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Non-Incan Deity BC Space

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Anysense, Apr 3, 2021.

  1. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    I has been said that the Inca is so overpowered that other civs are not competitive. This is certainly true for Conquest/Domination games on Micro-Pangaea maps, but Space Race does not boil down to taking a few AI's capitals super early, does it? So, let us put silly superstitions aside and get to work.

    Game speed
    As far as I know even on Settler difficulty BC Space is not doable on Epic, let alone Normal or Quick. It has to be Marathon, period.

    Map size
    There had been some debate whether Huge is better than Large. I have not played Large yet and after playing Standard I doubt that Huge will better than Large. In any case, I'd rather progress gradually and play Large first.

    Choosing the map script, settings.
    It is generally agreed to be Terra vs B&S. What is better? To begin with, lets get some raw data.

    Here are average values over 100 maps
    Terra(Temperate):
    Forests 730.97
    Land tiles (green, brown and FP) 1905.88
    Sushi resources 89.92 (32.72:food:)
    Mining resources 79.08 (59.31:hammers:)

    B&S (Temperate, massive continents, tiny islands, islands mixed in):
    Forests 474.19
    Land tiles (green, brown and FP) 1347.12
    Sushi resources 155.73 (53.4:food:)
    Mining resources 71.2 (53.4:hammers:)

    I choose Temperate for both map scripts because it provides the best balance of useful tiles and forests. Cold means more forests but also more useless tundra, while Arid has fewer forests without any particular benefit.

    I tried B&S with separated island area and the result was: no circumnavigation before Astro and only 126.44 Sushi resources:thumbsdown: Snaky continents or normal islands? No, thanks.

    Average Mining was 55.43:hammers: on Standard Terra and 48.15 on Standard B&S (same settings). Does it mean that Mining is stronger on Large than on Standard? Not necesserely - 100 maps is not enough to draw conclusions. Still, I hardly ever had Mining stronger than 40-45:hammers: on smaller map sizes. In this light WastinTime's 57:hammers: does not seem like a lot of luck, its only 3.6 above the average I got.

    I counted forests unavailable pre-Astro on one of the Large/Terra maps - 257. Assuming that it is not very far from the average value we should have 730.97-257=473.97 forests available without Astronomy, this is almost exatly the amount of forests on Large/B&S:eek:

    Even Terra's advantage of having more forests is non-existing. Not to mention the difficulty of collecting the corporate resources on the other continent.

    B&S a number of advantages.
    • More food
    • Always easy access to islands for 2:commerce:(potentially 3-4:commerce:) internal traderoutes.
    • Powerful GLH.
    • Extremely powerful Sushi (over 60:food: if you are lucky).
    • No need for early Compass, Optics and Astronomy (skipping these allows essential Biology bulb).
    • You never miss certain types of resources (even if something is missing on the mainland, you can always find it on the islands and get it connected without Astro). For example, in the recent 420 AD game I missed rice and it hurt a lot.

    • Terra has more land, but raising the domination limit is very difficult. I have a theory how it can be done but I'm yet to put it into practice.
    • Smaller distance maintenance.
    • Every AI always starts on the same continent (no Mansa out on the island). Also makes it easier to spread corporations to your main ~100 cities.
    My choice is B&S, Temperate, Tiny Islands, Islands Mixed In.

    Game Settings
    Aggressive AI. For faster peace/cease fire. Helps with worker-stealing and has some other uses.
    No Barbarians. There is no need for extra random and potentially harmful factors in a game that already requires some luck.
    No City Razing. There is rarely real need to raze a city, but there cases when a size 1 city is worth keeping. Even if can't keep it at present time, take it for conquest gold, chop if there are forests and give it away, take back when you can afford it. There are also cases for repeated city gifting for recapture, that better be size 1 city without any buildings. It includes (although I had not thought of it) raising domination limit as described by @Kaitzilla https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-iv-hall-of-fame-update-discussion.668880/#post-16066472
    Lock Modified Assets.

    Maximum number of AI's (14 for Large). I prefer Imperialistic, Financial, Industrious and Expansive because they help AI with expansion, teching and building useful stuff for me. Avoid Aggressive, Protective, Creative and major Oracle threats like Hatty or Gandhi.

    Civilization and leader.
    Julius the Stargazer of Rome. Rome is just a personal preference, several other civs can achieve great results. I think that Organized and Industrious are evenly matched. Organized is again just a personal preference.

    The start
    It does no look like much, either need third commerce recource or unreasonable amount of hut luck. Therefore I must move. Unfortunately, warrior can't reveal any relevant tile. I think there are two reasonable options to move: 2S or eastward.
    Civ4ScreenShot0000a.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

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  2. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    T0. Settler moves 2E1S for better overview.
    Spoiler :
    I wish stayed, but it was too much to hope that the only fogged tile would contain something good. Perhaps, I should go back?
    Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG


    T1. I settle and the villagers provide me with a scout.

    T4. My warrior enters a tribal village and after I swear to use their knowledge only for peaceful purposes they give me the secrets of
    Spoiler :
    Bronze:banana: I threw away all of my free BW starts in the past, except one AP game. Will it be the first HoF-worthy one for Space? Civ4ScreenShot0005.JPG

    Now I only need some workers to make use of the tech. I'll keep my word and use my shiny new axes only to chop wood. However, I can't promise that things won't get a bit more violent in the Iron Age:satan:

    Scout reveals that Mansa is next door.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG


    T5. I met Justinian. A close neighbour whom I would not mind killing early:thumbsup:. He just settled his second city. What does it mean? There must be some space between it and Constantinople. Odds on that I will find my first worker there. Selected Agriculture, not that there was a lot of choice.

    T8. Met Frederick.
    T9. Another hut in sight!
    T10. Justinian got there first:mad: Hello, Mansa:(
    T11. DoW on Justinian, first worker.
    T12. Met Roosevelt.

    This game is starting to look very good! Lack of food in the vicinity of Rome raises some concerns, though.
    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0017.JPG Civ4ScreenShot0018.JPG
     
  3. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    T14. Hi, Joao. How are your workers? Roosevelt's are well hidden:(
    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0022a.jpg

    T16. Made cease fire with Justinian. Worker is mining gems, it takes 12 turns and its 13 or 14 turns to Agri. Could not ask for better timing:thumbsup: I see Fred's culture just a couple of tiles from the warrior. It is a bit too far from Rome, but at least it will be safer.
    Spoiler :
    Not much food so far. Second warrior will scout south-west. Why did it take Mansa 10 turns to settle second city? Apparently, his first pick was stolen by another AI. There must be someone very close. Civ4ScreenShot0026.JPG
    Civ4ScreenShot0027a.jpg

    T20. Second worker. Frederick is building something big in Cologne, probably, another worker or a settler.
    T26. Buddhism has been founded in Thessalonica. Predictable, but still bad news.

    Met Willem, Lincoln, Bismarck, Peter, Darius, Elizabeth and Suleiman. That's 12 AIs already!
    Spoiler :
    I will try to get next worker from Joao or Willem. Better leave Justinian in peace because he is too close. Such risk would be quite unnecessary. Civ4ScreenShot0036.JPG

    T28. Agriculture. One turn sooner than I can start farming rice. Second worker will join the first one in a few turns. Rome is already working first gems. This is the advatage of gems over gold - you can grow on them, receiving considerable early commerce boost. All assuming that you have first worker early enough to mine gems before Agriculture.

    There is a good spot for second city but where will I settle the third? There is still unscouted area in the south-west. Scrap the game if no food there? I might play it at least util turn 100, before abondoning it. No coastal AI capitals nearby isn't a good thing either, I need an early boat for circumnavigation and a strong city for the GLH.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0040.JPG
     
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  4. Qactus

    Qactus Romani ite domum

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    Awesome! After seeing your Julius writeups on Small and Standard Terra I think you can certainly do it! Especially given that so far you apparently didn't use the trick to raise the domination limit with dead colonies.
    So let me wish you the best of luck and quote myself from a very very similar thread:
     
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  5. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    Now that I have the means (strong cap, workers, hut luck) and fair amount of information about the map I can make a touch more detailed plans.

    Now that have BW and can chop settlers - with Imperialistic it is like you have free Math - I need to choose spots for the next 2 or 3 cities, the 4th (5th) will claim iron unless it just happens to be on my territory. One spot is obvious - on the riverside spice with corn and 4 forests. Or should it be closer to Rome? Since random events are on it is a bit of a risk to stay at size 4 with Slavery once you hit Classical era (that will be at IW). I think it will be prudent to whip the last settler for iron; another city will be ready to pick up one of the gems by that time and no risk of slave revolt:thumbsup:

    But where to settle third city? There is PH with dry rice and 4 first-ring forests:undecide: I might consider borrowing rice from Rome and stagnating it for a while. Can't grow properly with 2 hill gems, anyway. I definitely need more food or at least floodplains, and since I won't have AH for a long time (t100 or something) it can't be pigs or cows. Of course, freshwater pigs/cows can be farmed but 4:food: is not much, unless there is more than one - 6:food: at size 2 is OK.

    Next tech is the Wheel, then Iron Working. Why not IW first? Mainly because I need roads to connect my cities. It is now perfectly clear that I won't have river connections here. On the other hand, there is no need to rush with Iron, which I won't be able to connect without roads anyway, unless I'm very lucky to have riverside iron. The only problem may AI stealing the only iron in the area. From this point I can estimate that IW is likely on turn 85. I should be ready to attack with 6-8 Praetorians by t100-105. What to research next is not clear. Probably, Pottery. Another option is Masonry for failgold from GW and because first AI to Alpha is likely to miss it.

    Next important milestone is Mathematics. I'd like to have it by t120 but it does not seem realistic, t125-130 is more likely. A lot depends on whether I will have to tech Writing. Math is important because it makes equation 1chop=1Praetorian, and it is the time to make some major failgold.
     
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  6. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    You moved away from the Corn, what magic is this to get a decent game after heresy like this :crazyeye: :nono: :lol:
     
  7. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    T32. I found another wet rice:banana:
    Together with farmed cows and 3 first-ring forests it makes an excellent 2nd city. Corn is unlikely to be stolen and therefore can wait.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0047a.jpg

    I took a worker from Willem and it upset him for some reason. He also just happened to have an archer near my border. Looks scary? DON'T PANIC, typical AI behavior is to park that archer somewhere in second ring, he will almost never attack unless tempted by a worker or warrior. Still, I deemed it prudent to adopt slavery right away (rice not improved yet). I'd rather not have him there until iron, so what do I do? Just make peace this very turn! How is that possible when AI is threatening my city? Three things I think:
    1. I'm threatening two of his cities.
    2. Willy lives far away. It makes AI much more willing to make peace.
    3. Willy is a good boy.
    Note that there is also a Russian archer nearby and a Skirmisher:rolleyes:
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0054.JPG

    T42. Scout reached dead end and I dismiss him, perhaps a bit prematurely. I check the presence of archers near Rome and steal another worker (4th) from Frederick. Met De Gaulle and Victoria. All 14 AIs are on the mainland! Great, I don't want anyone to miss the party!
    Spoiler :
    That does look good. Lincoln appears to be building a settler in New York.
    Civ4ScreenShot0078.JPG

    T46. The Wheel. Missed Lincoln's worker.
    T53. My calculations show that NY has 276:hammers: in something. Next turn it produced a settler. Does not AI receive a discount on settlers? It was not a whip either.
    Civ4ScreenShot0108a.jpg
    BTW, fifth worker.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0110.JPG

    T54. Another worker from Frederick.
    T55. A German archer shows up. Deja vu. Its great to have so many workers so early. I had workerturns to farm a grassland and prechop a forest.
    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0113a.jpg

    In other news: Liz opened borders! Turn 100 Alpha:bowdown:. Already -2 for "you declared war on our friend", I'd better be careful or she will not trade with me. On the whole, it is not as bad as one might expect after six worker steals.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0119a.jpg

    T57. I make peace with Frederick. The northern warrior over his 855 years long career brought me BW and 4 workers. Its time for well deserved retirement. Costs are down to -2gpt. I want to keep them low - there is a lot of teching to do. I counted worker turns and six workers will be enough to chop all my forests and build necessary improvements and a road from Rome to Paris by t100.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
  8. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    The secret is a very simple one. Once you are out of triple commerce starts, just go through that double commerce garbage as fast as possible and generate another batch of saves. Chance for such a start to be any good is very slim but there are a lot of them, hence there is no point spending more than just a few seconds thinking where to move. On second thought, 2S keeping corn is more sensible. The trouble is there was no second thought. But once you have your triple commerce with food and forests and a key tech from a hut it is important to slow down and switch into serious mode.
     
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  9. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    T59. Rome is size 4, working all 3 gems. Making 31bpt at -2gpt, IW probably sooner than t85.
    T61. First event: -1 diplo with Mansa. Good news: Mansa is on Writing! I will have early foreign traderouts with him.
    T63. First settler is out.
    T65. Antium has been founded. It begins building barracks. Three workers are farming rice. Making 33bpt at -3gpt.
    T66. I still need 2 more settlers and I have a problem with production. Rome can finish one in ~5 turns with two chops but what about next one? There two options. Build both settlers in Rome or one in Rome and another in Antium.

    Lets explore the first one. Rome already has 63:hammers: in a settler. Two chops is 180:hammers:, 1 pop is 135:hammers:. That is 600-63-180-135=222:hammers:. Rome makes 6*1.5+3=12:hammers: per turn. So 222/12=19 turns to get ready for the whip, that is t86 second settler. In the meanwhile, Antium can grow to size 4 and 2-pop whip barracks with 90:hammers: overflow into Praetorian. It will take 37+1 turn, that is t104 barracks. Not a bad timing, although it would push the attack date a bit further. On the downside I waste 58:hammers: invested in barracks in Rome.

    Antium grows in 14 turns and can whip a settler next turn with 2 chops. Then it will regrow, 1-pop whip barracks, then a Praetorian and build two more with three chops (two of them will be in the 3rd city's first ring). Rome can whip barracks with overflow into a Praetorian and whip another one at about t95. Third city can build two Praetorians with a chop and a whip. Thats five 3-exp and two 0-exp Praetorians by ~100 turn. I like this plan:thumbsup: I can't rely on the fourth city to produce anything, because it can be complete garbage, settled only to get iron.

    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0140.JPG
     
  10. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    T72. Cumae has been founded. Stole another worker from Lincoln. Paying 2:gold: for units and 4:gold: for cities now. He will scout out Peter's territory and then go home. The warrior will scout further west. I thought I would delete that warrior, but since Elizabeth opened borders I'd rather scout a bit more.

    T75. Bismarck has built the Great Wall. Thats way too soon. Well, you can't have it all your way.
    T76. Justinian opened borders. This is interesting, where is his religious flavour? I has not been banking on this, it will take a while to build the road. Justinian and Mansa hate each other because the latter founded Hinduism (both give each other -1 for holy city). That may cause complications.

    Mansa found horses! It means that I will have to build just one road.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0193a.jpg

    Damn it, Peter, settle with food in the first ring why can't you? Its good he settled with copper in second ring, though. Nice coastal silver with forests. I will need it one day.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0195.JPG


    T81. Iron Working
    Remember I went away from corn? That was nothing. Prepare for a shock.
    Spoiler :
    On turn zero I walked away from BFC riverside iron:aargh:
    Civ4ScreenShot0206.JPG

    SiP had one serious but unpredictable downside - both rice spots would be in danger and I might have lost one of them to AI. Anyway, the settler will be ready on the next turn; I choose to settle 1E of the iron. This way I can work iron for 2:food:4:hammers:1:commerce: and borrow gems when necessary.

    T82. Mansa finished Writing but won't open borders (worst enemy). His next tech is Alphabet:woohoo:

    Now I must plan further teching at least until Math. To do it I have to do some Math, or rather make Excel do it because I'm too lazy.
    Second column is turn number, third is bpt minus costs, fourth is accumulated beakers. Positive numbers in the first column is conquest gold, -283 is Pottery and -1138 is Math. All multipliers are included. Default cost of Math is 1365:science:. Having Writing as a prerequisite makes it 1365/1.2=1138 raw beakers. This is assuming free Writing, which I will almost certainly have.
    t82plan.jpg
     
  11. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    That's what I was thinking - but that was taking the time to stare at one start, I know what you mean about just getting through them quickly.
     
  12. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    The plan outlined above includes 5 cities captured by t121, bringing total to 9. That is not much but it should be enough to be begin with. I will need a few good cities with spare population and forests to build more Praetorians, take more good cities and keep this snowball rolling.

    T87. I had Hindu spread. More civs opening borders. With foreign trade and 4th city bpt jumps to 43, costs are -9gpt.

    The scouting worker found a settler party on the way home. I considered settling on this stone but could not afford another settler. Now De Gaulle will do it for me. I doubt he will settle on the stone. However, I do hope he will settle with it in first ring.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0232.JPG


    T89. Elizabeth's got Alpha:banana:
    T90. Pottery, Writing (trade).
    Civ4ScreenShot0244a.jpg
    Poly but no PH:thumbsup: She will give me only Writing and Hunting for IW. It would be nice to have AH but that would cost me some 200:science: and risk of missing the deal altogether. I can't afford those beakers in any case - my research plan is too tight. I also must avoid hunting because I will need warriors for police duties. Thus, its just IW for Writing.

    T93. Preparations are in full swing. First Praetorian is scouting Mali and France. Should I whip Rome now? I think I'll let it work a farm for ~5 turns. Now I can oficially anounce that the party begins on turn 106. The band is nearly ready, they will be 8 professionals arm.. I mean playing with swords:band:

    T94. Slave revolt in Rome:hammer2:. Not to worry, your wise Caesar had the gold to fix this unpleasant situation. However, he is sorry to say that the band will be one short, but don't be discouraged, the show is still going to be fun.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0262.JPG

    This actually could be a problem if it was not for my first 4 planned tar.. participants missing metals. De Gaulle does not even have BW.

    T105. I found Lisbon. It has 524:hammers: in something. Must be Mids or Artemis. De Gaulle still has no BW, meaning that he can't whip away my population or chop my forests. There is 1 archer in Orleans and 3 in Paris. Odds for 5 Praets vs 3 archers are 99%, average losses - 0.5 units. Odds for 2 CR1 Praets vs 1 archer are 100%.

    T106. The great party begins in France!

    T107. Orleans is size 3, Paris is size 5 and retains its granary:banana: I'm 220:gold: and 1 worker up but lost a Praetorian.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0312.JPG


    T110. Performance in Lyons brings another worker and 33:gold:. Lost another Praetorian:cry: On the whole, the tour in France was quite a success. I think Paris really needs barracks - we don't need more amatures in our band do we?

    Checked Lisbon again - 660:hammers:. This is 136/5=27:hammers: per turn. Not a bad rate.
     
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  13. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    By turn 113 Liz acquired Sailing, Meditation (98), Masonry (103), Monotheism (113). That puts her average bpt at 40-50. It seems perfectly normal for a Financial Deity AI with BFC gold.

    Next stop is Novgorod. The road is being built and Orleans has just whipped its second Praetorian, third will be finished with a math chop. Paris is untouched because I need :science:.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0343.JPG

    Lisbon - 830:hammers:. I need to hurry up if I want failgold from Mids, which it must be. I need Masonry and for that I need...

    Mansa is getting close to Alphabet. My power is 1.9833 of his. Just as a matter of curiosity, how much I could beg/demand from him? Let's see: 119000 soldiers, 104 turns known, land target and financial trouble... 421:gold: or 505:science::eek: May be, I got it wrong? This is important, because I will need a demand to secure peace treaty.
    Civ4ScreenShot0345.jpg
    Moscow is very good, Novgorod isn't bad with its 4 forests and a floodplain, but apart from that... Almost forgot, Moscow will build a boat for circumnavigation! In this context its interesting that Roosevelt put a coastal city with a forest not too far away (to the east from Rome). I could use it to build a boat. Better than spend 200:hammers: on a settler. It is also some 10 tiles farther east than Moscow. Better role for Moscow will be building a galley. There are islands near Moscow and New York can whip a couple of settlers. I want to Oracle Currency about t140 and with ~20 cities there may not be enough cities in other civs for all of mine to have 2:commerce: traderoutes.
    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0348a.jpg

    T116. Willem got Alpha, but won't trade. He is still pissed off about that worker. He does not even have Mysticism.

    Peter's archer is still here under pretence of sightseeing:rolleyes: Just who does he think he is trying to fool?
    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0358a.jpg

    T118. Mysticism (trade).
    Darius and Justinian got Alpha. The latter has Priesthood:run: I check his cities: no meaningful amount of hammers in Constantinople or Thessalonica but he has 2 more cities which I haven't located yet. I trade Pottery to Justinian for Mysticism.

    The Russian tour begins: 6 Praets will take care of Novgorod and 4 visit SP, then they will go to Moscow.

    T119. Third Praetorian died in Novgorod, but otherwise it was very smooth. I gained another worker (tenth) and 206:gold:.

    T120. Math, Alphabet, Polytheism, AH.
    Nobody is willing to trade Sailing. May be, I can get it from Peter? I'll have to get rid of the sightseeing archer first.

    Joao does not have Poly => he is building Mids.
    Spoiler Tech :
    Civ4ScreenShot0411a.jpg


    Currently I have 9 cities, 10 workers, 11 Praetorians and 2 warriors. Making 62:science: and bleeding 51:gold:.

    For comparison:
    I'm somewhat behind but well prepared to catch up. Besides, being highly organized Julius regards 100:gold: costs at 10 cities as prepostrerous. What does he think about the army of 18 Quechua?
    Spoiler :

    Caesar.jpg
     
  14. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    The Oracle
    There are two sources of Marble I can realistically use. One is under Cologne up north, another is near New York. There is a chance that the latter has been ruined by awkward AI city placement (this is how 'no city razing' can backfire) and I will need a settler and a bunch of workers there to build a quarry quickly. The only suitable city is Paris, but I want it to whip barracks first (5->3) and build two Praetorians with overflow and a chop. It will need 5 or 6 turns to regrow, then a couple of turns to prepare settler for a 2-pop whip (30/300). This t135 marble at best. Of course, I could use another chop to speed up the settler (no regrowth needed). Cologne is too far away. I don't even have the means to take it.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0402.JPG


    Another problem is Justinian - the only possessor of Priesthood. I have to do something about it. I want my main force to take care of the wonderland on the screenshot above, and it is too far south to go and pay visit to Justinian, anyway. I squeezed everything from my core cities, but recent border pops and Math brought new possibilities.

    Antium suddenly has three 90:hammers: chops. With a whip it can build 4 Praetorians in quick succession. Cumae will expand its borders in 5 turns and have 2 chops, I don't want to whip away food or gems, though. There is already one Praetorian next to Rome, that makes it 7, including 5 with 3 experience points. I'd rather not whip away iron in Neapolis and waiting for 10 turn is too much. That is it then, seven. This may not be enough to take even Constantinople (flat but 40%:culture: soon). Thessalonica is 40%+hill, better just skip. So, what can I do, bring reinforcements from Paris? Not necessarily, there is Great General coming! Thats free promotion for each of the 7 Praetorians and I can attach him to a warrior and upgrade him to axe free of charge. Great trait Imperialistic.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0394.JPG


    Will it be sustainable? I think it will. Constantinople alone may bring over 150:gold: then there are two small and probably poorly protected cities. That's another 100:gold:. Then I can give them away if can't afford to keep them. Alright, I need 7-8 turns to prepare then ~5 turns to reach Constantinople. If I go straight to Cologne after that it will be 6 more turns. T140 Marble? No, this is not good enough. Even if the Oracle is not built by this time, how am I to survive that long without Currency?

    Joao is building Mids! The rate he is going he will finish it in 16 turns. I need Masonry ASAP to make use of it. If it works out I won't really need failgold from the Oracle, in which case I can simply chop it in Novgorod.

    Edit: 10 workers feels like several times fewer than I need:lol:
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2021
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  15. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,071
    Considering that in Classical era AI has 5% discount for everything (including WW) and it can whip wonders, I have less than 16 turns. Besides, Joao can chop. Then there is a chance Justinian will rush the Oracle. This can turn ugly:(

    The 'sightseeing' archer forces me to make cease fire with Peter. It does hurt my progress because Praetorians need a bit of healing, but every DoW has diplomatic repercussions and I'm not quite at the point when I no longer care for diplo.

    Turn 121 starts with gifting Alpha to Mansa. Next turn he is teching Sailing. Could be worse. Priesthood, for instance.

    With all the action going on I need to be careful not to have other AIs bribed on me. Not that they can hurt me, but I do need traderoutes and tech trading. Who can Peter bribe when I DoW him again? Suleiman, Bismarck and Mansa. He could tempt them with Sailing. I doubt it will be enough, exept may be, Mansa - land target. I can't make a demand being his worst enemy:sad: Adopt Hindu just to please him? Or give Math? How likely is that partly researched Sailing will make sufficient bribe:dunno:

    There is more danger with Lincoln. Masonry+Sailing is a lot and many AIs miss one or both of them. It seems there is no foolproof way to avoid trouble. Just another reason to settle island city within next 10 turns, followed by another as soon as I have Currency.

    T123. Mids in Lisbon are 1102/1425, just a bit more than a 3-pop whip:please: DoW Peter.
    T124. Peter bribes Mansa:cry: Mansa is teching Masonry.
    Lost traderoutes have immediate impact on my economy. Fortunately, Roosevelt trades Sailing, and thats the problem solved. However, later I will have to find a way of getting Mansa to tech trading again, if he ever gets anything useful.

    T125.
    I bribe Suleiman on Peter; need to make sure he won't interfere while I'm dealing with Lincoln. DoW on Lincoln.

    Moscow has 5 archers (were just 2 a few turns ago:() and 5 Praetorians attack. The fifth looses at 95% odds:cry:. What is more, the archer survives with 100% health:eek: Next turn he has CG2 but I win a 49% fight.

    After loosing a Skirmisher and 2 scouts Mansa agrees to make peace. Yes, I need 10 turns of peace, not cease fire.

    New York is mine, mine, mine!!! With 6 pop, granary, 2 workers and 155:gold: bonus:banana:
    What will Lincoln give me for peace? Nothing. If threaten one of his cities? Still nothing. Two? He will give Hunting! But I don't need Hunting, I need Masonry. Is it urgent? No, because the Pyramids have been built in Lisbon:wallbash: May be, I will have it from Mansa (turns6)?

    Now I need a break, because I haven't got a clue how to proceed.
     
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  16. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,071
    Everything revolves around this marble.
    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0457a.jpg

    Lincoln has already built a quarry, that will save me a hell of lot of worker-turns. Paris can whip a settler on the next turn, then its 4 turns to move. Settling on t131 if I chop the forest in time or settle on the corn. The former, I think. Chances that AI will ruin this plan by settling 2 tiles away from the marble? There actually was a Suleiman's settler party a few turns ago in New York! That settler has been wandering in this area for 15-20 turns now, no idea what he is up to.

    Assuming that everything is fine and I have marble on turn 131, what can I do with it?
    NY: whip a settler with 100 overflow + chop =190:hammers:=380:gold:
    Paris: 90 overflow + chop =180:hammers:=360:gold:
    Orleans: 36 overflow + chop + 2:hammers:=128:hammers:=256:gold:
    Lyons: 30 overflow + 2chops+1:hammers:=211:hammers:=422:gold:
    SP: chop+4:hammers:=94:hammers:=188:gold:

    This is 1606:gold: prepared over 5 turns. A few other cities can add some 400:gold:. This should be enough to tech Aesthetics. Then I can do the Parthenon or Shwedagon Paya, unless I see someone building Artemis.
     
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  17. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    T127. Oh, not again. Slave revolt in New York:mad: But since it has been just catured it is already in disorder. What will happen if I choose not to act? It adds one turn of disorder:sad:
    T128. Made peace with Lincoln for Masonry. I pay 1 pop and 10:gold: to stop the revolt.
    T129. Another slave revolt in NY. Thats another unit of population and 10:gold: lost[pissed]Now New York is down to size 4 and still has 6 turns of disorder ahead. Can I have my Sports League in compensation for this outrage, please?

    T131. Priesthood.
    I've got marble:banana:

    I found Justinian's new cities. He still does not have more than ~60:hammers: in any of them, but he is about to mine his iron. This will be my first target then. After that I can take Constantinople with reinforcements. I have a shock promoted Praetorian for stack protection in case Justinian manages to build some axemen during his short-term possession of iron.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot0513.JPG
     
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  18. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    Next targets are Liz and Justinian, widely liked AIs with monopoly techs. Declaring war on both begs for a dogpile, doesn't it? I particularly want to be safe from Roosevelt, he has metals and can mess up my plans in the north, while my forces there are just sufficient to break Justinian (10 Praets with GG).

    T132. I demand clam from Roosevelt, and he hands it over. DoW on Elizabeth. Bribe Suleiman with Polytheism on her. May be, she will bribe somebody on him, rather me:mischief: And so she does! Next turn Mansa and Frederick declare war on Suleiman:goodjob: Took Hastings and London and made peace for Meditation. I think I will finish off Lincoln and then Suleiman, before I turn northwest.
    Spoiler :
    Philadelphia is still protected only by two archers. Hill and walls are a bit discouraging, but I have a couple of CR3 Praets ready.
    Civ4ScreenShot0594a.jpg


    T136. DoW on Justinian. It was easy - only archers and chariots. I love it when AI has horses. Took Nicaea and Constantinople, snatched a worker with a 2:move: Praetorian and made cease fire to heal up.

    Mansa asks Math, should I give it to him? I'd sure like to fix diplo. The only concern is that he may steal the Hanging Gardens. When am I going to build it? About t160 at ~30 cities seems like a good target. I still need to hook up stone, there is one I can settle upon. The HG is not very small and requires aqueduct. Yes, I think I'll give him Math.

    T141. Settled first island city on silver with two forests. No food but I need :) and traderoutes. The Oracle is due in 3 turns with 1718:gold:. Less than I expected, mostly because of ludicrous mishap in New York. Only two granaries: in Paris and New York. Terrible luck. At 18 cities I have 115bpt (building a few:science:) and -173 expenses. I think Metal Casting is out of question. It costs 487 base beakers more, but delaying Currency even by 10 turns would cost me over 360:gold: from traderoutes alone.

    What would you do with this chop? I considered adding 182:hammers: to the Oracle, but I really want to grow. Besides, delaying Currency hurts.
    Spoiler :

    Civ4ScreenShot0606a.jpg


    Spoiler Statistics T141 :

    Civ4ScreenShot0604.JPG
     
  19. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

    Joined:
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    I need to outline a bigger plan, at least until corporations.

    The key tech is Banking. This is when I start first Golden Age and switch civics. That should happen around turn 210. I will need Philosophy or Shwedagon Paya for Pacifism. I prefer Paya: it costs less than Philo (less delay of Banking) and I can use it for Wonderbread. I'd like to skip Music and tech it later, but getting 100% GE as second Great Person is rather difficult without Mids, although not excluded yet. I will consider it later, when things become more clear.

    Why is Banking so important? Because it is the key economic tech. At ~50 cities Mercantilism provides a 300:science: boost with Caste and 200:science: without. I intend to spend much of this GA in Caste to produce 2 GP for the next one. The third will be Taj. These three will carry me to t285. Last time I had Mining on t283, in this game I want it on t275 or sooner. Next 3-GP Golden Age will effectively cost only 2 GP, since there is no other use for Communism GSpy. Yes, want to use Kremlin this time, and spend more time in slavery, building executives and factories with Kremlin-powered whips. Even Organized factories are very big. There are other uses. Preparing overwhipped stuff for overflow gold to fund corp spreads while in strike, for instance.

    Producing 100% Great Engineer for Mining is very straightforward. If I proceed with t160 Hanging Gardens and tech Aesthetics and MC, then I will have 2 engineer GPP starting from t160. Finishing the Parthenon and building forge will boost it 7 GPP per turn. By t210 it will be 2*20+7*30=250:gp: out of 300:gp: for first Great Person. I think there is a good chance to have both the Parthenon and forge sooner. I might even consider delaying the HG a bit, if I'm about to settle/conquer a few more cities.

    I will also need Calendar for resources and MoM, Construction for Catapults and CoL for Caste and courthouses. May be, Mansa will tech one of these for me. I'll give him Currency as soon as I have it. Engineering for movent is interesting. I don't know if its worth it delaying Banking for that.
     
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  20. gavenkoa

    gavenkoa Prince

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    What did make you think so? You put all 4 spy points on him?
     

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