Nolition's CivIII Chronicle (Now Playing Game 3: Maya, Emperor)

[vmxa]

"Will I still be able to build the Military Academy even though my army is dead?"

I would have prefered that you did not abandon Tatung as it is never going to be a going concern. Better set it to size 1 and a beaker head. Then use that settler to make another town in the desert, pack them in there. You can abandon towns later, when you are in a stronger position. By going to CxxC or CxC in desert you can A prevent barb camp and B troops can help cover other towns. The move 3 tiles on roads and get to the next to to help fight.

I would not have tried to take that town back with a yellow MI army. Remember they will attack that town and your army would be nearly dead at the start as you had no units to help defend that town. Better to regroup and not lose that army. It is a major blow. It is the only thing you had that may be able to take down those def 4 defenders of the Dutch. Even that army will be hard pressed to kill them, especially with only three units.

 

[vmxa]

The MA can be built, if you had a army win a battle and have the tech. I never tried to make it after losing my army, but the way it reads, you should be able to do it.

Easy to check, once you get MT. Did you make the Heroic small wonder? It is useful with all the fighting you have.

 

[tjs282]

I'm not totally sure if I understand the ethnicity aspect of this game. If I produce workers out of a city with a foreign ethnicity, will they be these half-effective slave workers? How does the game determine which ethnicity to remove from the population in a town if it's a mix?

As far as I can tell, at least one rule is that in a mixed-nationality town, any newly built Workers will be your nationality first -- but it may rather be as simple as 'most recently born citizen'. Either way, that's why I would rather prevent a captured town from re-growing before it's down to Pop1 (and/or the parent civ is dead).

I do remember once trying to MM captured towns so that the foreigners were doing all the Specialist work (i.e. 'surplus to requirements'), but it didn't make any difference: newly-built Workers were still drawn from my working joes.

I believe you can't conscript Units(Foreign), either, but I also seem to remember reading somewhere that (Industrial) whip-rushing govs will preferentially target foreigners for whipping, although (presumably) you won't be allowed to whip a captured a town until it's out of resistance.

Had some real long turns on sid, with over 800 attackers hitting my beach head town on the IBT. Go get some snacks and come back to see, if the town fell or not.

Erk! Remind me never to try playing on Sid...

I decide to buy that Embassy. The Dutch are not willing to go to war, no matter what.

You have to be at war yourself already, before any AI will be willing to sign an MA with you.

Will I still be able to build the Military Academy even though my army is dead?

Yes. But it costs 400 shields (as do any Armies you build from it), which is a lot of unit-equivalents prior to Industrialization/Factories. Better at this stage to build more vet Maces/LBMs (maybe Trebs/Cannon), and get more Armies from MGLs if/where possible.

And now you're at war with the Dutch, try and sign up the Hittites and/or Korea to help you (better with you than against you!) -- the Dutch attack-stack is mostly at (or heading towards) your end of the continent, so their towns are going to be relatively poorly defended from a neighbour's backstab.

You can either sign an MA (try to pay their price on a per-turn basis, if possible -- you may need to lower your SCI%-slider) or, seeing as you have Dutch units on your borders already, you could even try asking for an MPP (even though you don't have Nationalism yet, the Koreans do -- and the Hittites as well?).

If you sign an MA(s) and your 'ally(s)' signs peace with the Dutch before the MA has run its full 20 turns, they will break their deal with you, freeing you to sign peace with the Dutch as well. And if you DoW Wang and/or Mursi (in retaliation for their 'betrayal' ), you might even try tying that Dutch PT to an MA against your former 'ally(s)', which will mean that once Willy signs peace with them, he's back at war with you (but hopefully a lot more weakened).

If you sign an MPP and the Dutch sign a PT with them before your MPP expires, then the next Dutch attack on you should immediately reactivate their war(s).

Good luck.

EDIT for X-post

I would have prefered that you did not abandon Tatung as it is never going to be a going concern. Better set it to size 1 and a beaker head. Then use that settler to make another town in the desert, pack them in there.

He still hasn't got irrigation to his core-towns, and that's essential to improve his pop-numbers/ shield-output. Sucks that the Dutch spannered him before he finished getting that job done in the first place.

And Tatung's Hill represents the shortest irrigation-route (or he could have planted the Settler on a Jungle, but either way, he needed a Settler).

And seriously, planting CxC in the middle of an imminent (and now actual) warzone? That's just more towns for the Celts (or now, the Dutch) to gobble/raze.

 

[vmxa]

Lurker:

"He still hasn't got irrigation to his core-towns, and that's essential to improve his pop-numbers/ shield-output."

Sure, how does it relate to what I said and this response? BTW how was the move accomplished? Did you abandon and then move the settler to the new site? If so even more production was lost. If you need to do that move at that time and I say you don't, the way to do it is to have the settler on the site and then abandon.

For sure you cannot build towns of any type or spacing while that area is a potential war zone. This needed to be done, prior to the war or after. My point is that land is crap and trying to build it up to be productive is not going to win the game. Having more towns doing something is better than fewer towns doing next to nothing and draining gold for support of unit(s) to do MP duty. You have no water, no food bonus, so how long will it take to get them to city size and at what cost?

You spend a settler to move a town that takes a good tile from a city for a town that is not going to be much better than it already was and that presumes you get water. The water may have to wait till electricity. That is, if you make it that long.

In this game food is nice, but shields are king. You need shields to make units and you need units to survive. You need gold to pay for the units. One way to reduce that cost is to have more towns and get any town you can to city size as quickly as you can.

Getting them to city size cannot be sped up, without food or a camp to endlessly crank out workers to add to the towns. You cannot even add workers in some places as they cannot grow enough food to feed them. In a more or less constant war game, I want no wide spacing, unless I have 2 and 3 move units. I must be able to have one town help defend another town.

This cannot be done with 1 move units for towns CXXXC or wider. You have too many tiles to go and too many tiles to try to defend. Here I mean units pillaging.

The CxC towns get no structures and need no MP for happiness. They do not grow, the lone citizen is a beakerhead.
Later you can abandon it. Of course it needs defenders, should it come under attack, but it is not intended to
be a front line town.

If you have a river or two and peace for a a few score of turns, then by all means use better locations and placement. Just not under such stressful conditions as no water, no food bonus, behind in techs and war after war.
Just my perspective and I could be all wrong.

 

[Nolition]

I would not have tried to take that town back with a yellow MI army. Remember they will attack that town and your army would be nearly dead at the start as you had no units to help defend that town. Better to regroup and not lose that army. It is a major blow. It is the only thing you had that may be able to take down those def 4 defenders of the Dutch. Even that army will be hard pressed to kill them, especially with only three units.

That was indeed a very costly tactical error. I had no realistic chance of holding that city long-term and sacrificed the army for essentially nothing.

As far as I can tell, at least one rule is that in a mixed-nationality town, any newly built Workers will be your nationality first -- but it may rather be as simple as 'most recently born citizen'. Either way, that's why I would rather prevent a captured town from re-growing before it's down to Pop1 (and/or the parent civ is dead).

I do remember once trying to MM captured towns so that the foreigners were doing all the Specialist work (i.e. 'surplus to requirements'), but it didn't make any difference: newly-built Workers were still drawn from my working joes.

I believe you can't conscript Units(Foreign), either, but I also seem to remember reading somewhere that (Industrial) whip-rushing govs will preferentially target foreigners for whipping, although (presumably) you won't be allowed to whip a captured a town until it's out of resistance.

I will keep all of this in mind. I didn't think too much about depopulating (as routine) upon capturing cities, but I'm coming around to the idea. There is more ethnic management rules than I would have thought, but maybe whipping/starving to run specialists is more productive. Especially if it reduces these pesky city flips. Those citizens aren't really productive anyway, as they're always so unhappy that I have to run entertainers.

You have to be at war yourself already, before any AI will be willing to sign an MA with you.

I didn't realize, oops.

On New Tatung: I don't know what the optimal move here was, but ended up irrigating along the northern coast instead of using that route. What happens if the AI pillages one of the tiles in the irrigation chain?

BTW how was the move accomplished? Did you abandon and then move the settler to the new site? If so even more production was lost. If you need to do that move at that time and I say you don't, the way to do it is to have the settler on the site and then abandon.

The settler was built in Tatung, and I chose to abandon the city and step the settler onto the hill and found New Tatung in that location.

For sure you cannot build towns of any type or spacing while that area is a potential war zone. This needed to be done, prior to the war or after. My point is that land is crap and trying to build it up to be productive is not going to win the game. Having more towns doing something is better than fewer towns doing next to nothing and draining gold for support of unit(s) to do MP duty. You have no water, no food bonus, so how long will it take to get them to city size and at what cost?

The land is pretty bad. Wouldn't the MP be cost-neutral, because you gain +1 allowance for each size1 city and only 1 MP is beneficial in a city in republic? Of course, more than 1 unit is required to hold the city during wartime.

Writeup:

Spoiler Part 8 (hidden for quick page load) :

Time to get to work on the diplomacy. I start by establishing an embassy with the Hittites.



They are willing to go to war. At this point, it's desperation. I agree.



I figure that I can use all of the allies that I can get.



Richborough is captured by his lone Cavalry.



And so is Kuara. Things are not looking good.



I decide to establish an embassy with the Celts as well.



I figure it's time to go for broke. It's now the entire world against the Dutch. Let's see if I can get through this with the AIs (hopefully) absorbing the brunt of his forces.



This really isn't imminently useful, but I will take it. The truly unfortunate thing about this conflict is that it's torpedoed my research rate. I was up to 80% spending before it broke out, and now I am limping to the final few techs I need to advance.



I did manage to double-team his cavalry with MI, and retake Richborough. He's been dropping longbowmen, but there have not been cavalry reinforcements since I recruited my allies.

 

[vmxa]

"Wouldn't the MP be cost-neutral, because you gain +1 allowance for each size1 city and only 1 MP is beneficial in a city in republic? Of course, more than 1 unit is required to hold the city during wartime."

It would be for that town, but if it was a scrub town and needed no MP, it would be cost positive. That is the key. Not to have a few no deficit towns, but rather if they are just a very poor town, make them a plus. Three of those could add 9 beakers, till you can make them profitable the old fashion way. Not to mention easier to defend. Trying to build them up will cost more than MP support as players tend to start building libs and courts and temples. This takes many scores of turns in a 1 net shield town. So shields are going up in smoke and maint for structures is increasing and your net is negative for a long time.

 

[need my speed]

Would the AI have attacked Entremont if Nolition hadn't moved his army out of it, I wonder? You can see that he did so, here:

 

[tjs282]

On New Tatung: I don't know what the optimal move here was, but ended up irrigating along the northern coast instead of using that route. What happens if the AI pillages one of the tiles in the irrigation chain?

Nothing, apart from that one pillaged tile ceasing to produce as much food as it did. An irrigated tile counts as a 'freshwater source' in itself, so as long as there's irrigation in an adjacent tile, you can irrigate the next tile — the channel doesn't need to remain continuous all the way back to the original freshwater source. Which means you can also irrigate to a Plains tile via an ordinary Grass tile, continue to irrigate onwards from the Plains, and then go back and mine the Grass tile.

Irrigation-chaining is (yet) another of the stupid-dumb things about Civ3 that we just conveniently ignore because "gameplay trumps realism"; e.g. 'realism' would have restricted irrigation to a max. 1-2 tiles from the nearest river (but would also have made rivers more common on any map), and max. 1 tile from a freshwater lake (or used the lake's size as a base for the total number of tiles that could be irrigated by it, e.g. 2-3 tiles irrigable per lake tile).

('Realism' would also have had Jungle slash'n'burn down to Plains rather than Grassland, IMHO...)

only 1 MP is beneficial in a city in republic?

Assuming that 'MP' = military police, then no, Republic does not give any MP-induced contentment/benefit — and yes, if you garrison a unit in that Pop1 town, it's not out there defending your borders/ repelling your boarders, so your net benefit (at least as far as your military goes) is zero.

Would the AI have attacked Entremont if Nolition hadn't moved his army out of it, I wonder? You can see that he did so, here:

Yes, probably they would. The AI targets cities in preference to units, and the Dutch had been moving units towards Entremont for multiple turns, as shown by the stacks of foot-units in that screenie, so a DoW was likely imminent anyway.

But now the Dutch are being assaulted from all sides if they were buying their Salt and/or Horses then they've already lost those Resources — and even if they had their own, they will likely lose them shortly to pillagement by enemy Cavs, so their fast advance against Sumeria should be stopped in its tracks. And their Rifles and SMercs should also take down quite a few of your Allies' Cavs/Rifles, into the bargain.

A couple of tips on winning friends and influencing people, though. When you ask "What would you need for ...?", never assume that the first price quoted is the minimum — most AI-Leaders' initial price-demands can be reduced by at least 10-15% and still be acceptable ("You've got to haggle for it!"). Also, whenever a prospective trade-partner wants a lump-sum as part-payment for any per-turn deal (including MAs), I don't give it to them if I can help it. First I take it off the table: if that drops the deal to 'doubtful', then I divide that lump-sum by 20 (turns), and add that fraction (assuming I can afford it) to the per-turn payment, rounding down if possible (or up if necessary). That way, if (or more likely when!) they break the deal, they've got no up-front benefit from it; and even if the deal runs the full 20 turns, the per-turn payment will — or should — represent a progressively smaller slice of my total income/economy per turn, as my Civ grows over that same period.

e.g. You had an income of 150+ GPT when you hired Mursi's muscle: no need to give him 31 gold for 'free', when he might rather have (waived that reduction, or) accepted 1-2 GPT more on the per-turn schedule. (I might also have asked what he wanted for Horses, bought them as a separate deal, and started building Knights everywhere — ready for upgrading to Cavs once I got MilTrad and some Salt to go with it...)

 

[CommandoBob]

One more reason to use gold per turn on your Military Alliances is that the AI are a bit more inclined to fight on your side when you pay them. Several times I have had MAs expire at the end of their 20 turns and the war of the AIs kept on going, as long as the cash was flowing.

I am not saying that the AI vs AI war was a pretty thing to behold. But as long as my allies keep my enemy distracted, it works in my favor.

Ideally, offer the AI gold-per-turn first and hope they will agree. Next offer a resource for 20 turns, followed by a luxury for 20 turns. Tech should be the last thing to offer for an MA, since once the AI has the tech, well, do they still want the war?

But if the chips are down, do what you must.

I have also seen that if you get many people to gang up on one AI, somebody will enjoy themselves so much that they will keep their war going after the MA ends. And sometimes they will take down that AI, too, and even bring other AIs who dropped out back into the fray, usually with Mutual Protection Pacts. Really nice when it is your biggest rival and happens on the other side of the world.

 

[vmxa]

Lurker:
Hi Commando,
The only thing I worry about in bringing in others, rare for me, is that one will do too well and become much stronger. For sure I hate give more than one lux to any one civ, that helps them too much. Like Bob said, you may have to do things you rather not at times.

 

[vmxa]

Edit:
Here is an old pix of one of the civs, see the 941 infantry. Some 2000 units. This is what happens, when you get to the last few islands. They just build till they hit max support for free and what they can pay for.

 

[Nolition]

"Wouldn't the MP be cost-neutral, because you gain +1 allowance for each size1 city and only 1 MP is beneficial in a city in republic? Of course, more than 1 unit is required to hold the city during wartime."

It would be for that town, but if it was a scrub town and needed no MP, it would be cost positive. That is the key. Not to have a few no deficit towns, but rather if they are just a very poor town, make them a plus. Three of those could add 9 beakers, till you can make them profitable the old fashion way. Not to mention easier to defend. Trying to build them up will cost more than MP support as players tend to start building libs and courts and temples. This takes many scores of turns in a 1 net shield town. So shields are going up in smoke and maint for structures is increasing and your net is negative for a long time.

Oh, yeah. If the towns are close enough they don't need their own garrison with 3 movement on roads. Then there is indeed a positive effect on the unit allowance. I see. Would it be better to just build wealth and let them just stagnate at low size and productivity, just taking the benefit from research?

Would the AI have attacked Entremont if Nolition hadn't moved his army out of it, I wonder? You can see that he did so, here:

I had assumed that they would have, which was what led to my decision. I figured it was better for my MI to be attacking cavalry, instead of letting the cavalry attack into my army.

Nothing, apart from that one pillaged tile ceasing to produce as much food as it did. An irrigated tile counts as a 'freshwater source' in itself, so as long as there's irrigation in an adjacent tile, you can irrigate the next tile — the channel doesn't need to remain continuous all the way back to the original freshwater source. Which means you can also irrigate to a Plains tile via an ordinary Grass tile, continue to irrigate onwards from the Plains, and then go back and mine the Grass tile.

Irrigation-chaining is (yet) another of the stupid-dumb things about Civ3 that we just conveniently ignore because "gameplay trumps realism"; e.g. 'realism' would have restricted irrigation to a max. 1-2 tiles from the nearest river (but would also have made rivers more common on any map), and max. 1 tile from a freshwater lake (or used the lake's size as a base for the total number of tiles that could be irrigated by it, e.g. 2-3 tiles irrigable per lake tile).

I would never have guessed this was how it worked. This is quite interesting, though. I will always remember the time in Civ4 where I broke my irrigation chain by cottaging and then lost all of the freshwater benefits. Would it be beneficial to go and re-mine some of the grasslands in my central core that I irrigated just to get the fresh water into the desert?

A couple of tips on winning friends and influencing people, though. When you ask "What would you need for ...?", never assume that the first price quoted is the minimum — most AI-Leaders' initial price-demands can be reduced by at least 10-15% and still be acceptable ("You've got to haggle for it!"). Also, whenever a prospective trade-partner wants a lump-sum as part-payment for any per-turn deal (including MAs), I don't give it to them if I can help it. First I take it off the table: if that drops the deal to 'doubtful', then I divide that lump-sum by 20 (turns), and add that fraction (assuming I can afford it) to the per-turn payment, rounding down if possible (or up if necessary). That way, if (or more likely when!) they break the deal, they've got no up-front benefit from it; and even if the deal runs the full 20 turns, the per-turn payment will — or should — represent a progressively smaller slice of my total income/economy per turn, as my Civ grows over that same period.

I wasn't even thinking about it like that, and had assumed that the price they named was the lowest acceptable value. Oops. This is good to know for the next time I need to engineer a war.

How do these military alliances end? What happens if I just decide to make peace with the Dutch? Will everyone else hate me for backing out of the conflict?

One more reason to use gold per turn on your Military Alliances is that the AI are a bit more inclined to fight on your side when you pay them. Several times I have had MAs expire at the end of their 20 turns and the war of the AIs kept on going, as long as the cash was flowing.

I am not saying that the AI vs AI war was a pretty thing to behold. But as long as my allies keep my enemy distracted, it works in my favor.

Ideally, offer the AI gold-per-turn first and hope they will agree. Next offer a resource for 20 turns, followed by a luxury for 20 turns. Tech should be the last thing to offer for an MA, since once the AI has the tech, well, do they still want the war?

But if the chips are down, do what you must.

I have also seen that if you get many people to gang up on one AI, somebody will enjoy themselves so much that they will keep their war going after the MA ends. And sometimes they will take down that AI, too, and even bring other AIs who dropped out back into the fray, usually with Mutual Protection Pacts. Really nice when it is your biggest rival and happens on the other side of the world.

That's a good argument on the Tech, and you're right. A long-term war would be ideal, and hopefully some of my GPT incentives will encourage the AIs to keep fighting. And I mean - we've certainly got everyone on board. It's all versus the Dutch, at this point. And it does seem to be making a difference on the front lines of my battles.

I do not want the Hittites to conquer a bunch of Dutch territory and begin to run away even further with the game, but this was a necessary survival move for me.

Writeup:

Spoiler Part 9 (hidden for quick page load) :

Unfortunate, but I've already received a lot of help out of them. I trust that the gpt payment automatically cancels?



Good to get those gems back! I feel that the dutch are now firmly on the defensive.



If I can just get Entrement back, I can get out of this war without losing any cities.



I guess it was too much to expect them to remain at war forever.



I figure that it's more important to get out of the middle ages and then research MTrad afterwards.



Wang Kon offers this. I've never been in this position in a game before, but figure he'll only tolerate me enough to sign a pact while we have our mutual war against the Netherlands. However, I decide to see if we can negotiate a bit:



I accept these terms.



He is also now willing to supply horses and cash for iron! Wow. Now I just need saltpeter and then I will be able to build cavalry (with MTrad).



After a few turns of frankly unbelievable back and forth, Entrement is recaptured for the (hopefully) final time.

The Dutch are now willing to make peace. My big question now is: what effect will this have upon my relations with Korea, and the MPP? I am also thinking that it may be wise to wait a few turns until Magnetism so that I have some leverage to demand an Industrial Age technology for peace. He's willing to give me some advancements, and I want to make the most of the opportunity as I'm still quite far behind. And then: if I can secure saltpeter to build cavalry, should I go to war with the Celts? I want to go and wreck them, if possible. I don't like being this small.

 

[vmxa]

"I guess it was too much to expect them to remain at war forever."

Take heart, I find that as the free land is taken, they do not stay at peace for long.

You will likely never get any deal that includes gpt, if you break deals. Just hang tight and the AI probably will end their war. Then you can make peace and all is well.

 

[tjs282]

I will always remember the time in Civ4 where I broke my irrigation chain by cottaging and then lost all of the freshwater benefits.

Well that's interesting: sounds like the Civ4 designers decided that realism trumps gameplay, at least in this respect...

Would it be beneficial to go and re-mine some of the grasslands in my central core that I irrigated just to get the fresh water into the desert?

If you have towns at Pop12 and producing large amounts of excess food, then yes, mine tiles -- preferably tiles that are giving only food right now. Remember, you only 'need' 24 food per turn to support a Pop12 town (although some excess -- say 1-2 FPT -- can also be useful to prevent starvation after the pollution-producing buildings start going up)

How do these military alliances end? What happens if I just decide to make peace with the Dutch? Will everyone else hate me for backing out of the conflict?

As you've discovered, MAs end when one party or the other signs peace with the mutual foe, or after 20 turns, whichever happens first.

And as you've seen, the AI-Civs are inclined to break MAs before the 20 turns is over: I would guess that Willy suddenly found himself well behind Mursi in power, and signed peace with major concessions -- and Brennus found himself well outclassed, and signed peace by making concessions himself. But Wang is presumably still at war(?), which means that if you sign peace with Willy before he does, the MPP you signed with Korea will be triggered the next time the Dutch attack them (including Frigate-bombardment against Korean land-tiles), immediately breaking your PT with the Dutch.

Don't break per-turn deals if you can avoid it, or you will find it more expensive/ difficult/ impossible to make any more of them.

I do not want the Hittites to conquer a bunch of Dutch territory and begin to run away even further with the game, but this was a necessary survival move for me.

If that looks like happening, you could DoW the Hittites, and sign everyone up against them instead...

Unfortunate, but I've already received a lot of help out of them. I trust that the gpt payment automatically cancels?

Yes.

However, I decide to see if we can negotiate a bit:

Good work!

The Dutch are now willing to make peace. My big question now is: what effect will this have upon my relations with Korea, and the MPP? I am also thinking that it may be wise to wait a few turns until Magnetism so that I have some leverage to demand an Industrial Age technology for peace. He's willing to give me some advancements, and I want to make the most of the opportunity as I'm still quite far behind. And then: if I can secure saltpeter to build cavalry, should I go to war with the Celts? I want to go and wreck them, if possible. I don't like being this small.

Answered above. Make sure that Brennus doesn't have any MPPs active before you attack him, though.

And build at least a couple more strategically placed towns if you can: the coastal Desert SSW of New Tatung gets a Fish (so will support at least 2 Specialists), or (once the war with the Celts starts) the Forest NW of Entremont gets both of them (when Entremont gets back to Pop3, you could chop-rush a Settler from it) -- and a town on the coastal Hill SSW of Kuara will put the surrounding roads under your control, which will help to protect Verulanium and points north, and also be more difficult to take, if (for example) Mursi sneak-attacks you...

 

[Nolition]

"I guess it was too much to expect them to remain at war forever."

Take heart, I find that as the free land is taken, they do not stay at peace for long.

You will likely never get any deal that includes gpt, if you break deals. Just hang tight and the AI probably will end their war. Then you can make peace and all is well.

Yep - this is good advice. I wasn't really very clear on how military alliances functioned, but this game has cleared it up nicely. I certainly don't want them to think that I'm treacherous, or anything like that. It seems kind of underhanded to go back on gpt deals (with intent). Against the spirit of the game.

And as you say: the free land is all gone, so let's see if the AI can be incited to wage some more wars...

Well that's interesting: sounds like the Civ4 designers decided that realism trumps gameplay, at least in this respect...

It can actually be quite viciously frustrating in a certain circumstance - such as when you rely on the AIs irrigation network because it is closer than your own. And then you declare war on that AI, and their insane worker-management program starts replacing all of their tile improvements with workshops, cutting your irrigation chain.

And as you've seen, the AI-Civs are inclined to break MAs before the 20 turns is over: I would guess that Willy suddenly found himself well behind Mursi in power, and signed peace with major concessions -- and Brennus found himself well outclassed, and signed peace by making concessions himself. But Wang is presumably still at war(?), which means that if you sign peace with Willy before he does, the MPP you signed with Korea will be triggered the next time the Dutch attack them (including Frigate-bombardment against Korean land-tiles), immediately breaking your PT with the Dutch.

This seems like a very reasonable explanation of what happened. Korea is indeed still at war with the Dutch. And that MPP gives even more incentive to wait for Korea to sign the first peace treaty.

If that looks like happening, you could DoW the Hittites, and sign everyone up against them instead...

Now that I've had a taste of how the military-alliance game is played, I'm feeling a bit more enthusiastic about that plan.

And build at least a couple more strategically placed towns if you can: the coastal Desert SSW of New Tatung gets a Fish (so will support at least 2 Specialists), or (once the war with the Celts starts) the Forest NW of Entremont gets both of them (when Entremont gets back to Pop3, you could chop-rush a Settler from it) -- and a town on the coastal Hill SSW of Kuara will put the surrounding roads under your control, which will help to protect Verulanium and points north, and also be more difficult to take, if (for example) Mursi sneak-attacks you...

Yes - the last thing I need is an AI civ settling a lone city in one of those spots and claiming those fish.

Writeup - this is a big one!

Spoiler Part 10 (hidden for quick page load) :

Instead of winding down, the war continues to expand and grow. Excellent.



New Specialist City A is planted.



I get Nationalism as a free technology. Initially I was a bit disappointed, but being able to build Riflemen without saltpeter is very nice.



New Specialist City B is founded here.



The road to peace between myself and the dutch has been paved.



I went back for Military Tradition before moving onto the Industrial Age techs.



The war wasn't really accomplishing anything at this point but making me unhappy, so I took what seemed like the most useful technology that he would give me. I did find out that he occupies a tiny, two tile island off of my coast from the Territory map.



This is... a baffling turn of events that I do not understand. This would prove to have very negative effects on my game. The Celts are almost an entire age behind the behemoth Hittites, and would go on to hemorrhage territory.



While the Hittites are beginning to expand into Celtic territory, I focus on economic growth. I switched many of my builds in those specialist cities at many points throughout these turns.



Now that we no longer have our bonus relations from our shared war, the Koreans are not willing to engage in this mutual protection pact. They are also catching up in research, and are no longer the sad backwards civilization in the world.



I go for sanitation next, because I want to overcome the size-12 limit.



The military academy is finished - critical, because I think I am going to need some armies if I'm going to stand a chance of conquering the world.



I decide that I need to get in on this war before the Hittites claim all of the Celtic territory for themselves.



Thanks to significant investment in libraries + universities + some markets for happiness, my economy is no longer has horribly backwards as it has been in turnsets past. I begin researching Industrialization.



I manage to steal this one away from the Hittites. That really isn't even an exaggeration - the Hittites had been attacking it for at least two turns before I captured it myself. Meaning: I have horses of my own!



I decide that it's time to re-negotiate my deal with Korea. This is much more lucrative.



The Celts are no more. Most of their territory has gone to the Hittites, and I'm not entirely sure what to do with that. I was hoping to conquer them myself, and then move onto the Dutch. This is going to make it necessary for me to confront the Hittites sooner rather than later.



I actually begin researching Electricity here. My reasoning: I am researching at a decent rate now, but the AI civs are still ahead of me. The Theory of Education wonder would allow me to close some of that gap, and I want it badly.



Mursilis beats me to Electricity, but I am actually in a position where I can trade a technology to an AI. Miraculous! Giving up the incense stung a bit, but I thought it was worth it for a chance to get the wonder. I change my research to Scientific Method.



I conveniently have just enough shields to push out a settler, and fill some of the empty territory left by the immense gaps between the Celtic cities. This gives me a bit of "thrust" into the newly captured Hittite cities.



I transfer all the shields from my pre-build in my capital to the Theory of Evolution. But it's quite a costly wonder and is going to take longer than I'd hoped. 21 turns, at the moment. I am currently railroading a bunch of mines there and that will speed things up slightly. I'm producing 20 shields a turn but do not have a factory or hospital, which I could build pretty much immediately if I wanted to. Doing a bit of math... ToE requires 600 shields total. Factory requires 240. I have ~180 shields banked at the moment.

Plan A: Hold tight will produce ToE in 21 turns.
Plan B: Switch to factory, complete in 3 turns. Production per turn rises to 30, and then begin ToE. ToE now takes 20 turns to complete. Total turns required: 23.

EDIT: I just checked - I can rush the factory for 200 gold and get it in one turn. This is probably the optimal move, isn't it?

Now... I don't know how tight this race is going to be, but it seems like Plan B is superior. Korea and the Hittites both have Scientific Method and may be going for it already. I don't know if the AI will prioritize this wonder, and how quickly they could complete it. Should I do an investigate city espionage action in their capital to get that info?



The Dutch have just 4 cities and all other AIs have Electricity. This seemed like a harmless trade to make.

This has been an exciting set of turns that has given me some hope that I might actually have a chance to pull this off.

Note: I am flying out to finland on friday, and do not expect to be playing any civ at least until I reach germany a week later.

 

[Toxicman007]

Gotta love the AI! Korea seems to have saltpeter, but they still want to pay you 80gpt for iron!
Your empire is looking good, but I guess you have to attack the mighty Hittites next...

 

[tjs282]

Well played, sir! After a somewhat rocky start, I think you have this game in the bag as well. Still, you did say you wanted to up your level for the challenge, didn't you?

The war wasn't really accomplishing anything at this point but making me unhappy, so I took what seemed like the most useful technology that he would give me.

Useful? Hmmm... Economics increases the Shield --> Wealth conversion-ratio from 4:1 to 2:1, but that's not helpful if you're still building infrastructure/units in most core-towns (which is where the effect will be noticeable); it makes no diffference to the Wealth-output of Specialist-Farms (which only get 1 shield -> 1 gold anyway). It also lets you build Smiths (if that hasn't been done already), which can be a hugely useful Wonder even if all you've built are Harbours and Markets (it also pays the maintenance for Banks and StockExes) — provided you can afford to spend the shields on it. But right now you should probably rather be spending shields on Factories and Cavalries...

He wouldn't offer you SteamPower (or Medicine)? Either of those techs would have been my choice. Both are obligatory (unlike Econ), and Rails are super-important not just for increasing your core productivity, but also for increasing your striking-power and/or reducing military costs (because once you can move troops from one end of your empire to the other instantly, you don't need as many of them for defence, so you can commit more of them to any given campaign), and you need Med for SciMethod/ToE.

I switched many of my builds in those specialist cities at many points throughout these turns.

Be careful here! (Fully corrupt) towns destined to be pure Specialist-farms should usually get minimal/no infrastructure, because they usually can't pay the maintenance! So that means no Libs (increasing beaker output from 1.0 to '1.5' at 100% SCI%? Not worth it), no Ducts (1 gpt maintenance, then you have to deal with potential Happiness issues at Pop12, which may lead you to build a Market as well...), and no Harbours unless there is Fish/Whales available (otherwise the Harbour will support more citizens, but not more Specialists).

So what is the corruption/waste like in Kutha and Nagsu? If it's, say, ~50-60% without a Courthouse, then you should be able to use it/them as 'real' cities, i.e. building a Courthouse (to speed subsequent builds), a Duct, a Lib, a Market, etc. (disband old units, e.g. non-elite Maces, for some extra shields into these builds) — but maybe not the more expensive Industrial/ Modern buildings. Irrigated + railed Desert gives 3 food per turn, so they should quickly reach Pop12.

But if waste is already >75-80%, then even with a Courthouse, most building-investments will likely never pay off before the end of the game (this is a Small map after all). So while Kutha could use a Fishing-Harbour as a Farm, I wouldn't build a Duct there, and you'd be better off just building additional Workers/ Settlers/ Artillery (or Wealth) out of it and Nagsu.

Mursilis beats me to Electricity, but I am actually in a position where I can trade a technology to an AI. Miraculous! Giving up the incense stung a bit, but I thought it was worth it for a chance to get the wonder. I change my research to Scientific Method.

This was quite a good trade, I think, although including the Incense-export makes DoWing him problematic, since doing so will then make you a deal-breaker. But if he DoWs you, you get to keep the Incense — and your trade-rep!

But I hope you made this trade on your turn rather than his, and also traded Sanitation to anyone else who could afford it, so that Mursi couldn't profit from your hard work?

Now... I don't know how tight this race is going to be, but it seems like Plan B is superior. Korea and the Hittites both have Scientific Method and may be going for it already.

Just because they have the tech, does not mean they have started on the Wonder. You can check this by using the F7 (Wonder) screen.

And if they haven't started on it already (which they might not have, if at war — and they can't, if they've Mobilised), then you might well have a good chance at getting it yourself.

I don't know if the AI will prioritize this wonder, and how quickly they could complete it. Should I do an investigate city espionage action in their capital to get that info?

Not necessarily in their capital, unless you know that's where they're building it (and note that the AI does not always make rational/good decisions about where it starts building its Wonders!).

If/When they do start on it (or move the project to a different town), you can get a pop-up telling you so (you need to have the 'Show Wonder initiation pop-up' checkbox set in your Game Preferences: CTRL-P screen), and then you can use F7 to find out which town they're building it in. Provided you have a reasonably up-to-date Territory Map, and a good idea of their tech-progress, though, you still don't necessarily need to investigate the city building it.

If you know how big a Wonder-building town is, then by examining the tiles around it, checking its distance from their capital (to estimate waste), and taking the potential boost from a Factory and/or CoalPlant into account (can you see Pollution?), you can make an educated guess how many shields that town is getting, and therefore how many turns it will take them to build the Wonder, from the date they started it (assuming they didn't switch to it from another magaproject-in-progress, such as UniSuff or BattlefieldMed).

If even your worst-case scenario (highest shield-tiles all being worked, no waste, Factory + CoalPlant already built) still puts them (far) behind your schedule, then you probably don't need to pay to investigate the town. If you're still not sure, then yeah, do it. Investigating cities is a Diplo-job, so it's relatively inexpensive, and doesn't upset anyone. But you can't do it while at war — then you have use a Spy instead (which means you have to build the Intel Agency, and pay to plant the Spy first — which can itself cause war, if you're caught!)

 

[vmxa]

Lurker:

The ToE is a very important wonder. I would suggest waiting on Sanitation, till after you research all techs needed for it. I tend to want to get Replacement Parts first, if I can risk it. The faster workers will let you get those rails built sooner and build the wonder town up. Most will aim to be researching AT when the ToE finishes and take that and Electronics as the free techs. They are expensive techs and Hoovers comes with Electronics.

 

[Nolition]

Gotta love the AI! Korea seems to have saltpeter, but they still want to pay you 80gpt for iron!
Your empire is looking good, but I guess you have to attack the mighty Hittites next...

I was astounded that they were willing to pay through the nose for it!! Amazing.

He wouldn't offer you SteamPower (or Medicine)? Either of those techs would have been my choice. Both are obligatory (unlike Econ), and Rails are super-important not just for increasing your core productivity, but also for increasing your striking-power and/or reducing military costs (because once you can move troops from one end of your empire to the other instantly, you don't need as many of them for defence, so you can commit more of them to any given campaign), and you need Med for SciMethod/ToE.

I did try to get them, even delaying peace by 5 turns or so in order to see if I could offer cash to push him over the edge. No-go, unfortunately.

Be careful here! (Fully corrupt) towns destined to be pure Specialist-farms should usually get minimal/no infrastructure, because they usually can't pay the maintenance! So that means no Libs (increasing beaker output from 1.0 to '1.5' at 100% SCI%? Not worth it), no Ducts (1 gpt maintenance, then you have to deal with potential Happiness issues at Pop12, which may lead you to build a Market as well...), and no Harbours unless there is Fish/Whales available (otherwise the Harbour will support more citizens, but not more Specialists).

Ah, yes. I'm still having a bit of difficulty with how to use these corruption-riddled towns. I was thinking that the courthouse would decrease commerce corruption enough to get the 1 gpt maintenance back.

This was quite a good trade, I think, although including the Incense-export makes DoWing him problematic, since doing so will then make you a deal-breaker. But if he DoWs you, you get to keep the Incense — and your trade-rep!

But I hope you made this trade on your turn rather than his, and also traded Sanitation to anyone else who could afford it, so that Mursi couldn't profit from your hard work?

A declaration from Mursi is my biggest fear at this point. He has a lot of troops fortified near my territory, so I expect that it will be coming. I did have the sense not to trade in the off-turn, but I didn't really try to sell the tech elsewhere. Oops.

Just because they have the tech, does not mean they have started on the Wonder. You can check this by using the F7 (Wonder) screen.

And if they haven't started on it already (which they might not have, if at war — and they can't, if they've Mobilised), then you might well have a good chance at getting it yourself.
Not necessarily in their capital, unless you know that's where they're building it (and note that the AI does not always make rational/good decisions about where it starts building its Wonders!).

If/When they do start on it (or move the project to a different town), you can get a pop-up telling you so (you need to have the 'Show Wonder initiation pop-up' checkbox set in your Game Preferences: CTRL-P screen), and then you can use F7 to find out which town they're building it in. Provided you have a reasonably up-to-date Territory Map, and a good idea of their tech-progress, though, you still don't necessarily need to investigate the city building it.

I had no idea that wonder screen even existed, or that any of that was really possible. Time for some investigation.

The ToE is a very important wonder. I would suggest waiting on Sanitation, till after you research all techs needed for it. I tend to want to get Replacement Parts first, if I can risk it. The faster workers will let you get those rails built sooner and build the wonder town up. Most will aim to be researching AT when the ToE finishes and take that and Electronics as the free techs. They are expensive techs and Hoovers comes with Electronics.

I was looking down that path. Is Hoover also a critical wonder that I should be pushing for? What happens if I am partially done researching a tech when the ToE finishes - will I only get 1.5 free techs in that situation? The sanitation tech has not been as useful as I'd expected, mostly because my main infrastructure projects have been to build factories, not hospitals. And my core cities are so dense that pushing them past size 12 doesn't even get them all that large.

Spoiler Part 11 (hidden for quick page load) :

The Koreans are going for it in Seoul.



Size 3? I'm not super concerned that they will beat me to it.



The worker speed is very, very nice for railroading. I begin to push down the route to Tank Armies. I do have a source of rubber, thankfully - without that, my whole plan would have had a wrench thrown into it.



The good news: Those troops positioned on my border are being diverted to the Dutch. The bad news: the Hittites are growing even larger.



I start going for Steel next.



And I answer my question from above - I get 1.5 techs out of it. Not optimal, but oh well. I'll take it, at this point.



I take Atomic Theory for the second one.



I actually change this to Combustion, thinking that it's better to push to tanks.

My current dilemma: Is it better to attack the Hittites now, while their troops are preoccupied with fighting the Dutch? Or would it be prudent to start building Armies in Ur, tech to Tanks and then send a wave of tank armies at him?

 

[vmxa]

Lurker:

Yes you gain 1.5 or whatever the remaining portion of the AT is at that time. Mind you I try to time it so I am actually researching something else and it finishes at the same time at ToE. Then when the popup comes, you select the big picture and choose AT.
Now you gain full value. I did not mention that as I did not want to confuse things for you.