Non-Incan Deity BC Space

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Anysense, Apr 3, 2021.

  1. NothingBesideRemains

    NothingBesideRemains Chieftain

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    Yeah you're right; I've now tested it and getting 300 GPP on turn 1 just gives you 1 GP and overfills your bar by 200, so you get another one the following turn.

    From a maximization standpoint, that means the goal is just lowest # of turns to 100. In the event that flipping the city and reverting it takes time, might want to consider stretching for 300 or 600 points to get 2 or 3 GP before flipping.

    I did some messing around in worldbuilder, and it it seems it is common but not guaranteed for an AI to use a specialist if they are on a single tile island with no resources. So with no special buildings, you could get an 'easy' 6 points per turn with just mercantalism and caste (9 turns with a philosophical/pacifist civ, or 6 turns with both) or 3 points per turn with just caste, for an earlier attempt.

    This is significantly worse than throwing in the GL with a GE. Including 1 working specialist, that would be 11 GPP, which would be 10 turns, or 5 turns with pacifism / philosophical civ. This also needs a library, so creative civ would really help if this going to be on a single tile island. Or a swap to US from the mids to buy the library. Benefit here is that it negates the need for putting the AI in caste, so they can't run GA's on you.

    And if you build the GL very early like this (with GE from a prioritized pyramids), you're going to want to get at least 1 G Sci out of it first - likely to bulb pacifism, or even 2 to do 1 bulb into education while the city swaps into power. So, after building the GL, I say you might as well build the NE while you wait. Would require some form of hammer of course, and most likely marble, but could be workable in theory, as arranging things to swap will take a bit of time anyway.

    So, 13 base GPP might be the thing to shoot for. That's 8 from GL, 2 from NE, and 3 from a worked specialist. After the NA benefit, it becomes a 4 turn GP without pacifism/philosophical, or a 3 turn GP with either, or a 2-turn with both. If you are still doing this by the time you grab banking, 16 base GP with mercantalism becomes 2 turns with pacifism/philosophical leader.

    Getting from 1 GP every 2 turns to 1 GP/ turn is a pretty big delay, probably a longer delay than just running the 1-per-2-turns method for twice as long, so I doubt that makes sense (needing the 8x16 worker turns for the forest preserves doesnt help either).Of course, if this is actually possible to do reliably, you could do both.

    Final math: can this work just on G Merchants for some extra cash? For that prupose, I think a 'mega' city isnt as good (no academy + oxford multipliers), so you'd want this with simple buildings only (ideally, buy with US).

    Ideally, especially given the civ at hand, it would be a Roman forum. Build one of those, and either work out how to have the civ work 2 specialists, or use mercantalism. 6 base GP points, x 125% after the forum, gives you 13 net points, which is a GP every 8 turns (without a forum, 12 net points needs 9 turns, so does shave a turn off). If you had 8 of these going at once, there's your 1 GM / turn.

    Still not sure how to force the creation of a colony owning this yoj could attack, but it seems this is a known method; going to try and set that up in WB the next time I have some spare Civ time again.
     
  2. happysheep

    happysheep Chieftain

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    For the great merchant idea I think either that or the great scientist bulb really sounds practical for a Mara deity space game-don’t forget, if you are playing on deity, the AI get *40%* off great people points needed I think, so you would only need 180 for marathon. You could just give a desert city to the newly created colony by another civ and take all their other cities, leaving that one alone - you could then make peace and have your temple of Artemis city not far away and with road. You would then get 2700 gold on marathon, and the whole process should take:
    10 turns for GM with pacifism/philosophical
    2-3 turns for great merchant movement and cashing in
    For more than TWO HUNDRED GPT just from some random desert city. Retaking it would be Super ez as it wouldn’t quite have anything inside-it would take more than13 turns to make a longbow with a desert city at 1 prod/turn
    To make sure they work merchants and not Scientists you could have a market inside - ~5-10 chops possibly from ouside the city BFC or not inside the cultural borders should do it-then when they cash it in, take their last city on the island they were created and steal all their gold from a spy in the desert city - now you could repeat this whole setup multiple times with the same 4 or 5 cities on the island, with one desert city or some other city with useless tiles to work-if u can’t find one you could just give them an ordinary city and declare war, sending warriors and workers and scouts to stand on the tiles they might want to work instead of a merchant-and that city would generate 200 gpt for you.
    Or you could have a library instead of a market, give them the techs they need to bulb whatever tech u want and make sure you get the bulb priorities right so that they bulb the correct techs-with one bulb they could get 4500 beakers on Mara-but they are a deity AI and thus a tech that costs 7500 beakers would be bulbable by them, making for up to SEVEN HUNDRED AND FIFTY BPT from that one city

    Now all you need for these is just a few cities on an off-island settler by ai that you can conquer-or you could settle your own, and the temple of artemis-then you can start turning the cities around the temple of Artemis (or just about anywhere if you are going for a GS instead) into 200 gold per turn or 750 beakers per turn cities with a few chops for a library/market
    I could see that being doable by turn 200-say with just three of those (though you could to much more), one could generate up to 36000 gold or 135,000 beakers by turn 260 - assuming you were doing 3000 bpt by then you could save up to 40 turns to mining -realistically more like 15 maybe and get t260 mining or something.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
  3. happysheep

    happysheep Chieftain

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    Only thing to do is find a way to ascertain the they don’t just settle it - shouldn’t be much a problem with GM, never seen one before from an ai I think-you might have to get a great spy to use the merchant idea thought, or just use mamas Musa as the creator-but that would make him angry

    Just putting my idea out here - please forgive me if I am being woefully ignorant, it has been a Long time since I last went for a science victory, never played a HOF game before
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
  4. NothingBesideRemains

    NothingBesideRemains Chieftain

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    Right, my math was all based on standard size /normal speed / human factor. The key would be lining up the breakpoints to not overdo effort for minimal impact.

    As for how to try and control what the AI does with the G people, I presume that would need a fair bit of testing; I assume tech preferences based on civ personality would have an impact on whether they bulb or not, too.
     
  5. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    Nothing interesting happened, the most exciting event was my confusing Mining executive with Sushi one. Long story short:
    T310 Physics
    T311
    4551:science:
    T312 Golden Age is over but it was not relevant for research which keeps going up - 7029:science:
    T313 Electricity
    T314
    9421 :science:
    T315 11825:science: I collect 5 more Sushi resources on this turn - 43:food:!
    T316 Radio

    I thought that Rome would build Apollo and Lisbon - Christo Redentor, but it will have to be the other way round, because Rome is just not strong enough. This way Rome can build Christo a couple of turns sooner than I need it and Lisbon will finish Apollo one turn before Semiconductors, in case I get it sooner than anticipated.

    I should consider the possibility that I might be able to do Ecology->Genetics in 2 turns but Genetics->Ecology only in 3 turns, due to very unfortunate amount of overflow. I can happen with bpt over 21450, and the higher beaker output is the wider is the range of overflow when it can happen. Lisbon will need nearly 600:hammers: overflow to do Stasis in one turn, I prepared Notre Dame there but it only allows 550:hammers: and I must not forget to get rid of marble. I think Fusion GE can solve this problem, rush Rock-n-Roll, for instance - 800 base hammers with Ironworks. Great Engineer can rush 1500+60*population on Marathon, so it requires only size 15 for 2400:hammers:.

    Almost done with spreading. About 145 cities will have Mining and some 110 - Sushi. Population is over 700, been gaining about 50 every turn since I stopped whipping, almost double in just 7 turns!

    Next turn I will net another fish bringing Sushi to 44:food: and that's that, at least until I start building workshops over rice farms.

    It has been too hot for a while now, and they promise over 35C for several days in a row. This is just not the kind of weather in which I can play. May be, in a week or two I'll be back, if I survive, of course.
     
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  6. NothingBesideRemains

    NothingBesideRemains Chieftain

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    This is the key! Gift a city with a couple of food resources, and stand on every other tile after DOW! No choice but to work specialists! Risk I see would be: do they work citizens, especially for the production? Also they might whip troops, meaning regrowth between flips might be needed.

    Still, having a city with, say, even 2 clams would allow 3 specialists at minimal cost, so this would theoretically be easier to multiply across multiple sites.

    Like you, Ive never done a HoF run, but I'm very intrigued by the possibility raised in the thread. Lots of tiny micromanagement involved that is well beyond my abilities!
     
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  7. Imploding

    Imploding Warlord

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    Care to share demo screens and the production, gdp, reseach, graphs? Fun to see the how crazy the development takeoff is :)
     
  8. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    Sure. Curiously, GNP is positive again. Rocketry is 3 turns away, by the looks of it. The pace is getting a bit scary.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot3715.JPG Civ4ScreenShot3716.JPG Civ4ScreenShot3717.JPG
     
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  9. happysheep

    happysheep Chieftain

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    If you bribe them into caste, they won’t switch for the next 25 turns(I think)
    You could bribe them into pacifism, mercantilism and stateRel switch, using some random semi expensive tech . So long they don’t give it to their master for free, it should be infinitely renewable
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2021
  10. happysheep

    happysheep Chieftain

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  11. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    The usual BUG+BULL combo or BAT mod should provide the same functionality, except there won't overflow gold. I'm not sure, though, haven't used them for years. Why don't you just use BUFFY if that is the case?
     
  12. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    [offtopic] I think it's only 10 turns, and if they're Spiritual, only 5 turns!
    You're thinking if they choose to change on their own. Then it's 25 turns.
     
  13. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    I'm not in the best shape but I have to finish this game sometime before next year. There is not much left to do, just finish building factories and power and some libraries. And, of course, prepare spaceship parts. Anyway, the number of cities requiring attention every turn is decreasing. So...

    T317 Rifling, 14919:science:
    With 115th resource Sushi becomes 44:food:, reaching its maximum in this game. I need to remember to give away oil once I have Combustion, as I have a city right upon it.

    T318 Artillery, 17984:science:
    Horrible mess. I have to make a bit of a squeeze to get Rocketry in 1 turn.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot3719.JPG


    T319 Rocketry, 17170:science:
    Hamburg (NE city) finished forum, it should be able to produce another 95% GS by t230. I misscalculated and lost 2 executives next turns. Well, that puts end to spreading to islands; a few mainland cities still need Mining or Sushi.

    T321 Industrialism, 17585:science:
    I have 4 sources of aluminium already connected! For the game engine it was t320 when I got Industrialism and aluminium. The effect is that the previous turn production for Apollo recieves 100% boost. Nearly all my workers are still alive, as keep building workboats. Turns out it was a waste of worker turns, preparing mines on hills that might contain aluminium; I did not expect workers to stay around that long.

    At 75.73%/76% land I decide to make another colony. Welcome back, Elizabeth!

    Not a bad bpt, considering that several cities are still building stuff.
    Spoiler :
    Civ4ScreenShot3767.JPG

    T322 Combustion, 18987:science:
    Final spreads are done: 144 cities have Mining and 99 have Sushi. Somewhat less than planned but it will have to do.

    T323, 19474:science:
    Workers are starting to disappear. Collected another fish, it does not do anything now but it will help to keep Sushi at 44 when I build a workshop over rice near Coimbra.

    Christo Redentor has been built in Rome. I will need it for 1 turn of slavery+OR and othet manipulations with civics, and it reminds me that Hamburg will have one turn of slavery too. Meaning that GS will come no sooner than T331 and this is too late even for Fusion.

    T324 Plastics, 21048:science:
    Nearly done preaparing industrial parks and hospitals, which will be whipped along with laboratories. Since the Kremlin is obsolete with Fiber Optics and it comes 2 turns after Superconductors, I will have just one turn to prepare laboratories. Hence, I also have to prepare observatories to be finished with sufficient overflow into labs.

    T325 Computers, 21004:science:
    I've just remembered: get rid of damn oil! I ought to have set a reminder, it is that simple:hammer2:

    T326
    Another nasty event: buildings in Maastricht (one of the casing cities) are destroyed by flooding. Luckily, those are granary and courthouse - quite irrelevant at this point in the game.

    T327 Superconductors, Apollo, 18493:science:
    Thruster cities start building their parts right away. There is no point in labs, because they cost more hammers than the amount they save on building such small parts, not to mention observatories. They are good even for larger parts only because they can be built before those parts become available and because labs, being large, are convenient for preparing overflow.

    Switching to slavery+OR causes bpt to drop by 2700. It goes up nearly 500 after I visit every city to adjust tiles and specialists.

    Even in slavery Hamburg can hire quite a few specialists. True, they would have caused contamination, but so what? It would still have been about 95% scientist. Guess what? Hamburg can hire just enough specialists to produce exactly 4200:gp: by t330 if only I switched to Pacifism the turn I finished Christo! Certainly, it would cost me a few thousand beakers due to lack of Free Religion for several turns, but a 95% chance to get ~15000:science: bulb is worth it. When Fusion is coming? Probably, turn 331. Apparently, I missed a worthy gamble here. Damn it, I did not even consider using undesirable specialists to make up for deficit during slavery window, being so much used to avoiding them.

    On the whole its going OK, just hope there will be no slave revolts in cities building spaceship parts. Its only one turn of slavery, but you know how 'lucky' I am.
     
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  14. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Libraries? They don't do anything when building research.
     
  15. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    Well, not many, I built only 21 libraries. They are okay when you hire 10+ scientists. I built only about 200 workshops, thats nowhere near enough to occupy 1268 citizens, and still gaining 30-40 pop every turn. Quite a few cities will reach size 15+ with only a couple of workshops in BFC. May be, next time I will make effort to get more than measly 100 workers.
     
  16. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    I suppose. That would pay off after only 6 turns
     
  17. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    On Normal speed, 18 on Marathon. Could not have more libraries because research will be done some time before turn 340.
     
  18. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    I've just had a look at what you built in your game. There were 31 libraries! And I thought that 21 was an overkill. There are more interesting things to compare. For example, you had spread Mining only to 128 cities, 16 less when I did. This is very odd, as spreading Mining is the best kind of ivestition there is. Perhaps, spreading was hampered by smallish mainland? Mine housed all starting civs and it was huge, something with which I got very lucky indeed.
     
  19. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Libraries are fine if you build them early. I was only questioning building more in the late-game. It would be good to see more comparisons of our games.
     
  20. Anysense

    Anysense Emperor

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    It's been nearly four months since I finished this game, but I haven't finished the write up. I was so happy that this micromanagement nightmare - not at all alleviated by regular crashes - was over, and so preoccupied with my other persuits, that I had never come back to finish the writing after one attemp. Of course, anyone can tell when the spaceship was launched and not go wrong by more than 1 turn...

    May be, in a few days time I will finish it. There is not much to dig into: only 145 screenshots cover the endgame.
     
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