted . UN was the fastest way to close the blowout though, so I used it. End game stats:

Nice K/D, I am used to fighting with a tech hole, so I know how the units work in reverse quite well. Scr00d AIs.

Someone willing to put forth more effort could easily crush the continent with cuirassers or cavalry on immortal...the AI was very slow getting to rifling. I don't get to tanks much though so I thought that would be fun.